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Old 2010-05-18, 22:04   Link #10181
Judoh
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Occam's razor

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), is the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician, theologian and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity")[2]. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (translating to the law of parsimony, law of economy or law of succinctness). When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."[3]

In science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic (rule of thumb) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models.[4][5] In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.[6][7][8][9]

EDIT: In mysteries solutions are usually so simple and obvious that you usually wouldn't notice them on the first read.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:07   Link #10182
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Occam's razor

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), is the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician, theologian and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity")[2]. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (translating to the law of parsimony, law of economy or law of succinctness). When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."[3]

In science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic (rule of thumb) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models.[4][5] In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.[6][7][8][9]
But in Umineko we are mostly assuming everything...
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:11   Link #10183
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Once again, Occam's Razor on Shkanon. It needlessly complicates things, requires several additional explanations to reconcile its existence, and is totally unnecessary for all mysteries. It's so unlikely that Natsuhi would allow a fake servant to exist on her schedule. Therefore, it's much more likely that she didn't because Kanon is real.
Actually Occam's razor is in favor of shkanon.
It is by far a simpler explanation of EP6 than any other theory so far.

With a single theory you explain:

- why there are only 17 persons including erika

- how kanon managed to escape from the sealed room

- how kanon disappeared from the closed room

- why kanon and shannon are "less than human"

- why it's impossible for both the george-shannon and jessica-kanon couples to be together.



without shkanon you need

One theory explaining how it is possible that Erika doesn't exist.

One theory explaining how kanon escaped from the sealed room (usually Kanon-Kinzo)

One theory explaining how Kanon "magically" disappeared from the closed room

One theory explaining the meaning of the whole "love test".


that's four theories in place of one. But the most relevant thing is that it is a fact that EP6 heavily hints shkanon in several occasions from the start to the end. Even those who do not like the shkanon theory recognize that, although they claim it is a troll.

It might be a troll, but following Occam's razor logic it is a lot easier that things are exactly as they appears rather than there is some kind of conspiracy to make them seem that way when they are not.


You can say that this is a fictional story and therefore Occam's razor logic doesn't work in this contest (which is perfectly reasonable as Oliver explained), but not that Occam's razor works against the shkanon theory.
As difficult as it is to explain the shkanon theory, the other options are even more complex.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:12   Link #10184
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
But in Umineko we are mostly assuming everything...
Now we are not Quit making stuff up. We have to take the context of the white red and blue and gold text into account as well as the hints in the story. Hints =/= assumptions. And most of the theories here are based on clues. Shkanon makes quite a lot of assumptions that something is true based on a a couple of hints. So does Erika not existing, but that requires less assumptions. Kanon escaping the location check is an entirely different thing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
without shkanon you need

One theory explaining how it is possible that Erika doesn't exist.

One theory explaining how kanon escaped from the sealed room (usually Kanon-Kinzo)

One theory explaining how Kanon "magically" disappeared from the closed room

One theory explaining the meaning of the whole "love test".
Erika ghost and Kanon rescuing Battler are two completely different things. One is just more complicated then the other.

Here is my claim. I don't need to automatically explain why Kanon was able to do it. The fact is that it was proclaimed that Kanon rescued Battler in red. So either no hints are required to come to the conclusion that Kanon rescued Battler or there must exist hints that we are not seeing due to Knox's 8th. This is true with and without Shkanon.

How he disappeared from the closed room is a moot point.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:16   Link #10185
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Occam's razor

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), is the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.
*snip*
Long and complicated line of text, which due to being very tired, I'm not sure I completely understood. Let me take a pot-shot and see how far I'm off.
In the area of theory, Occam's Razor states that the guy who makes a reasonable hypothesis using the least amount of assumptions wins.
Related to Umineko, the theory which uses the least amount of assumption-based evidence and relies more on truth we can rely on, like the red, is the stronger and more reasonable theory.
From my anti-Shkanon point of view, it doesn't support Shkanon very much, since a lot of the background Shkanon evidence is based off of assumptions.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:22   Link #10186
Jan-Poo
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Any theory is based on assumptions, but as you said the one that wins is the one that explain most with less.

You are just looking at one side of the problem if you stop at the part where Shkanon needs too many assumptions and difficult explanations.

Once you realize that, you should ask yourself if then there is another explanation that requires less assumptions.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:23   Link #10187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Now we are not Quit making stuff up. We have to take the context of the white red and blue and gold text into account as well as the hints in the story. Hints =/= assumptions. And most of the theories here are based on clues. Shkanon makes quite a lot of assumptions that something is true based on a a couple of hints. So does Erika not existing, but that requires less assumptions. Kanon escaping the location check is an entirely different thing though.
I will list some I've heard in this topic.

Asumu died because of Battler's sin.
Battler's sin is a promise to Maria.
Battler and Jessica loved each other
Battler had sex with someone
Shannon faked her death in ep1
George took the chapel key from Rosa


I'm pretty sure these assumptions have little to no hints about them.

And as Jan-Poo said an assumption is a guess. Every theory we make is an assumption.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:28   Link #10188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
*snip*

With a single theory you explain:

- why there are only 17 persons including erika

- how kanon managed to escape from the sealed room

- how kanon disappeared from the closed room

- why kanon and shannon are "less than human"

- why it's impossible for both the george-shannon and jessica-kanon couples to be together.



without shkanon you need

One theory explaining how it is possible that Erika doesn't exist.

One theory explaining how kanon escaped from the sealed room (usually Kanon-Kinzo)

One theory explaining how Kanon "magically" disappeared from the closed room

One theory explaining the meaning of the whole "love test".
Not to mention I believe it is said, no one can leave the room when the chain lock is on.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:30   Link #10189
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I will list some I've heard in this topic.

Asumu died because of Battler's sin.
Battler's sin is a promise to Maria.
Battler and Jessica loved each other
Battler had sex with someone
Shannon faked her death in ep1
George took the chapel key for Rosa



I'm pretty sure these assumptions have little to no hints about them.
Your making your own assumptions
  • Shannon faking her death has hints. Battler said their faces looked like they had make up on them.
  • Battler making a promise to Maria has tons of hints. He makes joking promises to her in just about every episode. Furthermore Maria is very particular about people breaking promises. She's one of the people who thinks of it as the most wrong.
  • George was right next to Rosa when she collected the keys he had the best chance to to do that.
  • Jessica loving Battler has hints. battler asks if there is a person she likes that is within one Kilometer from where they were. she gets embarrassed, but doesn't answer "who"

The rest I'm not even going to touch because they were stolen from 4chan and are therefore unreliable.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:35   Link #10190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Your making your own assumptions
  • Shannon faking her death has hints. Battler said their faces looked like they had make up on them.
  • Battler making a promise to Maria has tons of hints. He makes joking promises to her in just about every episode. Furthermore Maria is very particular about people breaking promises. She's one of the people who thinks of it as the most wrong.
  • George was right next to Rosa when she collected the keys he had the best chance to to do that.
  • Jessica loving Battler has hints. battler asks if ther person she like was within wone Kilomet form where they were she doesn't answer "who"

The rest I'm not even going to touch because they were stolen from 4chan and are therefore unreliable.
Those are all only tiny hints, the same as with the Shakannon hints, if not even more subtle. Maria doesn't remember Battler, she even says so.

If you don't mind can we just drop this. It is really pointless, because there are many assumptions. For example: Maria thinks so highly of promises because Rosa always breaks the ones that she makes to her.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:39   Link #10191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Long and complicated line of text, which due to being very tired, I'm not sure I completely understood. Let me take a pot-shot and see how far I'm off.
In the area of theory, Occam's Razor states that the guy who makes a reasonable hypothesis using the least amount of assumptions wins.
Related to Umineko, the theory which uses the least amount of assumption-based evidence and relies more on truth we can rely on, like the red, is the stronger and more reasonable theory.
From my anti-Shkanon point of view, it doesn't support Shkanon very much, since a lot of the background Shkanon evidence is based off of assumptions.
Not exactly, but this is close to the truth.
In science, it just basically means that when two theories (of equal merit) are presented, the one with the least amount of complicated assumptions is probably the best bet.

Example: In real life, projectile motion follows a parabolic path.

Why does it do this? We've figured out that it is gravity.
When a non-massless object is thrown, in conjunction with the acceleration of gravity, the force of weight causes it to come down. But there is no proof of this phenomenon!

One could very well say that the "parabolic motion" of falling is caused by millions of purple gorillas pulling down at once.
...Okay, and there are NO purple gorillas in space. And they rely on photosynthesis to stay alive. And they also saw your mom nakies

While the theories technically cannot be proven... assuming someone were to provide evidence for the purple gorillas and would place it at a level equal to the gravity theory (which is not likely, but still) then gravity would still win.
This is because gravity does not rely on so many unfounded, ridiculous assumptions.

Since this is a MURDER MYSTERY game, where the author tries to make the game as complicated as possible without causing contradictions, the Occam's Razor is not only an unnecessary diversion but actually harmful for our thinking. It is extremely unlikely that any of this could possibly happen (even discounting the magic bits) and the solution was probably thought up at once by Ryukishi07.

So coming to a conclusion based on only the simplicity of the ideas may seem like a good idea, but shouldn't be taken for granted.

Not that it's a bad thing; I certainly don't want to have to integrate a 10th degree polynomial with my hands tied behind my back to prove how Asumu Ushiromiya is actually an alias for Natsuhi (shudder). But I doubt that you'd want to use the Occam's Razor as "reasonable proof" for a claim.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:46   Link #10192
Judoh
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I'll repeat it again. This is my biggest gripe with Shkanon.

To explain numerous scenes for Shkanon with Battler around you need a disguise. There are no hints that anyone is suspicious that Shannon disguises as Kanon. There are however hints that almost everyone is suspicious of a Beatrice disguise with numerous statements of who could be involved. Shkanon does not have this kind of liberty. I have yet to see one hint from anyone of a Shannon or Kanon disguise other than "they were trained at the Fukuin house", which there are no hints for, and the scene in episode 2. Not one Shkanon theorist has provided any hints from 1986 that hints at this sort of disguise when this is obviously the time the disguise would be used. Where are the hints?
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:54   Link #10193
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'll repeat it again. This is my biggest gripe with Shkanon.

To explain numerous scenes for Shkanon with Battler around you need a disguise. There are no hints that anyone is suspicious that Shannon disguises as Kanon. There are however hints that almost everyone is suspicious of a Beatrice disguise with numerous statements of who could be involved. Shkanon does not have this kind of liberty. I have yet to see one hint from anyone of a Shannon or Kanon disguise other than "they were trained at the Fukuin house", which there are no hints for, and the scene in episode 2. Not one Shkanon theorist has provided any hints from 1986 that hints at this sort of disguise when this is obviously the time the disguise would be used. Where are the hints?
True. But I find it more than a little bit unsettling how Kanon and Shannon are like never, in any of the five games I've played, shown together (except in fantasy scenes). At least, I don't remember any scenes where they interacted. I could be wrong.

But this is still FAR from conclusive evidence of the theory.
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Old 2010-05-18, 23:44   Link #10194
Raiza Sunozaki
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I can't say anything for Episode 6, since I haven't read it, but the two of them are shown together in Episode 5. However, this is from an unreliable third-person narrative ('cause apparently since all fantasy scenes, except the ones involving drunk or magic-believing people, are in third-person, the only "reliable" narrative is sober Battler and flashbacks) so most Shkanon supporters refuse to acknowledge it.

I also have to agree with Judoh on the disguise of Shkanon. Even more so, I call Knox's 10th on it: "It is forbidden for one character to disguise themselves as another." Of course, if you could show logical evidence that a guise existed, I'll give on this point.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:03   Link #10195
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually Occam's razor is in favor of shkanon.
It is by far a simpler explanation of EP6 than any other theory so far.
There are five other episodes it isn't a simpler explanation for.
Quote:
With a single theory you explain:

- why there are only 17 persons including erika
But there's still Erika's red about being #18, isn't there? What does Shkanon say about that?
Quote:
- how kanon managed to escape from the sealed room
There's no actual evidence that Shannon escaped from the room she was in, you know. And if Beatrice's solution didn't rely on the window, it's actively impossible.
Quote:
- how kanon disappeared from the closed room
Being dead is a simpler explanation than "he magically turned off a personality, which is apparently possible for some reason, and no longer counts as Kanon"
Quote:
- why kanon and shannon are "less than human"
Metaphor is a simpler explanation for turns of phrase which are obviously at odds with physical facts (and the fact is, they are human beings, whether or not one of them exists).
Quote:
- why it's impossible for both the george-shannon and jessica-kanon couples to be together.
How does Shkanon explain that anyway? She can turn it on and off, right? I'm sure George and Jessica will be very understanding of this three-way arrangement since they're dumb enough or accepting enough to totally not notice it or overlook it now.

So yeah, it's not even really the simplest explanation of ep6. It's just an explanation that happens to provide an answer for everything, no matter how foolish it has to make itself look.
Quote:
without shkanon you need

One theory explaining how it is possible that Erika doesn't exist.
Shkanon being false does not necessitate Erika-doesn't-exist being true. This is the same false correlation as people assuming Shannontrice necessitates Shkanon somehow.
Quote:
One theory explaining how kanon escaped from the sealed room (usually Kanon-Kinzo)
Kanon-Kinzo or "method x" of escaping the name check is more sensible than magical multiple personality disorder. Erika even assumes a "method x" in the story, so she apparently isn't that immediately concerned about how specifically he got out.
Quote:
One theory explaining how Kanon "magically" disappeared from the closed room
Again, "being dead" remains the most believable theory regardless of which theory you adopt. Heck, even if you're pro-Shkanon, Kanon being dead because Shkanon died in the closet is more sensible than "Kanon was switched off and no longer counts as existing," which is simply ridiculous.
Quote:
One theory explaining the meaning of the whole "love test".
I don't understand why people think Shkanon is the only possible thing that can explain this.
Quote:
that's four theories in place of one. But the most relevant thing is that it is a fact that EP6 heavily hints shkanon in several occasions from the start to the end. Even those who do not like the shkanon theory recognize that, although they claim it is a troll.

It might be a troll, but following Occam's razor logic it is a lot easier that things are exactly as they appears rather than there is some kind of conspiracy to make them seem that way when they are not.
If you're asking me to accept that things are "exactly as they appear," then I am always going to reject Shkanon, because it appears that Shannon and Kanon are two different people. You have to approach metaphorical layers - and thus add complexity - when proposing that two characters are one in direct contravention of the narrative.
Quote:
You can say that this is a fictional story and therefore Occam's razor logic doesn't work in this contest (which is perfectly reasonable as Oliver explained), but not that Occam's razor works against the shkanon theory.
As difficult as it is to explain the shkanon theory, the other options are even more complex.
Can we stop using terms that aren't remotely meaningful to the discussion and aren't even being used correctly in the first place? Occam's Razor isn't a particularly credible form of literary criticism. In some of its more popular uses (such as religious debates) it's being misused anyway. It's more a scientific principle than a philosophical one, and when applied to philosophy it has a nasty habit of not making a lot of sense.

The only criterion by which we should be judging the complexity of a mystery story is whether it "works." That's not a terribly good description, I know, but the concept is not too hard to understand: When the author finally reveals his or her answer, does everything he or she wrote leading up to that point "click?" Our response to a well-written mystery's revelation is "Of course! All those things I missed, everything adds together, and it explains why <various events> happened!" Whether we have to manage a Murder on the Orient Express or The Big Sleep degree of culprit complexity, or whether there's just one nefarious mastermind all along, it has to satisfyingly come together when the culprit is fingered and the clues gathered. If it does, it worked. If it doesn't, it didn't. Shkanon cannot give us that satisfaction.

It just doesn't answer things that are important. Focusing on it solving two things in a single episode doesn't make it credible; people had a working Natsuhi-culprit concept for ep1 before ep5, but would Natsuhi as the culprit really make any sense for 2-4? Not really. Trying to explain all the other episodes with Natsuhi behind everything (as Erika said she'd try to do in ep5) is just not a good idea. The reason why is, it raises more questions than it answers.

For all the vaunted value Shkanon claims to provide, it fails to answer critical thematic issues in the story:
  • What's up with the adults and their struggles? They apparently don't matter, probably because they're old people that bore a lot of readers.
  • What's with the epitaph? The gold?
  • What's up with the sinister hints dropped about Kyrie, Nanjo, George, etc.? It's a bit odd that the "real" theory is the one with the most obvious suggestions and the subtle hints are the actual red herrings.
  • What is Meta-Battler protecting? Shkanon is a secret, but it's not really some sort of earthshattering big deal. What difference does it make if Erika, Bern, and Lambda know about that? How does he know they don't know already?
  • What's with the bomb? Why would Shkanon explain that any more than any non-Shkanon theory?
  • Why did Beatrice's realization come when she was thinking about closed rooms? How does that relate? For that matter, what does Shkanon have to do with closed rooms at all? Shkanon makes closed rooms harder.
  • What's up with Ange? Ange doesn't give a damn about Shannon and Kanon. All Ange cared about was Battler. Does she even really know who Shannon and Kanon were? Why would she care?
And let's not forget all the basically needless questions it forces us to ask, like:
  • Why is there absolutely no hint of Shannon = Kanon equivalence on-board? Argue all you want about the absence of their mutual presence in front of Battler, but how are we explaining the lack of evidence that there's just one of them switching off?
  • How does Shkanon manage the schedules of two people? Apparently they can be put on different shifts. Does she know to bounce back and forth from gardening as Kanon and serving tea as Shannon? Going to the guesthouse as Kanon then going back as Shannon? Meeting George as Shannon, then sneaking back off to go be Kanon so she can wake up with Genji the next morning in ep1?
  • How does she know when and where to sneak off and change clothes? How can she guarantee that she has a change handy at all times? Does she have a half-dozen Shannon and Kanon outfits scattered around the house? Did no one ever find them?
  • Who knows about this? Genji? Kumasawa? Kinzo? Natsuhi? Krauss? Jessica? George? All of them? None of them? Everyone but Battler? Why do they care to support this; or if they don't know, why are they so stupid and unobservant to never catch on? I maintain it is literally not possible for someone to fool every single person hanging out on the island (except Gohda because he is an idiot).
  • Why should Kanon exist at all? I'll buy Battler's sin causing some person to create Beatrice. But why Kanon? There's no purpose to it. Shannon is not advantaged by it in any meaningful way. Was she just doing it for Jessica on a lark? That goes against the idea that Kanon is a personality that can "switch off."
  • Oh, yes, how does personality switching and killing work, again? I know no coherent theory exists to support this in science or philosophy, so it would have to just be a literary conceit; essentially, "it works because that's the way it works in this story."
  • Where does the extra body come from? Because there is another body. Non-Shkanon doesn't have that issue. There's just enough bodies to go around.
  • Does every single person who ever catches on to Shkanon just decide not to reveal any information about it to anyone else? Shouldn't someone at the garden shed in ep1 or the parlor in ep2 or the guesthouse in ep3 or someone remark on how suspicious that whole Kanon thing is?
  • How does a person with multiple personalities, an elaborate costume-change system, and possibly also a Beatrice outfit and perhaps personality manage to pull off all these elaborate schemes? That's rather an enormous amount of incredulous multitasking.
  • The "love duel" has problems of its own. How does Shannon manage to kill Kanon, only for Kanon to come back and save Battler like it never happened at all? If you're saying she killed him as a personality, she apparently did a rather poor job.
  • What about ep3? Don't give me the "faked death" thing, seven adults aren't all incompetent. And even if I buy it's true, how did she manage to guess they'd go to the parlor first, discover "Shannon," then escape, pose as "Kanon," fool them again about not really being dead (remember, they're fishing through the servants' pockets), then go back to the parlor and be Shannon again? Why would anyone do that?
It raises more questions than it comfortably answers. It's just ridiculous. I'm sure there are ridiculous theories and some of them may even be necessary to explain Umineko. But this one? Really? You're willing to sacrifice half the thematic elements, 3/4 of the characters, and embrace a patently absurd plot twist that has no basis in any sort of actual psychology just to solve ep6?

Last edited by Renall; 2010-05-19 at 00:30.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:14   Link #10196
Raiza Sunozaki
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Shit, Renall... I don't really have anything I can say after that.
Except thank you, thank you very much.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:48   Link #10197
Shiro Kaisen
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Renall...you've basically said everything I've said for weeks, but in one epic post. Thank you.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:52   Link #10198
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
After a lot of the stuff we've debated about I've come to this conclusion. The characters are not something to be dwelled on. The end red at episode 6 that seems to need to lower the count to 16 can work with several different theories. Some of them use the same person idea some of them have people being off the island in episode 6 some of them involve someone having to be killed or "written out" to introduce Erika or the furniture concept, and some just put faith in Erika not existing.

But all of these are just variables. They're variables that are cogs in a full equation. None of them are "answers". Some of them fit with culprits better than others. Whichever one is true is something I don't care about anymore. I don't WANT shkanon to be true, but if it is I'm hoping for a clever culprit using that to their advantage. I would also prefer NOT to have Erika not existing to be true even though I'd lean towards that since she's been around less. None of these solutions answer what consistently happens in all episodes (if you can find any consistency in them). If there is one culprit or mastermind or handler or whatever you want to call it you have to think of which one your variable fits with. Because the solutions we have here for those final reds in episode 6 certainly do not explain everything by themselves.

I still want hints for that disguise by the way.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:59   Link #10199
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
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Nanjo knows something... In ep 2 he says this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanjo
I can hear you- . . . has anything happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica
Doctor Nanjo good morning. Um.. sorry have you seen our parents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanjo
Dear me. I have just woken up. I could not know let me see.
Why does Nanjo think something happened? He just entered the main house after waking up and leaving the guesthouse.

XD old man nanjo has a well built stomach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ep2
Maria buried her face into Nanjo's well-built stomach, sobbing and crying.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-19, 01:19   Link #10200
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Nanjo isn't fat, he's just totally ripped and roided out. Maybe he really can climb in and out of that second story guesthouse window!
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