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Old 2010-05-19, 14:44   Link #10221
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think your thinking of episode 4 not 5. Unless you mean the tea party or something. Beato is already dead in episode 5. She doesn't speak at all. Bern says this herself.
yeah I'm pretty sure it is in 4. But what might be it is during her death scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beato
"You liar"
This implies that Battler at some point lies, or something like that.
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Old 2010-05-19, 15:43   Link #10222
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think your thinking of episode 4 not 5. Unless you mean the tea party or something. Beato is already dead in episode 5. She doesn't speak at all. Bern says this herself.
Huh? it was in the middle of meta-Battler's first battle with Dlanor (pre-tea party), after their debate over the validity of Erika's seal.

Battler said he promised he would kill her and Beatrice (piece) said she would never trust Battler's promise again.
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Old 2010-05-19, 16:06   Link #10223
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Nowhere does Ryukishi say that the key was first found in episode 6 or in any particular episode. Quit seeing things that aren't there! And if you read this he's just dodging the question. The question is for episode 6, but the key he's talking about doesn't seem to restricted to that. He probably expects you to find it in the question arcs.

he didn't say that it was the key to Battler's escape though he said it's the key that leads to the truth. I think they're unrelated.
It's interesting that the chain-locked room in EP6 is related to the key. Because in my EP1 second twilight theory Shkanon is denied. I've said it a lot so I'll keep this short and to the point. Basically, Shannon and Kanon are the only two people who could have killed Eva and Hideyoshi. Since the chain was set, someone had to be on the inside of the room at the time of discovery, and that person was Shannon. Since Kanon was outside the room, there is no way for one person to exist both inside and outside of a room at the same time. Therefore Shkanon doesn't exist.

We've discussed that theory a lot already, and I'm sure not everyone believes in it. But is it possible that the key is realizing that Shkanon isn't true? That's definitely one way how Battler's escape is related to solving all the mysteries. There's a connection between the second twilights of EP1, EP5, and EP6, and I think that leads to the key.
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Old 2010-05-19, 16:13   Link #10224
Escargotage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Huh? it was in the middle of meta-Battler's first battle with Dlanor (pre-tea party), after their debate over the validity of Erika's seal.

Battler said he promised he would kill her and Beatrice (piece) said she would never trust Battler's promise again.
The one who says that is the 'Beatrice' of Natsuhi's delusions, isn't it?
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Old 2010-05-19, 16:18   Link #10225
Judoh
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Rudolf was crying over Battler's death, but he didn't really die right?

For some reason or another Kanon entered the room and switched places with Battler. Just like Hideyoshi in episode 5 and Jessica in episode 2 Rudolf mistook Kanon's corpse for Battler's. Like Hideyoshi's corpse he dragged Kanon out of the room upon his discovery. Because of this Kanon no longer exists inside the room.

EDIT: There is still something I'm confused about. From the wiki from what I can tell the red saying Kanon definitely rescued Battler is the first time his name is mentioned in red in episode 6. But two other candidates who were never mentioned by name were removed from consideration. These are Jessica and Genji. These two never have their names referred to in red in episode 6 when names referring to the actual person who has them has become important to Beatrice. It's probably because I haven't read it, but why can Kanon specifically rescue Battler while Jessica and Genji can't? And why doesn't the red say that they can't?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-19 at 16:37.
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Old 2010-05-19, 16:51   Link #10226
Raiza Sunozaki
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I have one question. Does Episode 6 have a reliable first-person narrative?
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Old 2010-05-19, 16:59   Link #10227
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Rudolf was crying over Battler's death, but he didn't really die right?

For some reason or another Kanon entered the room and switched places with Battler. Just like Hideyoshi in episode 5 and Jessica in episode 2 Rudolf mistook Kanon's corpse for Battler's. Like Hideyoshi's corpse he dragged Kanon out of the room upon his discovery. Because of this Kanon no longer exists inside the room.

EDIT: There is still something I'm confused about. From the wiki from what I can tell the red saying Kanon definitely rescued Battler is the first time his name is mentioned in red in episode 6. But two other candidates who were never mentioned by name were removed from consideration. These are Jessica and Genji. These two never have their names referred to in red in episode 6 when names referring to the actual person who has them has become important to Beatrice. It's probably because I haven't read it, but why can Kanon specifically rescue Battler while Jessica and Genji can't? And why doesn't the red say that they can't?
Because Genji and Jessica are in the cousins room and it is impossible for anyone to leave the cousins room.
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:03   Link #10228
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Because Genji and Jessica are in the cousins room and it is impossible for anyone to leave the cousins room.
That's not an answer. Presumably Kanon was also in that room. Furthermore Only Erika and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people

Kanon only refers to Kanon. And Jessica and Genji's names were never referred to, but everyone else besides them had their names referred to in red. Why?

EDIT: Oh and another thing. Why doesn't the red placing everyone else in the cousin's room place Erika in that room? It doesn't say all other people excluding Kinzo AND Erika. Why isn't her position counted in the location check?
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:29   Link #10229
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's not an answer. Presumably Kanon was also in that room. Furthermore Only Erika and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people

Kanon only refers to Kanon. And Jessica and Genji's names were never referred to, but everyone else besides them had their names referred to in red. Why?

EDIT: Oh and another thing. Why doesn't the red placing everyone else in the cousin's room place Erika in that room? It doesn't say all other people excluding Kinzo AND Erika. Why isn't her position counted in the location check?
Beato is saying the red applies only the actually people with that name. Therefore if Kanon never existed these reds would apply to no one.

Genji never sees the corpses, maybe that is why he isn't mentioned in the red. But truly idk
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:33   Link #10230
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Absolutely not.
Please, enlighten me.

Because from my perspective, if Erika is thereupon designated to be the Detective's title, "Erika" can be consistently find-and-replace'd with the word "Detective" in every red text. Thus, if say Shannon was chosen by Bernkastel to be "Erika" in Episode 6, the red text would refer to her.

And if you bring up "Erika raises the person count by one," you're wrong. It raises the upper limit, but Umineko has consistently had an upper limit higher than the normal total for the sake of keeping illusions alive. See Kinzo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
- A non better specified theory explaining the whole love test scenes

- The assumptions that Ryukishi planned a huge troll since EP3 and used up almost half of Ep6 just to that end.
First one: Confrontation between Shannon and Kanon, a literal interpretation.

Second one: uh...what? Shkanon is BARELY implied, it's one of those things that people took clues to mean a certain way and used a lot of circumstantial evidence. Under Knox's 9th, we're allowed to read clues how we want, even if that isn't how they were intended. Nowhere does it say anything that Ryuukishi was intentionally force-feeding us Shkanon and then trolling us with it not being true.




also: see Erika's "I am...the witch of Truth...which means...I can face the truth...about myself" monologue from Episode 6 RIGHT BEFORE the 17 people red text. Context, people. Seriously.
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:35   Link #10231
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Beato is saying the red applies only the actually people with that name. Therefore if Kanon never existed these reds would apply to no one.

Genji never sees the corpses, maybe that is why he isn't mentioned in the red. But truly idk
The only reason we have for Erika and Kanon to not exist is because of the theory that dead people don't count. Dead people also should not count in a location check. If a nonexistent person entered Battler's room they would have to be a reanimated corpse...!! Knox's 2nd: Supernatural agencies cannot be employed as a detective technique!
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:36   Link #10232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
We've discussed that theory a lot already, and I'm sure not everyone believes in it. But is it possible that the key is realizing that Shkanon isn't true? That's definitely one way how Battler's escape is related to solving all the mysteries. There's a connection between the second twilights of EP1, EP5, and EP6, and I think that leads to the key.
Well, what if Erika and Bern believe in Shkanon? I think some of their suspicions could actually arise from this possibility, but there's no evidence one way or the other that Bern, Lambda, or Erika believes or doesn't believe in Shkanon. They don't ever really seem to address it until Erika gets desperate against Beatrice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: Oh and another thing. Why doesn't the red placing everyone else in the cousin's room place Erika in that room? It doesn't say all other people excluding Kinzo AND Erika. Why isn't her position counted in the location check?
Nobody knows. It's obvious from the narration that Erika doesn't intend to be trapped in that room. And it's obvious there is an "Erika" body of some sort that eventually enters the room Battler is in, so "Erika" isn't anyone stuck in that room, whoever they may be. She asks that Battler exclude Kinzo from the definition of "all other persons," so what Battler says should at the very least not actually mean everyone, unless he was bluffing and Kinzo's body really was in that room. But that's not relevant.

One suggestion is that if Erika has no body, it doesn't matter where she is. But we know that if Erika doesn't exist, "Erika" still does, so that isn't very profitable. I think it's more likely that what Battler acknowledged was that, discounting Kinzo and anyone obviously already stated or depicted to be outside the room, "all other persons" were inside.
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:41   Link #10233
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
One suggestion is that if Erika has no body, it doesn't matter where she is. But we know that if Erika doesn't exist, "Erika" still does, so that isn't very profitable. I think it's more likely that what Battler acknowledged was that, discounting Kinzo and anyone obviously already stated or depicted to be outside the room, "all other persons" were inside.
That was what it sounded like to me. I mean Erika isn't asking Battler "Am I in the cousins room even though I'm standing in the hallway." So Battler excludes her just naturally because he knows she doesn't care for him to say "Erika is in the hallway."
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:51   Link #10234
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That was what it sounded like to me. I mean Erika isn't asking Battler "Am I in the cousins room even though I'm standing in the hallway." So Battler excludes her just naturally because he knows she doesn't care for him to say "Erika is in the hallway."
Presumably he also excludes, you know, all other people on planet earth or existing in the universe or the bodies of every person who ever lived, so there is also the implicit "on Rokkenjima" which is generally never appended to any red text. But it obviously applies... or does it? It can be universalized in part because it's confined to the game board, which is allegedly the island and the island alone. But Battler's red does not universalize that way...
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Old 2010-05-19, 18:10   Link #10235
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: Oh and another thing. Why doesn't the red placing everyone else in the cousin's room place Erika in that room? It doesn't say all other people excluding Kinzo AND Erika. Why isn't her position counted in the location check?
Here's some food for thought, presented without comment.

Spoiler for Erika, Episode 6:
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Old 2010-05-19, 18:52   Link #10236
Judoh
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@LyricalAura: Do you still have that quote where Battler and Beato say something along the lines of " If this were the answer those humans will start complaining that this story is not a mystery again."?
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Old 2010-05-19, 20:00   Link #10237
Raiza Sunozaki
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Alright. Here's my attempt to explain the Episode 6 Logic Error without Shkanon. Mind you, some of my data might be off; it's been a while since I saw a summary of the scene.
Battler has locked himself in the guest room; further sealed by Erika's tape seal. Erika's movements at this time are actually the culprit, who believes Battler has found the location of the gold. Holding the rest of the family hostage, assisted by their accomplices, which is represented by how Erika has "sealed" access from the rooms, the culprit intends to draw Battler out and reveal the location of the gold. After Battler refuses to come out, the culprit goes around and kills the family members other than him who were playing dead.
Finally, the culprit reaches the guest room where Battler played dead. The culprit enters the room, breaking the seal, and repairs the broken chain lock with item x (Erika uses tape, so sure, that) and locks the room.
This is where my knowledge of the scene gets a little shaky. The culprit checks the bedroom, ignoring the closet, since the culprit is likely an Ushiromiya, and shares the inexplicable tendancy to not examine closets, then heads to the bathroom to check there. Battler has set up a trap for the culprit there, which takes them quite a while to get out of and deactivate.
Battler, who was relying on the fact that all Ushiromiya's have an aversion to looking in closets, was hiding in it, and uses his well-planned distraction to unlock the door and leave the room.
Now along comes Kanon, who for Reason Q (which I will explain below) has escaped from the cousins' room. He realised the culprit intended to go around killing the defenseless death fakers, and manages to catch up to the culprit before they can chase after Battler. There, Kanon engages in a duel with the culprit, and they both mortally wound each other. By the time the red regarding Kanon's non-existence is brought about, he has passed away due to his wounds.

Now here's my evidence in red.
Reason Q: Unfortunately, this is a rather shaky defence, since it could easily be denied if my assumptions I am forced to make from not reading Episode 6 are incorrect.
Excluding Kinzo (being dead), Battler, Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo and the other death fakers, who have already been confirmed to exist in other rooms, Battler acknowledges that all other people are in the cousins' room. However, if the next line in red, concerning that the sealing of the cousins' room and neighbouring room is guaranteed, does not happen immediately after the location check, then there is time for some one to escape before being sealed in. It's not a sealed room if the person being sealed in isn't there to begin with. Just like Kinzo not being alive to be sealed in his study.
However, if the two red are used within short time of eachother, I'll need to rethink it.
Now, about this certain red text: Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. ...Naturally this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom in their entirety. Now, due to translation, they might not share the kanji, but there's an earlier line said by Erika where she asks Battler to confirm the existence of "everyone else," but asks him to not include Kinzo, since he does not exist. Now, we know Kinzo's body still exists on Rokkenjima; how else could somebody burn it in several of the Episodes? Still, Erika says he does not exist. So, by Umineko terms, not existing can equal dead, with the corpse of the person still existing. So, Kanon can not exist in the guest room, even if his corpse is still in it.
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Old 2010-05-19, 21:58   Link #10238
Judoh
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Your reason Q is identical to Ssol's theory where Kanon leaves at about the same time Erika does, Battler advances the game, and then after that Dlanor declares the rooms sealed. He did say there was a gap in time like that. However I think somebody said the solution wasn't that simple.

Here is a thought though.

Dlanor is presumably the person who applied the seals not Erika right? If Dlanor is represented by Kanon on the game board and is the person who seals the rooms than that would place Kanon outside the cousins room because it's impossible to seal himself inside the room when the seals are restricted to the outside.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-19 at 22:11.
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Old 2010-05-19, 22:43   Link #10239
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It's possible to envision a scenario in which Kanon is the one who poses as "Erika" for the purposes of that scene, seals the rooms (or is otherwise outside them), then the person who slips out of the window in the neighboring room becomes "Erika" to commit the murders. That's pretty needlessly complicated, however, so I doubt it.
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Old 2010-05-19, 22:46   Link #10240
Judoh
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So Erika really did seal all the rooms? I thought it was Dlanor that did all of that.
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