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Old 2010-05-20, 18:25   Link #10321
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sure this person can be named Beatrice to begin with. or she can be a person with the title of Beatrice. If it's a title though it a lot more likely that someone already introduced to us on the island has that title not someone we don't even know about.

For your theory to work with Knox's first her real name has to be a character mentioned early on in the story. You still haven't answered my question. Who is Beatrice?
We don't know her real name, but this humanBeatrice has been mentioned many times: (1) Maria says she received a letter and an umbrella from her and she has met Beatrice every year, (2) Kyrie, Rosa, Genji and other people says to have seen her on the island in EP2, (3) Battler who is the detective and has an OBJECTIVE point of view sees her in EP4 and I think that alone is enough, even though there are more evidences of her presence on the island.
However, six years ago she was not Beatrice, while now, after being acknowledged by Lambdadelta is without any doubt Beatrice... but obviously in the gameboard she is a human and cannot use any magic or stuff like that. (Sorry, I do not know how to explain it well, in the big WoT I think it is well-explained a bit >_>)
Anyhow, do you remember about metaBeatrice's dream in EP3? Virgilia NEVER calls her Beatrice or something, she just refers to her as "Princess".
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:30   Link #10322
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
We don't know her real name, but this humanBeatrice has been mentioned many times: (1) Maria says she received a letter and an umbrella from her and she has met Beatrice every year, (2) Kyrie, Rosa, Genji and other people says to have seen her on the island in EP2, (3) Battler who is the detective and has an OBJECTIVE point of view sees her in EP4 and I think that alone is enough, even though there are more evidences of her presence on the island.
And why can't anyone else disguise as Beatrice and do all of that? Maria was 3 when Battler left. If Beatrice was "created" after he left it wouldn't be unusual for Maria to "think" this person is Beatrice and know her for as long as she can remember. The characters even say this much when they compare Beatrice to Santa Clause. That and the only time Battler ever truly sees this person was on the third floor balcony it's not really the most difficult thing to fool Battler if he's seeing her from that far away.

Your person needs a real name or she was never properly introduced as a character.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:33   Link #10323
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
We don't know her real name, but this humanBeatrice has been mentioned many times: (1) Maria says she received a letter and an umbrella from her and she has met Beatrice every year, (2) Kyrie, Rosa, Genji and other people says to have seen her on the island in EP2, (3) Battler who is the detective and has an OBJECTIVE point of view sees her in EP4 and I think that alone is enough, even though there are more evidences of her presence on the island.
However, six years ago she was not Beatrice, while now, after being acknowledged by Lambdadelta is without any doubt Beatrice... but obviously in the gameboard she is a human and cannot use any magic or stuff like that. (Sorry, I do not know how to explain it well, in the big WoT I think it is well-explained a bit >_>)
Anyhow, do you remember about metaBeatrice's dream in EP3? Virgilia NEVER calls her Beatrice or something, she just refers to her as "Princess".
1) Could easily be Shannon or Jessica (although I'm more inclined to believe the former)
2) They could all be lying and tricked Maria.
3) Someone disguised as Beatrice. Just being the detective doesn't mean Battler is immune to tricks or disguises, it just means that we can trust what he's narrating to us.

As for Meta-Beatrice's dream, this can easily be a dream from someone on the island. Meta-Beatrice's origins in EP 6 show this to be very likely as well.
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Old 2010-05-20, 18:51   Link #10324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And why can't anyone else disguise as Beatrice and do all of that? Maria was 3 when Battler left. If Beatrice was "created" after he left it wouldn't be unusual for Maria to "think" this person is Beatrice and know her for as long as she can remember. The characters even say this much when they compare Beatrice to Santa Clause. That and the only time Battler ever truly sees this person was on the third floor balcony it's not really the most difficult thing to fool Battler if he's seeing her from that far away.

Your person needs a real name or she was never properly introduced as a character.
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
1) Could easily be Shannon or Jessica (although I'm more inclined to believe the former)
2) They could all be lying and tricked Maria.
3) Someone disguised as Beatrice. Just being the detective doesn't mean Battler is immune to tricks or disguises, it just means that we can trust what he's narrating to us.

As for Meta-Beatrice's dream, this can easily be a dream from someone on the island. Meta-Beatrice's origins in EP 6 show this to be very likely as well.
Yes, what you say can be right without any problem.
But that doesn't mean anything, since you aren't disprooving my theory, but you are just presenting an alternative to it. Just presenting an alternative is not sufficient to proove that what I said is false, as Battler does with Beatrice.
The only difference between my statements and yours is that mine could lead to a lot of implication, since they have a theory explaining almost the whole mistery behind Umineko (a theory that could be true or false, but at least it there is) behind, while yours does not lead to anything unless you build a theory with solid bases (various hints scattered throughout the novel) starting from those statements.

And as it regards what you (Judoh) say, I don't uunderstand what you say: she has been introduced as a character, she is Beatrice and we have even seen her many times, it doesn't mind how she was called six years ago or what is her real name (in a lot of mistery novels appear people with false names).

Spoiler for Ot:
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Old 2010-05-20, 19:14   Link #10325
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
And as it regards what you (Judoh) say, I don't uunderstand what you say: she has been introduced as a character, she is Beatrice and we have even seen her many times, it doesn't mind how she was called six years ago or what is her real name (in a lot of mistery novels appear people with false names).
First of all a title is not a false name it's a name inherited that gives you a certain authority. I can have the title of Knight or Esquire, but that doesn't make me introduced with that. It would be added on to my already given name. For example "Judoh Esquire".

Second if nameless people were allowed to be introduced we could have all kinds of crazy culprits that would make absolutely no sense. We could have Rosa's nameless ex husband as a culprit. Or Gohda's unnamed twin brother as a culprit. It would totally mess everything up. So if your person has a title and Beatrice is not her given name she should have a real name. And it should be the name of someone in the story. Otherwise it makes no sense with that commandment.

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Old 2010-05-20, 19:35   Link #10326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
First of all a title is not a false name it's a name inherited that gives you a certain authority. I can have the title of Knight or Esquire, but that doesn't make me introduced with that. It would be added on to my already given name. For example "Judoh Esquire".

Second if nameless people were allowed to be introduced we could have all kinds of crazy culprits that would make absolutely no sense. We could have Rosa's nameless ex husband as a culprit. Or Gohda's unnamed twin brother as a culprit. It would totally mess everything up. So if your person has a title and Beatrice is not her given name she should have a real name. And it should be the name of someone in the story. Otherwise it makes no sense with that commandment.
No, that's not true: first, she is not a nameless person, but just a person whose real name is unknown and who is known with the name of Beatrice, that probably is the name of her mother or grandmother; second, there are absolutely no hints of Rosa's nameless ex husband or Gohda's unnamed twin brother or any other crazy culprit being on the island, while the whole novel is full of hints that lead to the almost certain existence of a person called Beatrice on the island, who has already been presented, a person whom we can extrapolate almost evertyhing about. In a mistery novel there could also be a character who has been presented with his title, "the Knight of Esquire", but whose real name has not been revealed, there is nothing strange about it. Moreover, Beatrice is not only a title, her "calling card", but also the name she is known with. The accomplices, the people on the island, etc., knows her as "Beatrice" and if her appears in front of them they would without any doubt recognize her as Beatrice, so it does not conflicts with any Knox's commandment. What does not convince you about it? Remember also that Knox's commandment are also under interpretation, as Dlanor herself said.
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Old 2010-05-20, 19:37   Link #10327
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Obviously she told her about it, it is not hard to imagine she was always telling her about it... as I said they were friends at the time, because they were of the same age and Kumasawa probably brought Shannon with her sometimes.
That also explains why Shannon remembers very clearly almost everything related to Battler 6 years ago. There is also a chance that the exchange did not happen only once, but also on other family conferences (like seven and eight years ago).
Oh boy. This sounds like the pony theory a lot.

Spoiler for Major EP 6:


Again your theory has holes in it regarding both Knox and explanations that can be seen as far more simpler. I don't see how my points lead to implications, when they're reasonable solutions to what points you presented.
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Old 2010-05-20, 19:50   Link #10328
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
No, that's not true: first, she is not a nameless person, but just a person whose real name is unknown and who is known with the name of Beatrice, that probably is the name of her mother or grandmother; second, there are absolutely no hints of Rosa's nameless ex husband or Gohda's unnamed twin brother or any other crazy culprit being on the island, while the whole novel is full of hints that lead to the almost certain existence of a person called Beatrice on the island, who has already been presented, a person whom we can extrapolate almost evertyhing about. In a mistery novel there could also be a character who has been presented with his title, "the Knight of Esquire", but whose real name has not been revealed, there is nothing strange about it. Moreover, Beatrice is not only a title, her "calling card", but also the name she is known with. The accomplices, the people on the island, etc., knows her as "Beatrice" and if her appears in front of them they would without any doubt recognize her as Beatrice, so it does not conflicts with any Knox's commandment. What does not convince you about it? Remember also that Knox's commandment are also under interpretation, as Dlanor herself said.
I said Knight or Esquire. Not Knight of Esquire

Look titles don't work like that. Even with the title Beatrice they are not REALLY Beatrice they are person we don't even know with the title Beatrice. That title isn't going to deceive anybody if only Maria has met her,which is the only person you have hints for meeting her. Especially since there is a red saying old Beatrice died in 1967

Title's are very different from pseudonyms like your talking about. They're not the same thing that's why Lambda said Battler solved virtually none of the mysteries in episode 4.

Your claiming that this person inherited this title called Beatrice when you don't even have a real name for her. You know virtually nothing about this character other than Maria has met her and that supposedly she kills people. Maria meeting her isn't even really a hint that a different person like that exists just that she met someone who meets the description of the person in the portrait. You also have no explanation for the closed rooms or 07151129 with this.

You have no red suggesting she exists anywhere and no death declaration for her.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:02   Link #10329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Oh boy. This sounds like the pony theory a lot.

Spoiler for Major EP 6:


Again your theory has holes in it regarding both Knox and explanations that can be seen as far more simpler. I don't see how my points lead to implications, when they're reasonable solutions to what points you presented.
Yes, in fact I inspired to the pony theory, as I said in the post where I explained my theory (have you read it? If you want to know my complete opinion on Umineko, just click on my signature ). However this metaBeatrice is not created by the girl tha Battler supposedly makes her promise to, she IS the humanBeatrice OF THE FIRST EPISODE whom Battler made her promise to six years ago and whose wish has been "granted" by Lambdadelta (as she has done to Takano) on the condition that she was ready to renunce everything to realize his wish (as Lambda said in Tanabata special). The wish was "to be forever with Battler" and the plan of Lambda was to make Beato create a perfect gameboard where she could trap Bern and Btatler (more the gameboard is perfect, less where the chances Battler/Bern could win). But in fact Lambdadelta let Beatrice start the metabattle with Battler just because she wanted her to create a perfect gameboard that could make Bern surrender.
I.e. humanBeatrice knows that there will be a future metabattle with Battler and she prepares everything in view of that (the magic circles, the closed room, the letters, the illusion of magic, etc.) and that's why there are a lot of incongruence in the games (for example Gohda, Genji and Shannon lying about having seen Kanon, when we know Kanon was killed in this room in EP2 or the whole EP4). Obviously metaBeato (who is the humanBeato, the murderer, of the EP1) can communicate with humanBeato, as shown in EP4 (there is a scene where metaBeato speak with humanBeato after the balcony scene). That was what Beato meant when saying "the preparation are ready!", that she has told humanBeato what to do. This can also explain the crazy EP4, where we see everyone lying about the presence of Kinzo, magic and probably Shannon, but everything is better explained in my theory post.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:15   Link #10330
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Here's the problem with that though: Beatrice clearly doesn't want Battler to be trapped forever. She's trying to get him out by helping him (red text, getting Ronove and Virgilia involved, etc) so your theory contradicts her motives to help Battler get out. She wants him to remember the promise, but she doesn't want him to be trapped forever on Rokkenjima. It's very likely that Beatrice was forced into starting the game, via Lambda.

Quote:
Obviously metaBeato (who is the humanBeato, the murderer, of the EP1) can communicate with humanBeato, as shown in EP4 (there is a scene where metaBeato speak with humanBeato after the balcony scene).
This doesn't necessarily have to be a real scene. Battler doesn't see their conversation, since SuitBeato at that point goes back into the mansion from the balcony.

Your human Beatrice theory also contradicts Knox #1 right off, because she is never introduced to us in a human world perspective - only a meta-world perspective. The Suit-Beato in EP 2 and 4 doesn't count towards this because we see her appearing magically, not physically. Not to mention in EP 2 she never appears in front of Battler until the game end and by that time we see golden butterflies and a living Kinzo, which implies Battler's perspective is no longer reliable.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:25   Link #10331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I said Knight or Esquire. Not Knight of Esquire

Look titles don't work like that. Even with the title Beatrice they are not REALLY Beatrice they are person we don't even know with the title Beatrice. That title isn't going to deceive anybody if only Maria has met her,which is the only person you have hints for meeting her. Especially since there is a red saying old Beatrice died in 1967

Title's are very different from pseudonyms like your talking about. They're not the same thing that's why Lambda said Battler solved virtually none of the mysteries in episode 4.

Your claiming that this person inherited this title called Beatrice when you don't even have a real name for her. You know virtually nothing about this character other than Maria has met her and that supposedly she kills people. Maria meeting her isn't even really a hint that a different person like that exists just that she met someone who meets the description of the person in the portrait. You also have no explanation for the closed rooms or 07151129 with this.

You have no red suggesting she exists anywhere and no death declaration for her.
Sorry, I have mistaken reading, it's 3AM here, understand me xD However, I don't see the point in all this fuss about title/pseudonyms, she is Beatrice, full stop. Beatrice can also be her real name, since there was another Battler who had died in 1967 and who is indirectly mentioned in the story and the red about the sin can be surrounded in many ways. However, I have written that the Beatrice died in 1967 was her mother so I don't see nothing wrong about it. Moreover I have described the whole life of humanBeatrice basing everything on hints found in the novel and also the life of her mother and grandmother, so I don't think that "we know just that Maria has met her" if I was able to extrapolate so far.
However Lambda just denied Battler's theories with the red truth, I don't remember anything about titles or peudonyms
And... I have already shown hints that can lead to the existance of Beato in the island, so clues have been presented, you cannot deny that.
And as I told you, I already explained the closed rooms in the other post. As it regards the number it could just have been a trick of Beato for confusing the way, Lambda herself said that Beato does a lot of "fake moves". Or maybe, very likely, it was an hint to Battler to tell him that the murderer and the one who sent the letter to Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son were the same person, since in this Episode there was one survivor and there was the chance that Battler could have entered in contact with a character of the future (things that it actually happens).
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:40   Link #10332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Here's the problem with that though: Beatrice clearly doesn't want Battler to be trapped forever. She's trying to get him out by helping him (red text, getting Ronove and Virgilia involved, etc) so your theory contradicts her motives to help Battler get out. She wants him to remember the promise, but she doesn't want him to be trapped forever on Rokkenjima. It's very likely that Beatrice was forced into starting the game, via Lambda.


This doesn't necessarily have to be a real scene. Battler doesn't see their conversation, since SuitBeato at that point goes back into the mansion from the balcony.

Your human Beatrice theory also contradicts Knox #1 right off, because she is never introduced to us in a human world perspective - only a meta-world perspective. The Suit-Beato in EP 2 and 4 doesn't count towards this because we see her appearing magically, not physically. Not to mention in EP 2 she never appears in front of Battler until the game end and by that time we see golden butterflies and a living Kinzo, which implies Battler's perspective is no longer reliable.
Beatrice in EP4 doesn't appear magically, she appears as a normal human, there's nothing that could link her to a witch...
However, what you are saying is in part right: that's why Lambdadelta got angry with Beato in the EP3 Tea Party, because she understood that Beato's real purpose was not to trap Battler forever but to make him remember the promise and let him know how much she has suffered, she just wanted to tell him "why haven't you come while I was waiting for you, even though you have promised? _ I believed in you and I have always been there waiting for you, but you never came and even though I continued waiting until today!". Try now to think to EP5 ???, or better, try to reread it from the "And then... I knew", doesn't this make sense? ("I've been the one putting you through a cruel torture"). And if you read EP3 Tea Parrty that's what transpire from Lambdadelta.
Apart from that my theory also explain who, how and why murders happened, try to read EP5 ??? and tell me if the sentiment that it gives you is not just as what I said before. And if you have time read also EP3 Tea Party and tell me what you think.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:40   Link #10333
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Here is the quote I 'm talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda
Sure is! That kid still had plenty of moves left! And none of the mysteries have been solved!
And no all your hints are circumstantial with convoluted conclusions. The only hint that might have any merit at all is that Maria has met her and there are much simpler explanations for that than completely killing off a character to replace it with your own. Your theory has no love at all.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:43   Link #10334
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Here's the problem with that though: Beatrice clearly doesn't want Battler to be trapped forever. She's trying to get him out by helping him (red text, getting Ronove and Virgilia involved, etc) so your theory contradicts her motives to help Battler get out. She wants him to remember the promise, but she doesn't want him to be trapped forever on Rokkenjima. It's very likely that Beatrice was forced into starting the game, via Lambda.


This doesn't necessarily have to be a real scene. Battler doesn't see their conversation, since SuitBeato at that point goes back into the mansion from the balcony.

Your human Beatrice theory also contradicts Knox #1 right off, because she is never introduced to us in a human world perspective - only a meta-world perspective. The Suit-Beato in EP 2 and 4 doesn't count towards this because we see her appearing magically, not physically. Not to mention in EP 2 she never appears in front of Battler until the game end and by that time we see golden butterflies and a living Kinzo, which implies Battler's perspective is no longer reliable.
I always thought Lambda used whoever Beato is to create a perfect birdcage for Bern. Here's how it goes (fantasy, of course): Beato is lamenting her inability to save her beloved family/friends from the destruction and her inability to confess to Battler her true feelings. Lambda then appears (similarily to how Bern appeared in front of Ange) and offers Beato a deal. "Play a game of logic with you beloved Battler, using the rules I outline for you. In exchange, I offer the chance to see your beloved Battler, as well as your friends and family once more. And who knows? You might even be able to find a happy ending."

@Linkin Battler:
Sorry, but no matter how well thought-out your theory is, I have to oppose it, as you place Beato as the mastermind culprit of these games. I see no reason to consider Beato as the mastermind through out these games, in fact, I actually see more evidence to prove she isn't.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

These three reds from Episode 5 heavily deny the possibility of Beato being the mastermind. They have defeated the three of the strongest possibilities for murdering the family. What is her goal, if not to make someone experience fear, to take revenge on someone, or for the sake of pleasure? To be forever with Battler? Episode 3, 4, and 5 contradict this. In Episode 3, she had the chance to have Battler submit and live forever in the Golden Land. Yet she turned her back on him, forcing him to grow stronger, strong enough to take her on in Episode 4. Once again, in Episode 4, she was ready to give in, surrender to Battler. Yet she did not. Once again, in order to let him properly solve the mysteries she had presented to him, she rose up and challenged him to kill her. Finally, the ending scene of Episode 5. Running out of faith, or patience for Battler, she allows herself to die, leaving him alone as he finally discovers the truth of this story. If she truly wanted to be with Battler, if this as truly her goal, then why did she give up on it?
I refuse to think her goal is something as pointless as this. As I've stated several times, and as Marion said above she wants Battler to escape this endless repetition of murder. I submit this as her goal: to allow Battler to uncover the mastermind behind the killings that take place on October 4th and 5th, 1986, and gather the courage and determination to confront and defeat the culprit, and find the happiest ending he can for this story.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:46   Link #10335
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That actually makes some sense... especially when we consider that Jessica could be a Beatrice and Erika emerges when Beatrice is 'dead'.
Sorry to bring this up again, but this is an idea I've been working on for a while.

Anyone else notice how Jessica's old clothes just happened to be a perfect fit for Erika?
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:47   Link #10336
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Here is the quote I 'm talking about



And no all your hints are circumstantial. The only hint that might have any merit at all is that Maria has met her and there are much simpler explanations for that than completely killing off a character to replace it with your own. Your theory has no love at all.
Yes, obviously she had xD She does not say anything about pseudonyms, she just said that Beato has a lot of moves she could have used xD But that was already clear even before Lambda saying it, that Beatrice has made everything so that she would have been killed and said everything because she has lost hope and wanted Battler to hate her.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:51   Link #10337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I always thought Lambda used whoever Beato is to create a perfect birdcage for Bern. Here's how it goes (fantasy, of course): Beato is lamenting her inability to save her beloved family/friends from the destruction and her inability to confess to Battler her true feelings. Lambda then appears (similarily to how Bern appeared in front of Ange) and offers Beato a deal. "Play a game of logic with you beloved Battler, using the rules I outline for you. In exchange, I offer the chance to see your beloved Battler, as well as your friends and family once more. And who knows? You might even be able to find a happy ending."

@Linkin Battler:
Sorry, but no matter how well thought-out your theory is, I have to oppose it, as you place Beato as the mastermind culprit of these games. I see no reason to consider Beato as the mastermind through out these games, in fact, I actually see more evidence to prove she isn't.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

These three reds from Episode 5 heavily deny the possibility of Beato being the mastermind. They have defeated the three of the strongest possibilities for murdering the family. What is her goal, if not to make someone experience fear, to take revenge on someone, or for the sake of pleasure? To be forever with Battler? Episode 3, 4, and 5 contradict this. In Episode 3, she had the chance to have Battler submit and live forever in the Golden Land. Yet she turned her back on him, forcing him to grow stronger, strong enough to take her on in Episode 4. Once again, in Episode 4, she was ready to give in, surrender to Battler. Yet she did not. Once again, in order to let him properly solve the mysteries she had presented to him, she rose up and challenged him to kill her. Finally, the ending scene of Episode 5. Running out of faith, or patience for Battler, she allows herself to die, leaving him alone as he finally discovers the truth of this story. If she truly wanted to be with Battler, if this as truly her goal, then why did she give up on it?
I refuse to think her goal is something as pointless as this. As I've stated several times, and as Marion said above she wants Battler to escape this endless repetition of murder. I submit this as her goal: to allow Battler to uncover the mastermind behind the killings that take place on October 4th and 5th, 1986, and gather the courage and determination to confront and defeat the culprit, and find the happiest ending he can for this story.
No, that wasn't her goal xd Sorry, I did not said everything well, she was maybe her goal at the beginning, but from Episode 2 on she totally changes it xD Or maybe it wasn't her goal from the beginning xD
And it was neither one of those three xD She did not want to kill everyone xD Read my previous post and you will understand what I meant... If it is still not clear, just tell me and I will repeat it...
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:52   Link #10338
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Yes, obviously she had xD She does not say anything about pseudonyms, she just said that Beato has a lot of moves she could have used xD But that was already clear even before Lambda saying it, that Beatrice has made everything so that she would have been killed and said everything because she has lost hope and wanted Battler to hate her.
If episode 5 told us anything it is not that. Beatrice wanted Battler to know the truth. Her goal was never to make him hate her. They bullied each other, but it was more of a relationship of love not hate. Your entire premise renders Battler's whole scene in the tea party of episode 5 and the scenes preceding it completely pointless.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:55   Link #10339
Raiza Sunozaki
Sorcerer of Uncertainty
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Canada! ... It's ALWAYS Canada...
Age: 21
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
In fact what you are saying is right: that's why Lambdadelta got angry with Beato in the EP3 Tea Party, because she understood that Beato's real purpose was not to trap Battler forever but to make him remember the promise and let him know how much she has suffered, she just wanted to tell him "why haven't you come while I was waiting for you, even though you have promised? _ I believed in you and I have always been there waiting for you, but you never came". Try now to think to EP5 ???, or better, try to reread it from the "And then... I knew", doesn't this make sense? ("I've been the one putting you through a cruel torture"). And if you read EP3 Tea Parrty that's what transpire from Lambdadelta.
However, Beatrice in EP4 doesn't appear magically, she appears as a normal human, there's nothing that could link her to a witch... Apart from that my theory also explain who, how and why murders happened, try to read EP5 ??? and tell me if the sentiment that it gives you is not just as what I said before. And if you have time read also EP3 Tea Party and tell me what you think.
He's been putting her through a cruel torture because he's been accusing her of killing all these people for enjoyment and pleasure, that she's a cruel heartless witch, that he hates her, that nothing would be better if she never existed. If someone you loved dearly told you these things over and over again, wouldn't you feel like you were under a torture most cruel? Lambda was getting angry at Beato in Episode 3's Ura-Tea Party because Beato was tiring of this game, beginning to bend under the torture Battler was putting her through. So Lambda offered some... "encouragement" to keep Beato on track.
Beato appears like an average human, because at that point, Battler's perspective was still reliable. He couldn't see someone appear in a flurry of golden butterflies, he can only see someone appear like an average human could. However, because of the darkness and the rain, he couldn't see who they were. So, for meta-Beato's convenience, she imposed the image of suit-Beato over the person for meta-Battler, who has a view of the gameboard and can see who it was.
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Old 2010-05-20, 20:58   Link #10340
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If episode 5 told us anything it is not that. Beatrice wanted Battler to know the truth. Her goal was never to make him hate her. They bullied each other, but it was more of a relationship of love not hate. Your entire premise renders Battler's whole scene in the tea party of episode 5 and the scenes preceding it completely pointless.
But this is what I said! Beato wanted Battler to hate her so that he could find the strenght to kill her. She obviously wanted him to find the truth, but she couldn't endure that torture anymore, after all... that. She could not bear her role anymore, she could not stand everything anymore and she couldn't even tell Battler the truth directly because of the rule of Lambda and so she.... has not been able to wait for Battler.
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