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Old 2010-04-13, 08:21   Link #1
SeijiSensei
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Will VP8 become the new standard for fansubs?

It's beginning to look like Google will release the VP8 codec it bought from On2 in the next few weeks. If, as expected, VP8 will be released as an open standard, free of licensing issues, might we expect to see it displace the encumbered H.264 codec for fansubs?
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Old 2010-04-13, 09:00   Link #2
TheFluff
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no

just no
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:38   Link #3
Daiz
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No. VP8 sucks quality-wise and since we're breaking all kinds of copyright laws anyway we might as well use the best video format available.
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Old 2010-04-13, 11:23   Link #4
Dark Shikari
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It's rather hard to use vaporware for fansubs.

Call me back when it exists, and even then, call me back when On2 releases something that isn't garbage. They never have and never will, probably because they spend all of their time bragging about how their next abortion will be X times better than H.264 instead of actually making it not suck.
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Old 2010-04-13, 11:29   Link #5
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I wonder if VP8 will get rebranded as "Theora 2" or something like that...
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Old 2010-04-13, 11:30   Link #6
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
I wonder if VP8 will get rebranded as "Theora 2" or something like that...
Xiph would sell their souls to get that to happen.
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Old 2010-04-14, 11:32   Link #7
DmonHiro
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No. Just....no. No way in hell.
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Old 2010-04-15, 12:50   Link #8
greg-
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As expected? Come on, it's just a rumor.
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Old 2010-04-15, 12:52   Link #9
DragoZERO
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Should it become a new standard, it wouldn't happen for a long time. One reason why h.264 is used so widely is because of its compatibility (PC, Mac, PS3, etc) and versatility (low res to high qual 1080p).
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:15   Link #10
Daiz
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http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377
First indepth analysis of VP8.

Summary:
Quote:
VP8, as a spec, should be a bit better than H.264 Baseline Profile and VC-1. It’s not even close to competitive with H.264 Main or High Profile. If Google is willing to revise the spec, this can probably be improved.

VP8, as an encoder, is somewhere between Xvid and Microsoft’s VC-1 in terms of visual quality. This can definitely be improved a lot, but not via conventional means.

VP8, as a decoder, decodes even slower than ffmpeg’s H.264. This probably can’t be improved that much.

With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free.

VP8 is definitely better compression-wise than Theora and Dirac, so if its claim to being patent-free does stand up, it’s an upgrade with regard to patent-free video formats.

VP8 is not ready for prime-time; the spec is a pile of copy-pasted C code and the encoder’s interface is is lacking in features and buggy. They aren’t even ready to finalize the bitstream format, let alone switch the world over to VP8.

Google made the right decision to pick Matroska and Vorbis for its HTML5 video proposal.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:53   Link #11
N-Bomb
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Who honestly cares if fansubs are 'patent-encumbered' ?? It's not like fansubs aren't skirting the law already. Fansubs will always go with the easiest-to-use/best-performing/l33test codec/container there is.

Semi-agree with Daiz I guess.

Or will this become the new way to act smug? "MY fansubs are not encumbered by video encoding patents!" :\
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Old 2010-05-19, 17:34   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N-Bomb View Post
Or will this become the new way to act smug? "MY fansubs are not encumbered by video encoding patents!" :\
no, nobody except the retarded hurfblurfing lunix/OSS crusaders cares, and those are generally too busy recompiling the world to encode stuff
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2010-05-19, 19:23   Link #13
seven|x_x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N-Bomb View Post
Or will this become the new way to act smug? "MY fansubs are not encumbered by video encoding patents!" :\
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
no, nobody except the retarded hurfblurfing lunix/OSS crusaders cares, and those are generally too busy recompiling the world to encode stuff
*cough*emess*cough*
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Old 2010-05-19, 19:46   Link #14
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Doubt it. Although VP8 is a open codec, it's a bit too young to be used for something productive. I would give it a few years before considering it as a viable alternative.
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Old 2010-05-20, 08:07   Link #15
TGEN
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Not inb4 people come up with a better solution for HTML5.
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Old 2010-05-20, 10:10   Link #16
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VP8's lack of more than 3 reference frames would hurt its use for anime even more than for usual video, I think.

Plus it's not just 3 reference frames, it's more restrictive than that (from what I read in the spec anyway), where 1 of those 3 is ALWAYS the previous frame, and 1 is always the most recent I frame...

The spec did not impress me at all.

I wonder if it's not time for some enterprising genius to start developing a non-macroblock based video compression algorithm and really get away from mpeg once and for all.

Shouldn't there be some reasonable way of describing a grid using n-gons and tessellations? combined with a final ray-trace to recover pixels? The you use some kind of tree structure as a scan algorithm to go through touching triangles. Triangle prediction modes could be similar to mpeg for intra (based on extending the pixels along the matching edge, etc), and motion prediction could be based off motion of the triangle boundary vertices through the time axis instead of motion vectors of the blocks themselves...

The trick would be to construct it in a way that uses mainly integer arithmetic...
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Old 2010-05-20, 11:05   Link #17
TGEN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I wonder if it's not time for some enterprising genius to start developing a non-macroblock based video compression algorithm and really get away from mpeg once and for all.
Like Dirac/Schroedinger?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Shouldn't there be some reasonable way of describing a grid using n-gons and tessellations? combined with a final ray-trace to recover pixels? The you use some kind of tree structure as a scan algorithm to go through touching triangles. Triangle prediction modes could be similar to mpeg for intra (based on extending the pixels along the matching edge, etc), and motion prediction could be based off motion of the triangle boundary vertices through the time axis instead of motion vectors of the blocks themselves...

The trick would be to construct it in a way that uses mainly integer arithmetic...
I'm not sure if n-gons have any tangible benefit over squares, other than avoiding square macroblocks. Octrees might be useful for some scenes (time being the third dimension), but not in the general case.
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Old 2010-05-20, 11:52   Link #18
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGEN View Post
Like Dirac/Schroedinger?
I'm not sure if n-gons have any tangible benefit over squares, other than avoiding square macroblocks. Octrees might be useful for some scenes (time being the third dimension), but not in the general case.
Well, perhaps I should have spoken more carefully and said "non square block". Dirac doesn't use macroblocks but it does use "superblocks" and still does all its motion prediction based on minimum 4x4 block size.

n-gons (dealt internally triangulated, I think) could theoretically give much better intra compression because they aren't limited by vertical and horizontal boundaries... Furthermore, with triangles you could have 2 out of the 3 side's worth of data to interpolate from compared to square block's 2/4 max.
But encoding would be incredibly intensive.
Rather than just a mode decision, you'd have to somehow find optimal tesselations...
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Old 2010-05-20, 12:33   Link #19
TGEN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
n-gons (dealt internally triangulated, I think) could theoretically give much better intra compression because they aren't limited by vertical and horizontal boundaries... Furthermore, with triangles you could have 2 out of the 3 side's worth of data to interpolate from compared to square block's 2/4 max.
But encoding would be incredibly intensive.
Rather than just a mode decision, you'd have to somehow find optimal tesselations...
You can compute discrete first- and second-order differences of every frame to come up with optimal tesselations, depending on your maximum resolution. On big SIMD hardware like GPUs, that's easily parallelisable, but a lot of work elsewhere. I don't see fixed-function decoding DSPs achieve that sort of parallelism within the next five years either, so it's more of a future thing. But at that point, the bandwidth and storage available will make it irrelevant (like buying a quadcore to run your word processor these days).

Additional note, you could compute the entropy of each frame, and based on that assign a number of prototypes to it, then run stuff like RLVQ on it to come up with midpoints for your n-gons. You would expend ridiculous amounts of computation time per frame though when encoding, but decoding should be pretty straightforward.
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Old 2010-05-20, 13:18   Link #20
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGEN View Post
You can compute discrete first- and second-order differences of every frame to come up with optimal tesselations, depending on your maximum resolution. On big SIMD hardware like GPUs, that's easily parallelisable, but a lot of work elsewhere. I don't see fixed-function decoding DSPs achieve that sort of parallelism within the next five years either, so it's more of a future thing. But at that point, the bandwidth and storage available will make it irrelevant (like buying a quadcore to run your word processor these days).

Additional note, you could compute the entropy of each frame, and based on that assign a number of prototypes to it, then run stuff like RLVQ on it to come up with midpoints for your n-gons. You would expend ridiculous amounts of computation time per frame though when encoding, but decoding should be pretty straightforward.
Have fun doing DCTs of non-square shapes.
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