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Old 2010-05-20, 21:07   Link #10341
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
He's been putting her through a cruel torture because he's been accusing her of killing all these people for enjoyment and pleasure, that she's a cruel heartless witch, that he hates her, that nothing would be better if she never existed. If someone you loved dearly told you these things over and over again, wouldn't you feel like you were under a torture most cruel? Lambda was getting angry at Beato in Episode 3's Ura-Tea Party because Beato was tiring of this game, beginning to bend under the torture Battler was putting her through. So Lambda offered some... "encouragement" to keep Beato on track.
Beato appears like an average human, because at that point, Battler's perspective was still reliable. He couldn't see someone appear in a flurry of golden butterflies, he can only see someone appear like an average human could. However, because of the darkness and the rain, he couldn't see who they were. So, for meta-Beato's convenience, she imposed the image of suit-Beato over the person for meta-Battler, who has a view of the gameboard and can see who it was.
The bold part was evident, starting from the assumption that Beato loves Battler, there wasn't even the need to say it. But what she wanted the most was to tell him how much he has suffered waiting from him and just hug him crying on his ches and that was the motivation she wants him to know the truth, so that he could understand her pain and... I don't know how to explain it, but I think you have understood xd
On the contrary what you say about Lambda is not true, in EP3 Tea Party Lambda beginned to understand Beatrice's real purpose and warned her. ("You are starting to forget the debt you have with me")
Try to think EP4, EP5 and everything, don't this just fits it perfectly? I mean not only what I said in this post but also the other posts about the bond between Beato and Battler
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:08   Link #10342
Raiza Sunozaki
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Linkin, I'll see if I understand. You think Beato wants Battler to hate her? If so, I call utter bullshit. There's no way in any hell that Beato would want that. Why would you want the person you love so dearly, that you would bear the pain of taking the blame for killing those you love, to hate you? Beato loves Battler. This is painfully obvious. Even Battler, being incompetent, realizes this, during the Episode 5 Ura-Tea Party. We are told that somebody creates a person who is, while not confirmed, extremely identical to Beato, for the sole sake of loving Battler.
And if you think Battler doesn't love her back, you are mistaken. He grows to hate her over the original four Episodes, but after realizing who she was and what she was doing during his epiphany, he fights for her sake, and even tries to revive her during Episode 6. Hell, he fucking marries her at the end of Episode 6, if I remember correctly. If Beato's goal is to make Battler hate her, then she fails by a long shot. Which contradicts what we are given to believe, that her goal was accomplished, just after she passed away in Episode 5. And considering Battler does not hate her after that, your theory for her goal fails.
Of course, if I'm wrong and you don't believe her goal was for Battler to hate her, even though you did say this: "that Beatrice has made everything so that she would have been killed and said everything because she has lost hope and wanted Battler to hate her," then please, I take up your offer to clear up any misunderstandings between us.
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:13   Link #10343
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I just read the first sentence for now and I say NO, Beatrice doesn't wants Battler to hate her xD Beato wants Battler to know the truth, but in EP4 she just couldn't this torture anymore, so she have made so that he would hate her finding the strenght to kill her
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:15   Link #10344
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
that's why Lambdadelta got angry with Beato in the EP3 Tea Party, because she understood that Beato's real purpose was not to trap Battler forever but to make him remember the promise and let him know how much she has suffered, she just wanted to tell him "why haven't you come while I was waiting for you, even though you have promised? _ I believed in you and I have always been there waiting for you, but you never came and even though I continued waiting until today!"
Understood what I say? (I quoted myself XDDD)
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:15   Link #10345
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
On the contrary what you say about Lambda is not true, Lambda beginned to understand Beatrice's real purpose and warned her. ("You are starting to forget the debt you have with me")
Lambda has known everything from the very beginning. Why else could she become the Game Master so easily in Episode 5? The Game Master can only be someone who understands completely the mysteries of Umineko. What she noticed was that Beato was slacking in her attempts to win against Battler. Lambda wants an endless cycle of ties in this game, as a perfect birdcage for Bern. So if it looks like Beato is beginning to lose against Battler, or if it looks like Beato is giving up, Lambda must strengthen Beato's game. In this case, she does by using some very simple blackmail. Beato owes Lambda a great debt for setting up this game, so Beato must do everything Lambda wants, lest she incur the penalty for failure. Which Lambda seemed pretty confident in the terror of.
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:22   Link #10346
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Lambda has known everything from the very beginning. Why else could she become the Game Master so easily in Episode 5? The Game Master can only be someone who understands completely the mysteries of Umineko. What she noticed was that Beato was slacking in her attempts to win against Battler. Lambda wants an endless cycle of ties in this game, as a perfect birdcage for Bern. So if it looks like Beato is beginning to lose against Battler, or if it looks like Beato is giving up, Lambda must strengthen Beato's game. In this case, she does by using some very simple blackmail. Beato owes Lambda a great debt for setting up this game, so Beato must do everything Lambda wants, lest she incur the penalty for failure. Which Lambda seemed pretty confident in the terror of.
Lambda knowing the mistery of Umineko means she knows who kills the people (humanBeato), how and why, but she doesn't mean she can enter in Beato's mind.
It is "for Lambda" that Beatrice creates the gameboard and it is Lambda to test that it is perfect, so she obviously knows everything of the gameboard and of what happened to Beato.
But Lambda cannot read in Beato's mind and in EP3 she then understand Beato's real purpose and warn her.
(P.S. Do you have msn? We can speak there if you want, you find my account on my profile.)
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Last edited by Linkin Battler; 2010-05-20 at 21:36. Reason: I forgot to write "how" xD
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:34   Link #10347
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I just read the first sentence for now and I say NO, Beatrice doesn't wants Battler to hate her xD Beato wants Battler to know the truth, but in EP4 she just couldn't this torture anymore, so she have made so that he would hate her finding the strenght to kill her
She wants him to find the strength to destroy the Illusion of the Witch, which effectively kills the existence of Beatrice. Erika shows this by being a bitch in Episode 5 and killing her off. I can understand why this could be confused with killing the mastermind, who you seem to have pinned as Beato.
But Beato, as the human she is disguised as, has no motive to kill people. All the reasonable motives have been blocked off by Episode 5's red. Beato is one of the 17 on the island. She is undoubtably a female, as Ryuukishi does not support yaoi relationships in his stories. She also is in love with Battler, romantically, eliminating Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie and Maria, and make Kumasawa incredibly unlikely. The only ones who remain are now Jessica, Shannon and Rosa, though the last one would be a severely disturbing plot twist, so it's safe to remove her.
We remain with Jessica and Shannon as the only possible candidates for Beato. There exists no motive for either Jessica or Shannon to mastermind an island-wide murder. They are not doing it to cause fear, they are not doing it for revenge (hereby eliminating motives such as to "encourage" solving of the Epitaph or so that Battler would remember his sin). They are not doing it for the sake of pleasure, so such motives such as killing to find the gold, as Jessica and Shannon have no need for the gold aside from the pleasure of having ten tonnes of gold.

Once again, I repeat. What we are led to believe is that Beato's goal is accomplished, but after she dies. It's hard for her goal of being killed by Battler to be accomplished after her death, when her death isn't even done by Battler's hands.
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:43   Link #10348
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Lambda knowing the mistery of Umineko means she knows who kills the people (humanBeato) and why, but she doesn't mean she can enter in Beato's mind.
It is "for Lambda" tha Beatrice creates the gameboard and it is Lambda to test that it is perfect, so she obviously knows everything of the gameboard and of what happened to Beato.
But Lambda cannot read in Beato's mind and in EP3 she then understand Beato's real purpose and warn her.
(P.S. Do you have msn? We can speak there if you want, you find my account on my profile.)
No, to be the Game Master, you must understand everything about the game board Beatrice designs, including Beato herself. Here's how I prove it. The Gold Truth of Episode 5, is a truth that can only be used by the Game Master. We are told this by Lambda. However, Virgillia has her own line about the Gold. She say that when Battler uses the Gold, it is proof that he understands Beato's heart. In case your unfamiliar, saying someone understands someone's heart usually means you understand their mind.
So here's where my mathematical mind kicks in.
Use of Gold Text = Title of Game Master
Use of Gold Text = Understanding of Beato
In other words:
Title of Game Master = Understanding of Beato
Lambda has understood everything of Umineko from the beginning. This is why she was so confident Battler and Bern would not be able to solve them. This is why she lent Beato some of her power. She has known everything about Beato from the beginning. Beato's real purpose is for Battler to win against her. So Lambda created guidelines for Beato to follow in the creation of the games, so that Beato could not do that so easily. If I were Bern, I'd call these Rules X Y Z.

Oh, and no, I don't use MSN. Such things are trivial nuisances to me.
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:48   Link #10349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
She wants him to find the strength to destroy the Illusion of the Witch, which effectively kills the existence of Beatrice. Erika shows this by being a bitch in Episode 5 and killing her off. I can understand why this could be confused with killing the mastermind, who you seem to have pinned as Beato.
But Beato, as the human she is disguised as, has no motive to kill people. All the reasonable motives have been blocked off by Episode 5's red. Beato is one of the 17 on the island. She is undoubtably a female, as Ryuukishi does not support yaoi relationships in his stories. She also is in love with Battler, romantically, eliminating Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie and Maria, and make Kumasawa incredibly unlikely. The only ones who remain are now Jessica, Shannon and Rosa, though the last one would be a severely disturbing plot twist, so it's safe to remove her.
We remain with Jessica and Shannon as the only possible candidates for Beato. There exists no motive for either Jessica or Shannon to mastermind an island-wide murder. They are not doing it to cause fear, they are not doing it for revenge (hereby eliminating motives such as to "encourage" solving of the Epitaph or so that Battler would remember his sin). They are not doing it for the sake of pleasure, so such motives such as killing to find the gold, as Jessica and Shannon have no need for the gold aside from the pleasure of having ten tonnes of gold.

Once again, I repeat. What we are led to believe is that Beato's goal is accomplished, but after she dies. It's hard for her goal of being killed by Battler to be accomplished after her death, when her death isn't even done by Battler's hands.
Raiza, have you read my theory (the link on the signature)? I think you cannot understand that because you did not understand the main point of my theory.
That explains almost everything in Umineko if that is true and say the who dunnit and the how dunnit and also the why dunnit (even though you have already understood the why dunnit)
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:53   Link #10350
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It is "for Lambda" that Beatrice creates the gameboard and it is Lambda to test that it is perfect, so she obviously knows everything of the gameboard and of what happened to Beato.
Actually Beatrice most probably created the gameboard for Battler and she asked Lambda the power to create that gameboard. Lambda granted Beatrice that power, but apparently in exchange Lambda is free to see anything in the gameboard.

Anyway you are right when you say that Beatrice wanted Battler to hate her, but that's because of her ambivalence. From one side she wants something, from the other side she wants the opposite. She's fickle.

She actually wants Battler to love her, but in some occasions she acts in the total opposite way.

At the end of Episode2, so to move him from his apathy giving him the will to keep fighting.
At the end of Episode3, for the same reason, more or less.
Then at the end of Episode4, Beatrice really wished to die after knowing that Battler didn't even remembered his sin. So he made Battler hate her, in order to be killed, by the very person she loves.

Quote:
No, to be the Game Master, you must understand everything about the game board Beatrice designs, including Beato herself.
Wrong. Old sis Beatrice knows practically nothing about Beato and yet she uses the golden truth.
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Old 2010-05-20, 21:55   Link #10351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
No, to be the Game Master, you must understand everything about the game board Beatrice designs, including Beato herself. Here's how I prove it. The Gold Truth of Episode 5, is a truth that can only be used by the Game Master. We are told this by Lambda. However, Virgillia has her own line about the Gold. She say that when Battler uses the Gold, it is proof that he understands Beato's heart. In case your unfamiliar, saying someone understands someone's heart usually means you understand their mind.
So here's where my mathematical mind kicks in.
Use of Gold Text = Title of Game Master
Use of Gold Text = Understanding of Beato
In other words:
Title of Game Master = Understanding of Beato
Lambda has understood everything of Umineko from the beginning. This is why she was so confident Battler and Bern would not be able to solve them. This is why she lent Beato some of her power. She has known everything about Beato from the beginning. Beato's real purpose is for Battler to win against her. So Lambda created guidelines for Beato to follow in the creation of the games, so that Beato could not do that so easily. If I were Bern, I'd call these Rules X Y Z.

Oh, and no, I don't use MSN. Such things are trivial nuisances to me.
Yes, you're right, in fact that explain the rules that Lambda has given Beato (following my theory xD)... Yes, I've never asked myself but you are without any doubt right, Lambdadelta knew what Beato wanted to do from the beginning.
In EP3 Tea Party she just said "Beato, I'm not stupid, I know what you're doing".
(P.S. What about Skype? )
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:00   Link #10352
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually Beatrice most probably created the gameboard for Battler and she asked Lambda the power to create that gameboard. Lambda granted Beatrice that power, but apparently in exchange Lambda is free to see anything in the gameboard.

Anyway you are right when you say that Beatrice wanted Battler to hate her, but that's because of her ambivalence. From one side she wants something, from the other side she wants the opposite. She's fickle.

She actually wants Battler to love her, but in some occasions she acts in the total opposite way.

At the end of Episode2, so to move him from his apathy giving him the will to keep fighting.
At the end of Episode3, for the same reason, more or less.
Then at the end of Episode4, Beatrice really wished to die after knowing that Battler didn't even remembered his sin. So he made Battler hate her, in order to be killed, by the very person she loves.



Wrong. Old sis Beatrice knows practically nothing about Beato and yet she uses the golden truth.
Yes, that is what I meant before saying she wanted Battler to hate her...
However, what Beato gave in exchange to Lambda is the permission to use her gameboard to make Bern surrender (and afterwards she changes idea and wants Bern to be trapped in it)... but I think Beato created the gameboard AFTER meeting Lambdadelta: Beato asked her wish to Lambda and Lambda answered: "I'll grant your wish if you create a perfect gameboard"
Afterwards Lambda, who is fickle, gives Beato the rules that she must follow.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:03   Link #10353
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The golden truth is a how not a why. And you definitely don't have to be the game master to use it. Like Ryukishi said it's like a finishing move in a fighting game you just have to figure out what buttons to mash. Heh I was really surprised that he he used the same kind of metaphor I did when I related the colored texts to the braun tube trial
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:05   Link #10354
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The golden truth is a how not a why. And you definitely don't have to be the game master to use it.
Ryu07 confirmed it
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:06   Link #10355
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Ryu07 confirmed it
Huh? No he didn't. He just said Lambda probably could use it too. Big difference there.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:07   Link #10356
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The problem with your theory is that your theory has no understanding of Beatrice. There is red text saying that she was not involved in the murders and that she is being used as a scapegoat. There is nothing supporting her coming to the island, especially with the limit of 'no more than 17' and the fact that there is a damn typhoon around. The only reason Erika was stated to even get to the island was because she was thrown overboard on a boat and nearly drowned to death if it hadn't been for her life jacket. Your theory conveniently solves everything by blaming it on Beatrice - the one thing that the game has been telling us not to do is to blame Beatrice! Even Ronove snickers at the idea when Battler realizes that there was a human Beatrice that he was prepared to blame everything on.

EP 2's human Beatrice is never seen by Battler until the end of the game, but that scene isn't trustworthy with the golden butterflies and a living Kinzo. You talk about Battler's detective perspective, but fail to mention that there is no proof that what Maria, Rosa, Kyrie and Genji saw was a separate person. Maria is a gullible kid and the other three could easily be lying.

In EP 4 the Beatrice that Battler sees can be a person in disguise. There is no red about anyone being dead at that point, so it isn't hard to imagine that Shannon or Jessica dressed up. The Beatrice that the Suit-Beatrice was talking to could easily be in the latter's own mind, because Battler never sees the former.

And as I already said, EP 6 explains how Meta-Beatrice was created. I'll say right now that it has nothing to do with Lambdadelta or anything of the sort.

As for golden truth, you don't need to be a gamemaster at all. Battler was able to use in in EP 5 for the first time before Lambda appointed him a sorcerer.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:09   Link #10357
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Yes, that is what I meant before saying she wanted Battler to hate her...
However, what Beato gave in exchange to Lambda is the permission to use her gameboard to make Bern surrender (and afterwards she changes idea and wants Bern to be trapped in it)... but I think Beato created the gameboard AFTER meeting Lambdadelta: Beato asked her wish to Lambda and Lambda answered: "I'll grant your wish if you create a perfect gameboard"
Afterwards Lambda, who is fickle, gives Beato the rules that she must follow.
There is an incongruency. According to Ep6, Beato asked Lambda the power to create a perfect murder mystery story to begin with.

Lambda had no reason to make that condition since it was beatrice's wish.

Quote:
As for golden truth, you don't need to be a gamemaster at all. Battler was able to use in in EP 5 for the first time before Lambda appointed him a sorcerer
I think we all agree with that. The problem is the other part. The statement that in order to use the golden truth you need to understand everything about the game.
Despite that statement, there is evidence that you can use a golden truth even without understanding "everything". So that "everything" must probably be interpreted in some way.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:11   Link #10358
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Raiza, have you read my theory (the link on the signature)? I think you cannot understand that because you did not understand the main point of my theory.
That explains almost everything in Umineko if that is true and say the who dunnit and the how dunnit and also the why dunnit (even though you have already understood the why dunnit)
My biggest problem with your theory is Beatrice, which I find flaw after flaw in your explanation with. And the thing about a theory that explains all of Umineko? Everything is connected to everything else. If there's one flaw, then the theory cannot explain everything. It becomes like all Shkanon theories: explaining some parts while creating confusion for others.
As for your "Wall of Text" theory, it is exactly that. I get confused trying to read it. You throw too much out at once. Paragraph it or give shortened notes of it, so that others can understand it better. Firstly you say Beatrice the First gave Kinzo one gold ingot? How do explain he gathered the other nine-hundred and ninety-nine? Because Episode 5 confirms them to exist.
Now onto your switch between Beato and Shannon. This is nothing new, I saw a similar theory to this months ago. However, one: there is no proof to a swap between Beato and Shannon, two: it's been stated in red (and before this post, a bit up) that six years ago, Beatrice did not exist for Battler. How can someone meet another person if they don't exist?

You also have created another person, it seems. The grandchild of Beato the First, the child of Beato the Second and Kinzo. Who is this person? As I elaborated upon before, they must be one of the 17. You cannot solve all of Umineko without saying who. Unless you find a way to eliminate another person. Do you plan to use Shkanon? If so, that's another thing I must stand in opposition to you in.
Oh, and another flaw in your theory. In a non-fantasy sense, no interaction between piece and meta characters is permitted. If by Knox's 2nd, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique, then in an equal battle between both sides, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a murdering technique. In short, any interaction between meta-Beato and piece-Beato is forbidden! Do not confuse fantasy and mystery!

Oh, and Skype is included in "trivial things like that," so no.

Last edited by Raiza Sunozaki; 2010-05-20 at 22:29.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:15   Link #10359
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In my opinion it's 95% a patchwork of old theories and 5% original ideas.

There are quite a few things that I agree with, and some things I do not. Especially the part of the bombs.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:28   Link #10360
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I think we all agree with that. The problem is the other part. The statement that in order to use the golden truth you need to understand everything about the game.
Despite that statement, there is evidence that you can use a golden truth even without understanding "everything". So that "everything" must probably be interpreted in some way.
Well in the latest interview he seems to act like it's more about the situation your in when you use the golden truth than what you know when you use it. Maybe it's about understanding the XYZ rules of the game or maybe it's just about having a neutral answer in the situation it's used in.

Are we absolutely 100% sure that the gold text used in episode 6 is inferior to the red? Battler sort of beat knox in episode 5 so...
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