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Old 2010-05-20, 15:55   Link #10301
Marion
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Well, it's just plain WEIRD !
Hum, so tomorrow I will work on Erika's case. Bye for now.
Not really. There was just no Virgilia portrait made, since she was never featured as the main witch character of any game, so Ryukishi just used the image of her in the EP 4 boxart since in EP 5 OP there were flashes of all the other Endless Witches.
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Old 2010-05-20, 15:57   Link #10302
Linkin Battler
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Well, maybe i have found a solution... Beatrice kills Kanon or Shannon on the 4th Oct. (so the game is already started and any action does not cheange the "setup" of the game) before the relatives arrive on the island, so she can decide which one she should kill! And in the 4th episode she kills Shannon, since she does not plan any Shannon/George scene (I personally cannot see Kanon becaming red when George gives him the ring xD), like she did in the other Episodes...!
And now I think my theory has not any single hole...

(If someone is interested in my theory I had posted here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...60#post3056860 It is very long but it could explain many things,s such as who is Beatrice, the Battler's sin, the murders, the epitath and so on...!)
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Old 2010-05-20, 15:58   Link #10303
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
@Judoh: I love the picture of your avatar *__* Can you give it to me? XD *loves Natsuhi*
The full picture is here.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...69582&page=103

The avatar is mine though. No takesies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Well... maybe I found something: it could be that it isn't always Kanon to be dead before the starting of the game, Beatrice is able to choose if killing Kanon or Shannon before the start of the game, in fact she takes always a long time to "prepare the game" (that should be the time she spend arranging everything with the humanBeato)...
In the first arc she killed Kanon, in the second it was the same, while in the third I don't think it makes any difference, while in the fourth she decided to kill Shannon, but I have to check the reds to see whether it is in contrast with something or not... However with the point of the two Battler I meant Beatrice could say
It is not something between Beatrice and Battler even though it was! But I think it is not for this, it is that Beatrice is the title of the witchBeato while the sin regarded humanBeato (whose name wasn't Beatrice probably)... However there are a lot of ways out for this, the thing that worries me the most is the Kanon problem...
The candidates for other Battler are on a very short list.
  • Jessica is my best bet since Natsuhi was shown to have birth problems and Battler has that birth situation. Jessica being the other Battler born from Asumu just flows the most naturally if you assume Natsuhi never gave birth to begin with. And if you don't care about being gender specific.
  • Then there's Kanon and Juuza Amakusa as candidates. Kanon is an orphan anyway so if he's the other Battler it wouldn't be unusual for him to be in an orphanage. The only restriction is that Jessica is two years older than him so she would have to be at least 20 for Kanon to be the other Battler.
  • The Amakusa = Battler though is a dick move IMO because he could of revealed that to Ange at any time, but he chose not to. It just makes him look like a jerk

The dominant non personality theory for Shkanon is that Kanon and Shannon have a duel at the start of the games, which allows who survives to rotate in different episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Well, maybe i have found a solution... Beatrice kills Kanon or Shannon on the 4th Oct.
Who is Beatrice in your theory?

remember


No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!

That excludes any 18th person.

In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!

This applies to all games!!!


Beatrice has to be one of the humans on the island. She can't just be "Beatrice". And if Shannon is Beatrice she can't kill herself.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-20 at 16:09.
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Old 2010-05-20, 16:07   Link #10304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The full picture is here.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...69582&page=103

The avatar is mine though. No takesies.




The candidates for other Battler are on a very short list.
  • Jessica is my best bet since Natsuhi was shown to have birth problems and Battler has that birth situation. Jessica being the other Battler born from Asumu just flows the most naturally if you assume Natsuhi never gave birth to begin with. And if you don't care about being gender specific.
  • Then there's Kanon and Juuza Amakusa as candidates. Kanon is an orphan anyway so if he's the other Battler it wouldn't be unusual for him to be in an orphanage. The only restriction is that Jessica is two years older than him so she would have to be at least 20 for Kanon to be the other Battler.
  • The Amakusa = Battler though is a dick move IMO because he could of revealed that to Ange at any time, but he chose not to. It just makes him look like a jerk

The dominant non personality theory for Shkanon is that Kanon and Shannon have a duel at the start of the games, which allows who survives to rotate in different episodes.
Obviously the avatar is yours xDDD
However, if you have read my theory you understand of who I am talking about...! That there are two Battler is sure because of the red Battler cannot say in the 4th Episode:
My name is Ushiromiya Battler
It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.
It was from Ushiromiya[, ......, ......nguh, ............?! ......?!?!"]

(The original statement reads: It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you {Battler} were born.)
The meaning is clear: he is Ushiromiya Battler, Ushiromiya Battler was born by Asumu but he was not born by Asumu, so we have to assumpt there are two Ushiromiya Battler and imho one of them is the boy who has died 19 years ago because of Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-05-20, 16:19   Link #10305
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
The meaning is clear: he is Ushiromiya Battler, Ushiromiya Battler was born by Asumu but he was not born by Asumu, so we have to assumpt there are two Ushiromiya Battler and imho one of them is the boy who has died 19 years ago because of Natsuhi.
Your theory isn't new it's been around forever. I'm already aware of where it comes from.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

In context this refers to the Battler we know. Nowhere does it say that it's Asumu's Battler. There would be no reason for him to remember if he wasn't the one who made the promise.

Other than that the 19 year old master is referred to a lot in episode 6. So we are to assume that this person is alive and that he's one of the 17 people.
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Old 2010-05-20, 16:56   Link #10306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Your theory isn't new it's been around forever. I'm already aware of where it comes from.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

In context this refers to the Battler we know. Nowhere does it say that it's Asumu's Battler. There would be no reason for him to remember if he wasn't the one who made the promise.

Other than that the 19 year old master is referred to a lot in episode 6. So we are to assume that this person is alive and that he's one of the 17 people.
We have to take the sentence in itself, not the context, remember we are talking about the red... and so, why didn't she clearly said: "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between you and me"? It is sure easier and more clear to say.
She just did not want to admit the sin was between them, in fact Battler says that her eyes say a different thing. I think the sin is clearly between them, but she still could say that is not between those two because (1) Beatrice is not her real name, it is just a title or (2) because she was referring to the other Battler, even though he is dead, because she didn't want to tell Battler it was between them...
And more, in EP5 it is evident that there is something between them, don't you think?
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:02   Link #10307
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
We have to take the sentence in itself, not the context, remember we are talking about the red... and so, why didn't she clearly said: "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between you and me"? It is sure easier and more clear to say.
She just did not want to admit the sin was between them, in fact Battler says that her eyes say a different thing. I think the sin is clearly between them, but she still could say that is not between those two because (1) Beatrice is not her real name, it is just a title or (2) because she was referring to the other Battler, even though he is dead, because she didn't want to tell Battler it was between them...
And more, in EP5 it is evident that there is something between them, don't you think?
If you don't take the red in it's context it doesn't even mean what it says. If we did that everything in Umineko could be separated from the game.

Sorry, but your theory is just on shaky ground. We haven't gotten any hints that Beatrice is a title at all and really it doesn't matter who as long as someone was affected by the sin. The important part is that Battler's sin causes people to die nothing more than that is necessary.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:12   Link #10308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If you don't take the red in it's context it doesn't even mean what it says. If we did that everything in Umineko could be separated from the game.

Sorry, but your theory is just on shaky ground. We haven't gotten any hints that Beatrice is a title at all and really it doesn't matter who as long as someone was affected by the sin. The important part is that Battler's sin causes people to die nothing more than that is necessary.
That Beatrice is a title is clearly said in Episode 3, in fact she gives her name Beatrice to EVA and also asks Battler to find a new name for her
However, have you read what I have written two pages before, the whole text? Don't you think it makes sense? I think that at least something right there has to be.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:14   Link #10309
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
We have to take the sentence in itself, not the context, remember we are talking about the red... and so, why didn't she clearly said: "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between you and me"? It is sure easier and more clear to say.
I need to read your theory first to comment on the other stuff, but just to interject at this point:

We already know from EP6 that context is vitally important. There are red sentences in EP6 that simply say, "Acknowledged" (or 認める) . Without the proper context around them, none of these reds mean anything. Since EP6 is an answer arc, this is probably Ryukishi's way of showing us that without the proper context, a red is absolutely useless. This is because no other reds have been this non-specific before.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:20   Link #10310
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
That Beatrice is a title is clearly said in Episode 3, in fact she gives her name Beatrice to EVA and also asks Battler to find a new name for her
However, have you read what I have written two pages before, the whole text? Don't you think it makes sense? I think that at least something right there has to be.
Not really. You don't specify who Beatrice even is, and she can't be a person X because person X doesn't exist.

The probability that one person does all the murders in every episode is extremely low. Episodes 3 and 4 make that very clear. I also don't see anything in your theory explaining the closed rooms. It's far from impressive you have a vague "who" , no how, and a very weak "why".

Here is the second problem with your theory. Beatrice has no motive. At this point I think she's probably a pawn.

This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.
Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.
Battler-kun is not the culprit.
Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
This can be said of all games.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

EDIT: My theory since episode 5 has been: If Beato's motive is somebody else's, i.e if she is a pawn who is ordered or coaxed to murder people by the culprit, there are no problems with the red.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-20 at 17:36.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:44   Link #10311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Not really. You don't specify who Beatrice even is, and she can't be a person X because person X doesn't exist.

The probability that one person does all the murders in every episode is extremely low. Episodes 3 and 4 make that very clear. I also don't see anything in your theory explaining the closed rooms. It's far from impressive you have a vague "who" , no how, and a very weak "why".

Here is the second problem with your theory Beatrice has no motive. At this point I think she's probably a pawn.

This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.
Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.
Battler-kun is not the culprit.
Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
This can be said of all games.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.
Mmmh... Your theory has a point, but also with mine theory there are no problems with the red...
And in fact all those red perfectly fits together with my theory: the gold is Beatrice's since she is the only heir of the original owner and Kinzo is dead, she has not anything to gain from having someone solve the epitath (in fact it is just a way to reinforce the Beatrice is a witch illusion), Battler is obviously not the culprit and Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure, in fact she did it just "for Battler" and afterwards because she was trapped by Lambdadelta.
And more... the pact with Lambdadelta which Lambda allude to in the third Tea Party what could be if not what I said?
And it is not as you said, I specified who Beatrice is, I said everything about her life, I don't think it is a "vague who"... xD And it is a human Beatrice committed the murder in every games, not a person X, a human Beatrice who has been already mentioned and presented a lot of time in the question arcs.
And I also explained all the closed room, the "how" and the "why", going back over all the Episode singularly... and not it arise a doubt... have you read everything I have written? Because please, read everything before commenting it and if there is something not clear just ask me (I'm not very good at speaking and writing in english as you can see... xD), you give me the impression you have just read a little piace of what I have written...
My theory can be, obviously, false, but I don't think it can be "disprooved", since everything fits together (and there are a lot of clues supporting it) and there is nothing contradictory (now that I have mend the problem reguarding Shannon/Kanon), at least with the clues that have been given until EP5 (I haven't read EP6, maybe in that Episode there is something disproving my theory xD)... it is just as the theory which Erika has made in EP5 of Natsuhi being the culprit, it is a possible truth, but we can't be sure it is the real truth (and in fact afterwards we discover it was false... xD)
There probably could also be something contradictory in my theory I haven't noticed, but I have waited a long time before posting it, really because I had spent a lot of time looking for some mistakes, so I'm a bit sure there aren't other contradiction...

Spoiler for OT XDDD:
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:47   Link #10312
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Your seriously not getting it.

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!

We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you [Erika], the number of people is seventeen.

Your Beatrice piece doesn't exist unless she is one of the 17 human people in disguise. That's the whole reason Battler wanted a person X. So a human Beatrice could be the killer.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:52   Link #10313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I need to read your theory first to comment on the other stuff, but just to interject at this point:

We already know from EP6 that context is vitally important. There are red sentences in EP6 that simply say, "Acknowledged" (or 認める) . Without the proper context around them, none of these reds mean anything. Since EP6 is an answer arc, this is probably Ryukishi's way of showing us that without the proper context, a red is absolutely useless. This is because no other reds have been this non-specific before.
Yes, that's true, I did not express myself well. I meant that I can also "falsify" a red, letting someone think I am referring to someone, while I am not, just as Beato did when saying "between Battler and Beatrice". Even because I don't see the point of not saying "between me and you", that is far more clear. And remember ryu07 never does something by chance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Your seriously not getting it.

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!

We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you [Erika], the number of people is seventeen.

Your Beatrice piece doesn't exist unless she is one of the 17 human people in disguise. That's the whole reason Battler wanted a person X. So a human Beatrice could be the killer.
Yes, in fact there are seventeen people on the island: the four siblings with the three respective husband/wives, the four cousins, Genji, Shannon OR Kanon (it depends on who Beatrice kills before the arriving of the relatives), Nanjo, Kumasawa and Gohda.
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:56   Link #10314
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Linkin Battler; what about this red.

Six years ago for Battler no person called Beatrice existed
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Old 2010-05-20, 17:59   Link #10315
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Linkin Battler; what about this red.

Six years ago for Battler no person called Beatrice existed
I believe the qualifier "for me"means Battler is saying he wasn't aware of Beatrice, or anyone named Beatrice, at that time. Beatrice could still exist six years ago (though it's likely she didn't, at least not the one in question), but she couldn't exist for Battler.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:02   Link #10316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Linkin Battler; what about this red.

Six years ago for Battler no person called Beatrice existed
Beatrice is just the title of the Golden Witch, not her real name, and she has gained that title after becoming a witch thanks to Lambdadelta and in fact when she gives the title of Beatrice to EVA she asks Battler to find a new name for her.
And I want also to underline that Beatrice specify that for Battler did not exist any person WHOSE NAME IS BEATRICE, and not that she herself did not exist for Battler.
Edit:
Six years ago she was not Beatrice, but another person. And more, as Renall say, I just noticed that red supports my theory because six years ago FOR BATTLER no person called Beatrice existed, and in fact when Battler met Beatrice she was disguised as Shannon.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:07   Link #10317
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You can just go ahead and say that numbers in red are in base 13 because Kinzo said that 6x9=42. Then you can have a Shannon, a Kanon, a Beatrice, an Erika, and there's one more spot left.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:08   Link #10318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Beatrice is just the title of the Golden Witch, not her real name, and she has gained that title after becoming a witch thanks to Lambdadelta and in fact when she gives the title of Beatrice to EVA she asks Battler to find a new name for her.
Six years ago she was not Beatrice, but another person. And more, as Renall say, I just noticed that red supports my theory because six years ago FOR BATTLER no person called Beatrice existed, in fact when Battler met Beatrice he thaught she was Shannon.
And I want also to underline that Beatrice specify that for Battler did not exist any person WHOSE NAME IS BEATRICE, and not that she herself did not exist for Battler.
I just have one last comment at least right now. Doesn't HumanBeato have to take the place of Shannon in both ep 3 or did she tell Shannon about the white horse comment?
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:12   Link #10319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I just have one last comment at least right now. Doesn't HumanBeato have to take the place of Shannon in both ep 3 or did she tell Shannon about the white horse comment?
Obviously she told her about it, it is not hard to imagine she was always telling her about it... as I said they were friends at the time, because they were of the same age and Kumasawa probably brought Shannon with her sometimes.
That also explains why Shannon remembers very clearly almost everything related to Battler 6 years ago. There is also a chance that the exchange did not happen only once, but also on other family conferences (like seven and eight years ago).
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:14   Link #10320
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Beatrice is just the title of the Golden Witch, not her real name, and she has gained that title after becoming a witch thanks to Lambdadelta and in fact when she gives the title of Beatrice to EVA she asks Battler to find a new name for her.
And I want also to underline that Beatrice specify that for Battler did not exist any person WHOSE NAME IS BEATRICE, and not that she herself did not exist for Battler.
Sure this person can be named Beatrice to begin with. or she can be a person with the title of Beatrice. If it's a title though it a lot more likely that someone already introduced to us on the island has that title not someone we don't even know about.

For your theory to work with Knox's first her real name has to be a character mentioned early on in the story. You still haven't answered my question. Who is Beatrice?
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