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Old 2010-05-20, 22:36   Link #10361
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Are we absolutely 100% sure that the gold text used in episode 6 is inferior to the red? Battler sort of beat knox in episode 5 so...
Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic.

Unless magic exists, it must be inferior, right?
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:38   Link #10362
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic.

Unless magic exists, it must be inferior, right?
You'd think that, but we don't even know what magic is via definition.
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Old 2010-05-20, 22:57   Link #10363
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
In a non-fantasy sense, no interaction between piece and meta characters is permitted. If by Knox's 2nd, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique, then in an equal battle between both sides, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a murdering technique. In short, any interaction between meta-Beato and piece-Beato is forbidden! Do not confuse fantasy and mystery!
I wonder what the actual boundaries of this rule are. On its surface, it seems to only forbid the detective from using supernatural agencies. So if there was some supernatural element to the mystery, but the detective reasoned its existence out by using mundane investigative techniques to uncover properly presented clues, is that really disallowed?

For that matter, what is a "supernatural agency" for the purposes of the rule? Producing meta knowledge seems to qualify, but is something like a seance disallowed if the world legitimately has evil spirits?
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:06   Link #10364
Kylon99
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By the way, Linkin's theory kind of touched a series of ideas. He said that someone has to maintain an illusion that Kanon is alive... here's the idea that just popped into my head.


Kanon is the heir in Kinzo's will. Through his promise, the servants will be the ones to inherit either the gold or some money. In other words, the servants are also another inheritance faction. They keep the illusion of Kinzo being alive to keep Natsuhi unaware, but they burn the body to expose his death. If his death is exposed, his will can be executed.

The Beatrice faction (the servants) can also declare that they 'own' the gold through the will. The will also attests to the existence of the gold. They sometimes collude with Eva's anti-inheritance faction. They can sometimes collude Krauss and Natsuhi. They can bribe people to play dead with this will.

If Kanon is exposed to be already dead, then the will loses its meaning. So Shannon is forced to 'play' him. But she doesn't want to, forever. She would rather marry George and leave the island.

Ok... so... how viable is this idea? Are there clues? If we can figure out which side the Beatrice faction sides with (and possibly reveal to one faction that Kanon is indeed dead), if they do at all, are there clues that show they try to maintain the illusion to the opposite side?


Anyways, I had been thinking about Kanon lately and trying to associate his 'events' with other events, especially Kinzo. For example... Kanon seems to die if Kinzo's body is burned. Kanon can 'survive' to the last end in most episodes by faking his death. Kanon seems to turn and kill people, even supposedly fellow servants. Etc, etc. I had hoped to figure something out using that though...
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:06   Link #10365
KnightOfTwo
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Linkin, you contradicted yourself when you said Beatrice killed Kanon at the start of the game, have Beatrice as the culprit and then use the red In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!. It does not matter that you claim Kanon is already dead, even if he is, you claim that he was killed by Beatrice and that she is the culprit on the island.
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:07   Link #10366
Thunder Book
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You'd think that, but we don't even know what magic is via definition.
Going by the gameboards, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a definition along the lines of "Magic is what we call what we cannot explain at this time using humans means" or something.
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:07   Link #10367
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I wonder what the actual boundaries of this rule are. On its surface, it seems to only forbid the detective from using supernatural agencies. So if there was some supernatural element to the mystery, but the detective reasoned its existence out by using mundane investigative techniques to uncover properly presented clues, is that really disallowed?

For that matter, what is a "supernatural agency" for the purposes of the rule? Producing meta knowledge seems to qualify, but is something like a seance disallowed if the world legitimately has evil spirits?
I bet you can even have a supernatural detective that employs magic and furniture, but as to actually solving the mystery uses reason and logic.

Like...

Erika. *cough*
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:16   Link #10368
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic.
A little off-topic, but after looking at that sentence again I wondered about the golden rose petal. So I looked it up and...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose

More religious symbolism from Ryukishi!
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:20   Link #10369
KnightOfTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
A little off-topic, but after looking at that sentence again I wondered about the golden rose petal. So I looked it up and...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose

More religious symbolism from Ryukishi!
Thats why it's sometimes inferior and sometimes superior to red, it depends on the amount of love contained in the statement
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:24   Link #10370
Kylon99
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Ok, to continue along with that Kanon-Heir line of thinking...

As theorized before, George and Hideyoshi hijinks are likely. Perhaps George as the culprit works here not because he wants the gold or is mean, but he simply wants Shannon. And in order to have Shannon he has to work to free her from the responsibility of 'playing' Kanon. With Hideyoshi, maybe he already has knowledge of the will and wants to ensure the siblings or his family alone gets a cut?


Oh, one problem is, if only Kanon could claim his name then Shannon can't really play him. I was about to suggest that it could be Shannon is the heir and Kanon has to play her... but... I'd assume it would turn out to be something George wouldn't know until their wedding night. I don't think Ryukishi would write it like that:

Kanon: "Hey George, come to bed. I have a 'surprise' for you."


EDIT: Oh yah, right... it could also be the case where no one takes his name exactly. They can pretend that he did something if they all agreed to it. The same with Kinzo, though disguises are possible with Kanon since he doesn't have red text saying it won't be effective.
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:36   Link #10371
Linkin Battler
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PREMISES

The very first premise is that the culprit is a humanBeatrice that can communicate with the metaBeatrice (the connection between the metaworld and the gameboard is hinted in many places: first of all metaBeatrice talking to humanBeatrice in EP4 in the balcony scene, then the fact that the game "evolves": Beatrice in EP4 said that she killed the people blowing away half of their faces because in EP1 she saw that was the best method to kill and other stuff, furthermore I think that Beatrice's "I'm preparing the game" means instructing what to do to pieceBeatrice and many more hints). Be careful, I am not talking about magic. As we know, the metaworld is a world that exists parallel to the real world and where magic is allowed to exist, it is not stupid to think the existance of a link between those world, that, as it has been hinted, is dreams. MetaBeatrice is able to hide the truth behind the games to Battler, thanks to three illusions she has created: Kinzo's illusion, Illusion of Magic and Kanon/Shannon Illusion.

Evidences of the existence of a human Beato: in EP2 many people (Maria, Rosa, Kyrie and Genji) give testimony of having seen Beatrice that in Kyrie's opinion who has compared her face to the portrait, is the portrait's subject, always in EP2 Maria tells Rosa she has met Beatrice a lot of times in the previous family conferences, in the end of EP1 Battler says that Maria was running up to the portrait's subject and in EP4 Battler, who is the detective of the first four Episodes and has an OBJECTIVE point of view, sees Beatrice on the island.
There is also another very big hint of this: EVA in EP3 tries to trick Battler making him think she has said in red "the only survivors on the island are you, Jessica and Eva, but none of those three are connected with Nanjo's homicide", but in fact she only says "there are no more than 18 people, 15 are dead, Battler, Jessica and Eva are alive and those three has no relation with Nanjo's homicide" and makes him think that they are the only three survivors (in fact she says "So you understand that accordingly, when the last victim, Nanjo, died, only three people were alive, right?" and even though she hasn't said it in red, Battler believes as a ninny). She never said in red "you three are the only survivors" or "only Battler, Jessica and Eva are alive", since she simply cannot do since Beatrice is on the island it and her objective is clearly to make him think that no 18th (in reality 17th, since Kinzo is dead) person exists!
Also, I personally think that Maria must have learned all the magic and scribbles somewhere, she couldn't just have invented everything. And there is also the fact that Maria says that Beatrice gave her the letter and the umbrella in many Episodes.

Evidences of Kinzo's illusion: already confirmed in EP5

Evidences of Kanon's/Shannon's illusion: Battler, the detective, NEVER NEVER NEVER sees them together, not even once. In EP4 Battler finds only four corpses of the people who were in Kyrie's group, even though there should be five corpses. In EP2 Beatrice says in red that Kanon is dead at the time of the 2nd twilight, but Shannon, Gohda and Genji say he appeared, so they are without any doubt lying. Zepar and Furfur are also an evidence of that. Why putting a trap in Umineko? I don’t think it is accidental, try to think about it: Zepar and Furfur are clearly the metarepresentation of Shannon and Kanon. They should be, in fact, of a different gender, just as Shannon and Kanon (and in fact the tips confirm they are of a difference gender), but even considering that, they both appear to us as a girl. Why? Simple, because when we see Shannon or Kanon they are always the same person (in nearly every Episode Shannon). Another hint that leads to Shannon's/Kanon's illusion is that in EP4 ??? Lambda and in EP4 TP Beatrice say in red that "the identities of all UNIDENTIFIED corpses are guaranteed" instead of "ALL the identities are guaranteed", and that is because there was the identity of one "identified" corpse that was not confirmed: I am referring to Shannon's corpse, that, even though half of her face has been blown away, should be "confirmed" since half of the face was safe. But in fact, that was Kanon's corpse, who has been killed on the previous day, before the arrival of the siblings. As a matter of fact, that corpse was the most hidden and is seen only by Nanjo, Kanon and, for a little time, by Hideyoshi.
My interpretation of ShKannon is that they are definitely two different people but, in order to create a perfect gameboard, humanBeatrice kills one of them before the arriving of the sibling (thus not changing the setup of the games, since it begins at the beginning of 4th October) and compel the remaining one to create the illusion of both existing on the island (that's why in EP1 Battler first sees Kanon, then Shannon, then Kanon again, then Shannon again, but strangely enough not even once together...), but even with the interpretation "they are the same person with double personality" (that is full of plot holes, conflicts with many red texts and does not make sense at all) my theory works. But I don't think that they can be the same person, since I think it is impossible that Hideyoshi is lying to George in EP1 seeing he sees a corpse while there isn't any (if they are the same persone there couldn't be Shannon's corpse, since "no body double tricks exist").


BEATRICE'S BIRTH AND LIFE

In the war Kinzo had met a very rich woman he fell in love with and she is the cause of his complete change of character (in EP1 they say that something like this is plausible, she could be the so called "blond mistress" of EP1, whom they talk about in EP1 and in other EPs). Also this woman fell in love with Kinzo and decided to fund him with one gold ingot (which is the one who Krauss will later found) that he used as a collateral. Thanks to his talent for business he became very rich. Thanks to his nose for deals a whole island passed under his control and then he built up in his island his mansion and a a secret mansion, the Kuwadorian (why building a secret mansion without the presence of a lover? (even though the Kuwadorian may be older then the principal residence)), where this woman went to live in 1946 (plus or less, Kawabata says that he provided the Kuwadorian with goods from about 50 years before 1996 to about 30 years before 1996, that is plus or less from 1945 to 1965). After few years (4-5) this woman began to tire herself of Kinzo, but she was confined there by him and was not allowed to escape, so she committed suicide (metaBeatrice said that Beatrice suicided in the beginning of EP3). After dying, all the gold which was hers and which she kept in her mansion, the Kuwadorian, passed to Kinzo and this is the famous "gold of the witch". Kinzo took then a blond child from the Fukuin House or maybe - much less probable - formerBeatrice gave birth to a child before dying (do you remember Beatrice saying about her committing suicide and then Kinzo "trapping her soul in the body of a child"?), who is the girl who has been killed by Rosa on 1966. This girl has always lived in the Kuwadorian not having ever gone out and she considered Kinzo, who frequently raped her, as a father and a friend. (She has lived as a bird in cage, it would seem normal to her until Kinzo says so.)

However she died nineteen years ago but, before dying, she has given birth to a child (an hint of this can be found when Beatrice says that "after Beatrice was killed, MY soul was released" and also in the dream metaBeatrice has in EP3). This girl is the human that in 1986 will commit the murders on Rokkenjima. However, since this little girl is Kinzo and rosaBeatrice’s child he considers her as his child and let her live under the cares of Kumasawa and other servants (remember that at the beginning of EP3, metaBeatrice has a dream of her as a child where compares Virgilia, i.e. Kumasawa and other servants and that is a DIRECT DREAM of metaBeato). Kinzo didn't let her live in Kuwadorian, since it was not a secure place anymore after rosaBeatrice’s death, but decided to build an house on Niijima where she could live under the cares and the SURVEILLANCE of many servants (I remember that in one of the question arc they say something about Kinzo leaving the island for many days, don't they?). The same way rosaBeatrice called Kinzo father, her daughter calls it grandfather. Kumasawa considers her as a daughter and often brought Shannon when she went taking care of that child. She became good friend with Shannon since they were also of about the same age. Then on one of the family conference (it could be from 10 to 6 years ago), this girl asked Shannon whether she could disguise herself as her and meet her "family" for just once (following my theory it sure has happened six years ago, but nothing violated it to happen even seven and/or eight years ago, etc., the important is that it happened six years ago). Shannon accepted and the person who has gone to the family conference was that girl and not Shannon. She then met Battler for the first time and fell in strong love with him. She continued to meet him every year (don't know how many times it happened) until six years ago. Six years ago Battler probably made a promise to this girl, it could be that he would return or maybe an eternal love promise. There is a strong hint of that (Beatrice disguised as Shannon) in the sentence Beatrice told Battler to repeat in red: "Six years ago FOR ME, no person CALLED Beatrice existed.". Obviously a person called Beatrice (her) existed and also a special person for Battler, but since he is convinced to have met Shannon no person called Beatrice existed FOR HIM. Furthermore it is also possible that Beatrice is not her real name, even though it is hinted to be like that. However, she waited for a long time (she felt a love similar to Shion's for Satoshi), but Battler never did return and this is the Battler's sin. Furthermore "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.", because both Beatrice could not be her real name (but her mother's name) or else since in that moment (EP4) she thaught he was not the Battler she met 6 years ago but the other one (that is why she was angry and wanted to go away from the game) and since another Battler exists that sentence is still valid (because of the existance of 2 Battlers). And in fact, she does not say "The sin is not something between you and me".

However, she was really desperate and did not know what to do. Lambdadelta in the Tanabata EXTRA Tip says that she would willingly grant whishes of humans, if only they are ready to give up everything for granting that wish, and she could even realize the wish of a little girl who desires to become God (an allusion to Takano of Higurashi). Beatrice wanted Battler to return and to be with her and Lambda decided to hear her scream and grant her wish, but with one condition: she doesn't have Battler to know the truth, if he understands everything, she will die, while if she wins and make him surrender, they will be able to stay together forever (or something similar), so more perfect is the gameboard she creates, lower will be the chances for Battler to know the truth and that is why Beato dies in EP5. She has to create a perfect crime and after they (Battler and Beato) both die, they will be "sent" in the place where the metabattle will take place by Lambda (the same happens to Ange, that after she dies in Rokkenjima Bern sends her to save Battler). In fact imho metaBattler and metaBeatrice are nothing but pieceBattler and pieceBeatrice of EP1 (or maybe the agglomeration of the various pieceBattler and pieceBeatrice). The objective of this is obvious: Lambda wants to use the gameboard to make Bernkastel surrender (at first) and later, when she understands what Beatrice's true aim, to trap her ther forever. A big hint of this pact between Lambda and Beato is given in EP3 Tea Party, when Lambdadelta speaks to Beatrice and said (1) she is the one who has allowed her to be a witch, (2) that she has tested her gameboard is perfect and (3) that Beatrice is nothing more than a temporary witch, who Lambdadelta could easily send to her previous miserable situation.
And not casually, the same proposal will be done by Lambdadelta also to Ange (Lambda to Ange: "if you support me, you will be able to be with Battler forever").

Now, the problem is “this would allow the existance of magic on the GB”. Yes, that is in part actually true, but... let’s start with this: the metaworld is a world parallel to our where witches are allowed to exist in Umineko. Between those two worlds there is only one method to communicate and it is by dreaming. The only way witches appear in front of people is in dreams: Bernkastel appears to Ange in a dream after the return of Eva (Tanabata Tip), the same is for Beatrice and Maria and for, now pieceBeatrice and Lambda. We know for sure that there have been a pact between Lambda and Beatrice before she became a witch (it is far more than clear in EP3 Tea Party). This is the only possibility. One more thing: there is also only one method that allows people from Umineko real world to go to metaworld and that is death. Allowed by Bernkastel, Ange went to MW after her death. Allowed by Lambdadelta, Battler and pieceBeatrice in the end of EP1 went to MW.

However, Beatrice was in love with Battler and she soon understands that that was not what she wanted. She just wanted to let Battler know how she has felt, how big was the pain she felt because he never came back, wanted to tell him the truth and she soon understand she has mistook so she suddenly changes his objective (that's why Lambda will get angry with her in EP3 TP). But Lambda is not stupid and she understood this from the beginning and that's why she gave her the rule she couldn't reveal her true identity, nor could tell Battler the real truth. And so Beatrice has been obliged to continue the game by Lambdadelta, being called a monster and hearing "I hate you" from the one he loved the most.
Beatrice's hesitation in EP4 is probably due to the fact that she started to think he is not the Battler she met 6 years ago, but another Battler (in fact he "is not Asumu's son") and MAYBE that is why she allowed him to kill her. Or maybe she understand afterwards he is the real Battler and gives to him her wish to know the truth.



GAMEBOARD PREPARATION BEFORE THE STARTING OF THE GAMES

Before the game starts and everything happens, Beatrice worked to create the perfect gameboard as Lambdadelta wanted. She is the one that put the bombs through the whole island (the only place safe was the place where the gold was kept) and brought all the servants by her side: Nanjo hadn't got any other relation to the island after Kinzo's death and he had a sick grandaughter, so he needed money (remember the 100 milion given to the son of Nanjo? That were the money she had promised him). The same is for Kumasawa-baa which considers her as a daughter and MAYBE for Gohda (not sure about him though). For Genji is a bit different, he saw in Beato the new master to obey to, now that Kinzo was dead. The last ones was Shannon/Kanon (it depends on which one it remains in life), who could easily be blackmailed because of their love and in fact they always die before their respective lovers, except for the 5th arc (but in the 5th arc there is the so called "Land of the Golden Witch" which I'll discuss later).
As it regards the epitatph, Kinzo - before dying in Aug. 1985 - really created the riddle of the epitaph to choose an heir. As for the picture of the witch, it is a tribute to the real owner of the gold, his lost love. The painter has done a picture of humanBeatrice, which represent Kinzo's lost love.


ADULT CONSPIRATION

But that’s not all: there is also another conspiration, the adults’ conspiration. But before talking about it I should say something about the 19 years ago boy: Natsuhi in the 5th arc says he is dead and that both the corpses of the old servant and of the baby were found. So I think there are no doubts about his death and even if he wasn’t dead, who could have possibly told him about her mother pushing him off the climb, if only Natsuhi knows about it? I think it is not possible for any 19 Years ago boy to exist, and now I turn over the chessboard and I’ll ask: who could have possibly known about a Natsuhi’s child 19 years ago? In that period Krauss was out and on the island there were only the servant, Kinzo, Natsuhi and another person: ROSA. She was still young and we know that she was on the island 19 years ago, so she knew of that child. And know let’s speak of the adults’ conspiration: all the adults not living on the island (Eva, Rudolph, Rosa, Hideyoshi and Kyrie) started to doubt Kinzo’s existence and wanted to make Krauss reveal the truth about it. So one of them proposed to create a “fake homicide” (remember Rudolph saying “I will probably die tonight” and Kyrie laughing at him?) to put Krauss and Natsuhi under pressure and make them reveal the truth (obviously this plan is a total fail, they are killed even before they try it...). And then Rosa remembered this thing about this 19 years ago boy and someone (probably Kyrie) could have proposed to fake the existence of this boy to put Natsuhi under pressure (between her and Krauss she is without any doubt the weaker one). And the FIRST call Natsuhi receive from the boy of 19 years ago, the one before the starting of the family conference, is probably all an act thought up by the siblings. And not only that: also the hands painted on Natsuhi’s door were all an act of the adults. The hands painted on the door was the hint that made me thought that: in EP2 Natsuhi has been killed on the first twilight, but someone also did paint the hands on the door. What that means? Simple, that the murderer is not connected with the one who painted hands on Natsuhi’s door, because if the painted hands are a “warning” to Natsuhi, what is the meaning of doing that before killing her? Nothing at all. So, excluding the existence of another person, the 19 years ago boy, I just thought up this theory about the parents and I think it could be plausible. In EP1-5 they are the one who sends them the calls before the starting of the game (the one Lambda hinted where he says "I will come, mother") and in EP5 obviously are the parents that puts her under pressure with fake homicides (Hideyoshi's one is obviously a fake homicide as the 1st twilight).


TWO BATTLERS?

By the red text of EP4, we know that there probably are two Battlers, since:
I am Ushiromiya Battler
It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.
It was from Ushiromiya[, ......, ......nguh, ............?! ......?!?!"]
(The original statement reads: It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you {Battler} were born.)
That means that there is for sure one Asumu's Battler, probably the 19 years ago boy that Natsuhi killed and another Battler (probably Kyrie's Battler), the one we see in all the games.
Asumu's real child has been probable taken by Kinzo, who gave it to Natsuhi (I don’t think Kinzo would just take the first orphan he finds and give him to Natsuhi saying: “Bring up this orphan as my true heir!”), but he died, just as Natsuhi says. Then, somehow, Kyrie's Battler has been entrusted to Asumu after the death of Asumu's real child.
Now, why Kyrie's son has been adopted by Asumu? After EP6 we know she is convinced to have given birth to a dead son. However it’s not like that, somehow Kinzo recovered it and gave it to Asumu, while Asumu’s son went to Natsuhi. Cannot understand why yet.


MARIA AND ANGE: THE BEST PAWNS

Returning to Beatrice, Maria was probably her best pawn: Maria really believed in Beatrice’s magic and it is needed to make Battler believe in magic, since Maria was the first who really believed in it. Maria really met Beatrice every year on the island and she also entered the Mariage Sorciere, convinced it was a real magic alliance. Also the coming of Ange in the Mariage Sorciere can be interpreted in that way: Maria proposed to the little Ange to enter in her alliance, but she, who understood they were all silly things, made fun of the alliance and Maria went angry. In the novel it is clear that Maria’s magic has never existed (she believed that her magic to make candies rain from the sky has worked just because she found one candy on the way home). Probably Kumasawa is the one who started with this thing of magic, "teaching" it to pieceBeatrice.
As it regards Ange on the endgame tips it is written that she has died in 1998, so probably she has never summoned the stakes in the reality, just because she believed that she had done that really has “happened”. That’s the same method she uses to summon Sakutaro in front of Maria, the power of believing.


HOW DUNNIT (EP1-4) (assuming that Kanon and Shannon are different people and not the same one; otherwise, it can be explained in the same way with certain irregularities based on that theme)


I Episode: Legend of the Golden Witch

Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Kanon and obliged Shannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling her that if she wouldn't, she will kill George (and in fact Shannon dies before George)

I twilight: Beatrice with the help of other servants kills all the people who were in mansion and were not sleeping: Krauss, Gohda, Kyrie, Rudolph and Rosa and put their corpses in the storehouse. The corpse of Shannon is in reality Kanon’s corpse disguised as Shannon as hinted from Beato and Lambda's various red texts. Only Hideyoshi and Nanjo see her/his corpse and I don’t think Hideyoshi spends too much time watching his face and body to notice it. In fact, Shannon's corpse is the most hidden one. I personally thinks that at this point is impossible that Hideyoshi lies to George, for the way it talks to him.

II twilight: Beatrice could have just hidden herself in Eva and Hideyoshi’s room and then when they entered she has come out and kill them and then she hid herself again. (Hidden place does not refer to armchair and stuff like that and no one has checked if anyone was hiding there.) Then Shannon (disguised as Kanon) cut the chain and let her go away. Or else Shannon (disguised as Kanon) enters cutting the chain, killed them and afterwards he faints to have cut the chain afterwards. Ah, I think that probably Beatrice has a gun which can shoot the demon stake, I don’t think it would be hard to create one.

IV-IX Twilight: Beatrice killed Shannon (who were thought to be Kanon) and then escaped (Beato said in red “ In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!” since Kanon was already dead a long ago and no one could kill a dead person. The theory "Kanon is not dead" is impossible, since Beatrice does not say "no one has killed Kanon", but "no one could have killed Kanon" and we know that Kumasawa could have killed him or Beatrice herself, no one could have killed him since by that time he was already dead, you cannot kill a person only when he is already dead!). Then the survivors went to Kinzo's room and Maria put a letter Beatrice told her to put (using an excuse like "the toxin is too strong!" or "my magic is not strong enough now, if you do everyone will believe and I'll resurrect, so we will reach the Golden Land!") and Natsuhi chase them away. Then she went to the parlor where she killed Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji. Afterwards she called to Kinzo's room with the intern line (Natsuhi did not want to answer and when Battler tried to answer she then said: "NO! I take the call!") and when Natsuhi took the call she told her: "Continue to say hello as if you hear nothing, I have Maria as an hostage and I can kill her when I want." and then she probably blackmailed her with something (19 years ago boy?) ordering her to come out after they'll reach the parlor; in fact Natsuhi says several times hello, then she exclaims to hear someone singing. Then she ordered Maria to say she has seen Natsuhi coming out from the room with a letter when she'll see her going out (always with the same excuses like "The toxin is too strong!" or "Everyone will believes and reach the Golden Land!") and to sing a song. Then she killed Natsuhi, Battler, Maria and Jessica reach her in the parlor and the bombs explode, marking the beginning of the metabattle between Battler and Beatrice.


II Episode: Turn of the Golden Witch

Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Kanon and obliged Shannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling her that if she wouldn't, she will kill George (and in fact Shannon dies before George)

Beatrice appears in front of Maria and Rosa and gives the letter with the key (which she used before to unlock the chapel) to Maria and the other letter to Rosa.
After the dinner, the letter, etc., probably late after midnight, Beatrice appears in front of the siblings who were discussing and brings them to the chapel, where she says she has something to show them. Probably, before going to the chapel, Beatrice tells Rosa to take Maria’s letter without opening it and without waking her up and in this moment Rudolph or Kyrie did the scribbles on Natsuhi’s door.

I twilight: After having brought them in the chapel, she shows them the gold ingot and explains them that she is an illegittimate heir and has all the gold. They acknowledge she as an heir (because she knows the location of the gold), but soon she kills them with a gun. The only one who does not get killed is Rosa and Beatrice proposes her a pact (further down I also wrote why I think this): she (Beatrice) has to kill other 7 people, but in exchange of some favours (lying about Kinzo's death status) and her silence, Beatrice will give Rosa the chance not to be killed with Maria and will give her part of the gold (100 milion yen as for everybody?). Then she said that they will meet again tomorrow at 24:00, always in the chapel and she will give her a part of the gold. She also says to Rosa “don’t try to do anything suspicious if you want me to follow the pact I’ve done with you, I have a lot of allies in the mansion” or something like that and that’s why she does not say anything and has the obsession for the “Wolves and Sheep puzzle”, but also the motivation because of she took the gun with her. The motivation I think of this are the following: (1st) in the chapel in the fantasy scene also Rosa appears, but she is the ONLY one who does not die, don’t you find it weird? and (2nd) in the end of the Episode there are Rosa and Maria who doesn’t want to go out from the parlor, but notwithstanding, we find them in the chapel exactly at 23:59 with Rosa screaming: “Beatriceeeee? Where are youuuu? Maria?!? Do you know where Beatrice is?!?”, isn’t this a clear proof that Rosa has a pact with Beato?. (3rd) We hear her lying about the existence of Kinzo, (4th) the sentence of Beatrice: “show me what will you do, dance for me, Rosa!” or something like that and also other things I don’t remember now.
However, after Beatrice killed them, Rosa opened Maria’s letter (it is already 5th Oct and this does not conflict with “Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!”), closed the chapel and Beatrice put again the wax with the ring she has.

II Twilight: There are many people who could have killed them, it’s not difficult at all to explain Jessica closed room.

IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Twilight: metaBeatrice said that Kanon was dead in this room in red and told to pieceBeatrice to oblige the servants to lie about Kanon saying he has appeared and about Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses being in thge servants' room. pieceBeatrice called Nanjo and Kumasawa out and then she killed them. In fact the only one this would work to advantage is metaBeatrice.
As it regards the letter, it is obviously put it by Maria (under Beato's order) and in fact Maria cries and screams, saying they should not quarrell, but believe (furthermore fact Maria is the only one present in both weird letter appearing in EP1 and EP2, except for Battler who is the detective and cannot be the one who put it). Then Beatrice kill Shannon, Gohda and George in Natsuhi’s room and then hid until Rosa and Battler opened the doorm checked the corpses and went out, after not having done any inspection of the room at all. The Beatrice comes out from her hiding place (an armchair probably) and goes out.

IX Twilight: Battler surrenders to the witch and believes in his existence, so he loses his role as the detective (he has not anymore an objective point of view, that’s way he could not be the detective anymore) and that’s why he sees Kinzo alive in the study and the golden butterflies. Meanwhile Rosa and Maria had gone to the chapel at 24 o’clock, because Rosa expects to receive the gold from Beatrice, but suddenly the explosion begins. That’s why the game master interpretation is that they sees golden butterflies following them, the explosions. And that’s why Rosa says “we have to escape from this island, here there is nothing but death! Let’s reach the sea and then swim, swim, swim”.


Episode III: Banquet of the Golden Witch

Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Kanon and obliged Shannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling her that if she wouldn't, she will kill George (and in fact Shannon dies before George)

I Twilight: metaBeatrice now decided to kill all of the servants. This murder could be easily explained if Nanjo has a pass-par-tout and faint to have found it in the pocket of one of the dead servants.

II Twilight: Eva is scared of Rosa knowing about the gold and she is overcome by her greed and kills both Rosa and Maria. An evidence of this is that they have no stakes. Hideyoshi decided to cover her and that’s why Kyrie, after having found the cigarette, decided to isolate him and to interrogate him.

IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-IX: Beatrice killed Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi in the mansion.
George is probably jumped from the guesthouse to see Shannon’s face and Natsuhi and Krauss saw him, so they’ve gone out and followed him. Beatrice first kills Krauss and Natsuhi and then George. Afterwards, Nanjo, as Beatrice’s accomplice, closed the door and the windows from the inside. Then Beatrice kills Nanjo and Eva kills Battler, saying she is the culprit, maybe because of her greed and her guilt-feelings. Afterwards Jessica dies because of the explosion while Eva survives hiding in the place where the gold is.
I could also explain this arc with a theory that puts Eva as the culprit (since EVA cannot says that Eva had not gone out from her room in many occasion, but maybe it is because of some kind of Beatrice's limitation, the same as Lambda's ones on Knox) but I don't personally like it...

Episode IV: Alliance of the Golden Witch

Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Shannon in place of Kanon, because of her plan with metaBeatrice, and obliged Kannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling him that if he wouldn't, she will kill Jessica. This time, as ordered to metaBeato, she will kill them all before the night and George's confession and there won't be any love scene at all, that is why she decided to change Shannon with Kanon this time.

For this Episode I will do an unique speech, without explaining all singles twilight by themselves. Firstly, this whole Episode is completely a farce, planned by metaBeato to make Battler believe in magic and there are various hint of it. Of the people in the Kyrie’s group they all says that Kinzo has appeared (clearly a lie), he has killed six people with magic summoning weird demons (more impossible, another lie) and that Shannon is with them (another lie, probably). In other words they acknowledge all the three illusions created by Beatrice. But first of all, why are they lying? The only answer I could give is “because they were obliged to”, I don’t think there could be other possibilities. And supporting my theory there are also other oddities: we find all the corpses of the people in Kuwadorian unless Kanon’s (or maybe the missing one is Shannon's? It could also be that what we think it is Shannon's corpse could eventually be Kanon's). Also, when the six people are killed (wolves and sheep puzzle, the servants and Beatrice had a gun and were in an higher number) the only ones who were able to escape were Gohda and KUMASAWA. KUMASAWA. Don’t you think is weird she had been able to escape, while Kyrie had been not? I think Beatrice let Gohda and Kumasawa escape for telling the children the “truth” of what happened in the mansion. And after a while she also imprisoned Kyrie and Krauss (wolves and sheep puzzle, Krauss and Kyrie vs Beato with the gun, Nanjo and Shannon) and obliged them to say what she has stated about Kinzo, Shannon/Kanon, magic, etc. and they don’t refuse, because I would personally don’t refuse to say “someone appeared and kill all of us with magic!” if refusing it means being killed... Even Kyrie’s last words are fake and the same goes for Jessica (who was blackmailed with Krauss’ life probably). As it regards the murders, all the homicides can be explained with Beatrice as the culprit and the servants as the accomplices.


LAND OF THE GOLDEN WITCH (EP5)

First I’d like to try to explain what “The Land of the Golden Witch” is in my opinion. IMHO the whole EP5 is “Land of the Golden Witch”: in the previous arc there was Battler as the detective and so we could have trusted both what he sees and the red truth. However, in this arc the detective was Erika, but I think (and in EP6 it has been confirmed) she has never reached the island, or better, she has reached the island as a corpse, so she is nothing more than “The illusion of the Detective”. Then in EP5 there is no one as the detective (it should be Erika but she is nothing more then a corpse) and so there is not an objective point of view and that means that the whole Episode is “Land of the Golden Witch” or, to put it better, the whole Episode is put before the interpretation of the game master, as it was in the previous game for the scenes Battler did not see directly. And this is also supported by the fact that there are some scenes with Erika that sounds like “fake”, fantasy, even though she should have an objective point of view, such as when she say “I have the authority of the detective, allow me to see the corpses!” and everyone stand back to let her see the corpses and so on, or else when a “strange force” pulls Battler away (lol). So personally I think that trying to explain Episode V is quite difficult, since we don’t have enough information, we could create a theory setting almost everyone as the culprit, as also Battler did, setting himself as the culprit. An hint that it is as I think is that in an interview Ryukishi said it wanted to put "LotGW" in EP3 but after readers' reaction to EP2 he did not. If it is like I say, it's obvious that the only Episode where he could have put LotGw is EP3, since only in that episode there is a variation: Beatrice obviously would not kill Battler until the end, but in this Episode there is Eva, who we know killed Rosa and Maria, that killed other people. What would happen if in place of Rosa, it was Battler - maybe with Kyrie - to solve the epitaph? Then Eva would have killed Battler on 2nd Twilight and then LotGW for whole EP3.
However, returning to EP5, the first twilight is obviously fake, to put Natsuhi under pressure, as also Hideyoshi, who fakes to be dead for the same motivation. The calls are obviously made by the siblings.
All reactions could be fake, as though Eva kicking Rosa and a lot of other stuff (this EP is very strange in the very first place, many things in this EP sounds "fake", such as Eva's reaction and much much more staff and in fact Lambda is the Game Master).


EP6

This Episode is completely a fantasy one, created to fit Erika. It is just an hypothethical game that is allowed to exist thanks to the absence of the detective as in EP5 (even though EP5 had his own truth and was a real game, unlike EP6). That is why unless something is countered by the red everything is possible even without a motivation (for example, why Kyrie, Rosa, Natsuhi, Maria, Eva or Kanon would have needed to go out and “““save””” Battler? xD), That is why ShKanon is an acceptable solution to Logic Error, it has never said “Kanon and Shannon are different people” in red, so it is possible in this GB for them to be the same person (that only because Erika told Battler to repeat “everyone else”. If Erika did not ask for “everyone else” and ShKanon was false, Battler then would have probably named Kanon (that was what he expected Erika to ask and he appeared to have no problem to do so, while if ShKanon was true he could not say that Kanon was in that room and that would have been a problem) and ShKanon was not an allowable solution). But that would not mean that ShKanon is true in all EPs. That is why Battler asks Beato if that “counts”, since it is “a nasty trick”. So ShKanon can be both the solution to the Logic Error while being not true in reality. However is very twisted as argument, I know. It’s just that I don’t like ShKanon, even though it is very hinted and I also think it is TOO MUCH hinted, Ryu07 would not tell the truth like that. Even though, after all we cannot but support ShKanon xD
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Old 2010-05-20, 23:59   Link #10372
Raiza Sunozaki
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Irregardless, Linkin Battler. Whether or not Battler was aware the person imposing as Shannon, she is still Beatrice. Names are irrefutably attached to the object they are related too, elsewise we couldn't trust most of the red we are given.
Example: this Beato you speak of may be recognized by Battler as Shannon, but that doesn't alter the fact that other people would call her Beatrice or Beato anyway.
So... you choose to use Shkanon? Wonderful, tell me, how do you prove that the two of them are separate people? Or are you just going to recycle previous theories? I'd like to hear something original to support it.
More so, where is the proof this "Beatrice" kills them before the game begins in any of the Episodes? Are we supposed to go along with your assumption that it happens? Don't make me laugh! Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented. If Shannon or Kanon are dead before the beginning of any game, clues must be shown to prove it.
I'll repeat myself, Linkin, so don't misunderstand me this time. In no such way, is a fantasy concept such as collaboration between meta and non-meta characters possible. We are led to believe it is so, but this is only during scenes of unreliable narration. All the mysteries that take place on Rokkenjima can be explained without magic and fantasy elements. Once again, don't confuse fantasy and mystery.
After reading through your how and who dunnit, I found several discrepancies. First of all, how can your Beatrice kill Kanon or Shannon if the other is pretending to be the other? You already said you support Shkanon. This is a heavy flaw, since both Shannon and Kanon being dead completely contradicts large chunks of red. And if one is still alive, how can you say your "Beatrice" exists on the island? Have you killed off Erika as well? If so, what do the fantasy scenes where she appears mean?
Next, you ignore several things that need to be explained, such as 07151129, you haven't even touched Episode 6 and the logic error. You are also ignoring all of 1998, which must have some importance for us who are solving Umineko. Ryuukishi's not the kind of writer to throw this much text at us without hiding something important in it. And don't forget Beato's last mystery of Episode 4. Somehow, Battler dies, being to only person left alive on the island. And it is not by suicide. Of course, everyone here is probably confident in the answer, but for dilligence, please include it in your theory as well.
You're also disregarding an important revelation of Episode 5: the faking of the first twilight. The point of this was to have people understand that the initial concept of all the first twilights was that they were to be faked. Then, along comes the culprit and their accomplices, and they kill the fakers. You fail to explain who this has any merit for the arcs previous to Episode 5.
As I've pointed out, there are large, important chunks of Umineko your theory has failed to explain or even cover. If you want to claim your theory "explains all of Umineko," then cover all of Umineko, not just the parts which suit your theory.
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Old 2010-05-21, 00:12   Link #10373
Realus
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I'll limit my disagreements to your theory, I don't want to re-read your theory and pick apart everything that I disagree with.

Although I will say, it seems like you are opposite of most people. Most almost ignore the fantasy scenes, and only rely on Battler's perspective + Red Truth. You seem to trust in the fantasy scenes a good deal. That's an interesting change of pace.
(I myself trust Battler/Red. And think all Fantasy represent something in one way or another)

Anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I Episode: Legend of the Golden Witch

I twilight: Beatrice with the help of other servants kills all the people who were in mansion and were not sleeping...

...

IV-IX Twilight: ... Then she went to the parlor where she killed Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji ...

...

II Episode: Turn of the Golden Witch

IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Twilight: metaBeatrice said that Kanon was dead in this room in red and told to humanBeatrice to oblige the servants to lie about Kanon ... Then Beatrice kill Shannon, Gohda and George in Natsuhi’s room ...
You list a way how it can be done.

But for what reason is Beato enlisting the help of the servants, and then just killing them?
That does not seem like a likely behavior for one to take. She'd need a reason somewhere, which I do not think I have read in your two (one, and the other reiteration) explanations.

------- (Below won't take quotes, too lazy to locate, then copy+paste)

I will also comment on the Beato viewings in the Question Arcs:

Episode 2:
Genji + Rosa were lying about Kinzo. They can lie about Beato.
Maria can be fooled, look at her believe of magic.
Kyrie. This is the one a little unbelievable. I don't have an explanation for this one.
My best shot for Kyrie, is that she lied in Episode 4, to Battler specifically. So she must have had a reason to lie that time. It's not that unbelievable for her to lie again.

Episode 4:
Battler saw her, sure. But wasn't it:
- Late at night (Dark, Limit Vision)
- Raining (Obscure Vision)
- Kinzo's Balcony on the 3rd Story (Distance, Limit Vision)
It's very easy to believe Battler was fooled about the identity of this "Beato" (In disguise?)

I will also say, there's no proof there isn't, or is a extra person "Beatrice" on the island.
Although, you'd have to fight against the 17 person limit.

------------

I will say, I do like the ideas of: "the identities of all UNIDENTIFIED corpses are guaranteed." (I normally look at it with the emphasis on "Corpses")
Also: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands! (Since the "next day" can come pretty quickly after the fantasy scene in the chapel. )

But I highly disagree on: "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!"
I do not believe this is worded in any way to say 'during the 5th twilight, Kanon was not killed by a human or dead person'. There just doesn't seem to be any time limit constraint on the red.
I'd like to think this either means the killer isn't on the island (If you go for the killed before the game started theory), or he was killed by another method.
[Edit] Oh right, and the solution that he didn't die at that time. [/Edit]

------------

Oh, and I really just see the 'Shannon is killed pre-fourth game, Kanon is actually alive.' theory, as just a way to fit in the red claiming he's the 9th victim.

If you have to add a tiny appendage to make the rest of your theory fit, I don't think your on the right track.
(Which, while some points sound valid, I don't think it's the correct theory by a long shot. IMO of course)

... Actually, since I'm bringing up Shkannon topics, for what reason at all; does Beatrice want to give the illusion of Shannon + Kanon?
Even more, why does she want to make this illusion, when Shannon + Kanon both exist?
Even more, why does she kill Kanon (Or in one case Shannon), just to make the other disguise themselves as the other during the game?

It seems rather pointless for her to make this Shkannon illusion, unless I missed something in your theory.

===========

Just my 2cents.

Last edited by Realus; 2010-05-21 at 00:51.
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Old 2010-05-21, 00:13   Link #10374
Raiza Sunozaki
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In response to your latest mega-post, which I've only had the chance to read "Premises" of.
So, you're still going under the idea that interaction between meta and non-meta exists? Then I'm still calling utter bullshit.
Using non-detective characters to prove the existence of Beato is useless. Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. Unless we have it in red that Beato exists on the game board, or that Battler, in a reliable narration, says he saw her, you can't use it.
And in Episode 4, Battler did not see her. It was dark out and raining, and he's supposed to see someone three stories up from him? There's no way this is a valid reliable narration.
And all your evidence about Shkanon is merely recycled theories, ones that have been dealt with by anti-Shkanonists in the past. If you're going to and try prove Shkanon exists, try coming up with something original.
I'll read the entire thing (and disprove most of it) later, but right now it's one on the morning and I'm tired.
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Old 2010-05-21, 00:33   Link #10375
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Irregardless, Linkin Battler. Whether or not Battler was aware the person imposing as Shannon, she is still Beatrice. Names are irrefutably attached to the object they are related too, elsewise we couldn't trust most of the red we are given.
Example: this Beato you speak of may be recognized by Battler as Shannon, but that doesn't alter the fact that other people would call her Beatrice or Beato anyway. (1)
So... you choose to use Shkanon? Wonderful, tell me, how do you prove that the two of them are separate people? Or are you just going to recycle previous theories? I'd like to hear something original to support it. (2)
More so, where is the proof this "Beatrice" kills them before the game begins in any of the Episodes? Are we supposed to go along with your assumption that it happens? Don't make me laugh! Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented. If Shannon or Kanon are dead before the beginning of any game, clues must be shown to prove it. (3)
I'll repeat myself, Linkin, so don't misunderstand me this time. In no such way, is a fantasy concept such as collaboration between meta and non-meta characters possible. We are led to believe it is so, but this is only during scenes of unreliable narration. All the mysteries that take place on Rokkenjima can be explained without magic and fantasy elements. Once again, don't confuse fantasy and mystery. (4)
After reading through your how and who dunnit, I found several discrepancies. First of all, how can your Beatrice kill Kanon or Shannon if the other is pretending to be the other? You already said you support Shkanon. This is a heavy flaw, since both Shannon and Kanon being dead completely contradicts large chunks of red. And if one is still alive, how can you say your "Beatrice" exists on the island? Have you killed off Erika as well? If so, what do the fantasy scenes where she appears mean? (5)
Next, you ignore several things that need to be explained, such as 07151129, you haven't even touched Episode 6 and the logic error. You are also ignoring all of 1998, which must have some importance for us who are solving Umineko. Ryuukishi's not the kind of writer to throw this much text at us without hiding something important in it. And don't forget Beato's last mystery of Episode 4. Somehow, Battler dies, being to only person left alive on the island. And it is not by suicide. Of course, everyone here is probably confident in the answer, but for dilligence, please include it in your theory as well. (6)
You're also disregarding an important revelation of Episode 5: the faking of the first twilight. The point of this was to have people understand that the initial concept of all the first twilights was that they were to be faked. Then, along comes the culprit and their accomplices, and they kill the fakers. You fail to explain who this has any merit for the arcs previous to Episode 5. (7)
As I've pointed out, there are large, important chunks of Umineko your theory has failed to explain or even cover. If you want to claim your theory "explains all of Umineko," then cover all of Umineko, not just the parts which suit your theory.
First of all, I haven't read EP6 so I don't know nothing about this logic error. Then...
(1) Six years ago for me (Battler), no person called Beatrice existed.
That means that FOR BATTLER, no Beatrice existed, since he didn't know of the exchange between Shannon and Beatrice. In Battler's eyes no person called Beatrice existed, even though she was in front of his eyes, because he thaught she was Shannon.
(2) Shannon and Kanon are different people. Jessica would know about it if that wasn't true and remember that in EP3 they found both Shannon's corpse in the parlor (not sure about the location, but it's not this the important thing) and Kanon's corpse in the chapel.
(3) There are clues that can lead to the ShKanon theories and the most important is: In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! And even though, he dies! Why then? Simple, because he was already before the siblings arrived in the island and the one in the boiler room actually was Shannon's corpse! If you have another solution then tell me. But also another things: I'll use that red In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! as a clue of the ShKanon theory. Then, assuming that ShKanon theory is true, one of them has to die before the arriving of the siblings on the island or else the number would overcome 17. Thanks to this red Kanon was killed in this room we know that in the EP2 it is Kanon that has been killed before the game start, since after that red Shannon appears, while thanks to this red "Kanon is dead. / Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. / In short, he was the 9th victim." we know that in the EP4 it was Shannon that has been killed before the siblings arrive in the island.
But we also know The setup was not different for the fourth game alone...! So we have to assume one of those two has been killed between the game start (00:00, October 4th) and the arrive of the siblings.
(4) Who has ever said that? All the murders can be explained without using magic, not the whole Umineko game, what you say is completely impossible: how do you explain the metaworld? It is just a pretense to let the story works? I don't think Ryu07 does things just "to let the story works"
(5) You did not understand: Beatrice kills one of them and then blackmail the remaining one, obliging him/her to create the illusion of both existing on the island. As it regards Erika, I already said what i think in "Land of the golden Witch", she arrived in the island, but dead.
(6) I explained the 07151129 some posts before: "As it regards the number, very likely, it was an hint to Battler to tell him that the murderer and the one who sent the letter to Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son were the same person, since in this Episode there was one survivor and there was the chance that Battler could have entered in contact with a character of the future (thing that actually happens). I'm sorry, but not having read EP6 I can't tell you any opinion As it regards Ange's future, I explained the bond between it.
(7) Have you read my part talking about "Land of the Golden Witch"? However, how do you think that EP1 First Twilight could be fake?!? With also Krauss between them and Battler acknoledging Krauss's half face missing? Come on, tell me. And the same goes for EP2 First Twilight.
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Old 2010-05-21, 00:41   Link #10376
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
(4) Who has ever said that? All the murders can be explained without using magic, not the whole Umineko game, what you say is completely impossible.

Actually, the Author Theory can explain the entire game without magic. 8)

But anyways, Linkin, how do you propose that Shannon and Kanon are stuck in two separate rooms and named with the red if in every game one of them has to be dead? This is what happened in EP6.
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Old 2010-05-21, 00:45   Link #10377
Judoh
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First of all nowhere is it "confirmed" That Erika is just a corpse that arrives on the island. This is a THEORY based on the tips that some people after the Rokkenjima accident like to BELEIVE that she came there. The reason this theory is used is because people claim that if she dies when she arrives on the island that she can be added as an eighteenth person and still leave the count at seventeen people. For your theory to work you have to kill off two characters. Erika and somebody else.

Second your solution to Kanon's "death" in the boiler room is nothing, but ridiculous. "Oh it's Shannon who was killed there so that red doesn't matter". Can you read english? The red doesn't work like that. Are you saying Kanon's corpse doesn't exist? Because that is the only alternative I can think of. Your telling me to just use suspension of disbelief so that not only Jessica, but Battler mistakes Kanon's corpse for somebody else. I refuse that request on the grounds the way you've presented it has been done so idiotically.

This event in the boiler room would actually be evidence that Shkanon isn't true. Because if it's impossible that Kanon died there than he would obviously be faking his death DUH!! Dying before that is not a solution because the red says it impossible that a human killed him.

Third your are missing huge chunks of red and loads of evidence in your theory. I encourage you to reread the game and the Umineko wiki because clearly you don't know how context works. 07151129 is one of the evidences you glossed over. There is also cigarette butt, the boat ticket, the house keys, and the 100 yen coin in Kyrie's pocket (one of the few cases of physical evidence we have besides Maria's jaw). That you haven't explained

Fourth seriously stop reposting your theory and using that frikkin large font. just edit what you have in keep it in your sig. Your being obnoxious

Fifth in episode 2 Kanon was inside the chapel WITH BATTLER before he left with Jessica. Are you saying that Kanon was Shannon the whole time? In that case why does Rosa defend Shannon along with Genji? She met Shannon in Kinzo's room if she's in on this she should know that Shannon is Kanon.

oh and if your going to argue a disguise. Knox's 8th

I'll repost what I said yesterday regarding this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
To explain numerous scenes for Shkanon with Battler around you need a disguise. There are no hints that anyone is suspicious that Shannon disguises as Kanon. There are however hints that almost everyone is suspicious of a Beatrice disguise with numerous statements of who could be involved. Shkanon does not have this kind of liberty. I have yet to see one hint from anyone of a Shannon or Kanon disguise other than "they were trained at the Fukuin house", which there are no hints for, and the scene in episode 2. Not one Shkanon theorist has provided any hints from 1986 that hints at this sort of disguise when this is obviously the time the disguise would be used. Where are the hints?
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Old 2010-05-21, 01:00   Link #10378
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, the Author Theory can explain the entire game without magic. 8)

But anyways, Linkin, how do you propose that Shannon and Kanon are stuck in two separate rooms and named with the red if in every game one of them has to be dead? This is what happened in EP6.
I just have read all the red concerning that piece and I personally have a theory that would both fit together with ShKanon considering that one of them is dead and a humanBeatrice on the island...! Even though it is a bit twisted xD
I don't know what happened in EP6, but reading the red I immediately noticed:

The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!
The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.
Battler and Kanon are different people.


That means tha Kanon is without any doubt alive... and also that "Shannon" is alive. But Battler in EP5 has learned the truth about Beato. And probably understood the fact of Beato calling herself Shannon six years before. Beatrice has been "Shannon" for a little time some years ago, so it would not be wrong to refer to Beato as "Shannon". By this we can assume that probably even Beato was hiding in the neighboring room. (People refers to living humans)
I don't know if this has any sense but I just said the first idea I had in mind (I myself do not believe in what I said xD) But is difficult theorizing without even having read a game ;_;
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Old 2010-05-21, 01:01   Link #10379
Linkin Battler
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Sorry, now I don't have time to read your answers since I have to go to school @_@ I'll reply after coming back home! See you later!
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:03   Link #10380
J the Drafter
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Sorry to throw in a new topic so suddenly, but I have the suspicion that the fourth game is Beatrice's attempt to show the why, and/or possibly the who, behind the initial first twilight plot, though her attempt is hampered by the haze of illusion shrouding the gameboard. The usage of Kinzo as the mastermind just has the feel, looking back on it, of some big revelation. I don't know who can use this thought or how helpful it can be, but here it is.
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