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Old 2010-05-27, 18:51   Link #1941
bigdeath
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So the meaning of the original eva is people don't overcome their failings and are doomed?

Besides, ironcily in eva 2.0 the characters still fail:

Spoiler for Eva 2.0:


Sometimes manning up is not enough. Hence I think the meaning of the title "You Can (Not) Advance"

One would think that you can advance in life by overcoming your failings and pushing through life's challenges.

Yet fate has a way of constantly (or trying to at least) knocking you back down.
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Old 2010-05-27, 18:59   Link #1942
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Frankly, I think people should let the other two movies come out and watch them before they finally condemn them.
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Old 2010-05-27, 19:20   Link #1943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Again, not everyone finds Shinji whiny. Personally, I was able to empathize with his character perfectly and found him to be one of the most interesting anime characters of all time. If he is able to overcome his problems, that disappears.
Given that Anno IS directing the movies, I guess it boils down to what you expect from EVA. The creator HAS come back to the franchise with a new perspective in mind, but it no longer matches what the old die-hards expect anymore. Tsk. No wonder I keep on seeing the comparison to Fallout's hilariously close-minded 'fans'.

The question is, will you cling to those old expectations brought upon by the original anime, or look at things with an open mind?

I prefer the latter, but maybe it's due to the fact that, as I grew up and matured emotionally, I'm not 'hard-core' anymore.
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Old 2010-05-27, 19:37   Link #1944
Myssa Rei
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Mind, I'm taking all this in good fun, but it is surprising how divergent my views became on Evangelion-series derivatives are compared to my so-called contemporaries. Did everyone else become increasingly bitter and insular in the past fifteen years?

Heck, I experienced actual clinical depression (the type you're supposed to take medication for), but I'm liking the new movies. Very much.
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Old 2010-05-27, 19:42   Link #1945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Mind, I'm taking all this in good fun, but it is surprising how divergent my views became on Evangelion-series derivatives are compared to my so-called contemporaries. Did everyone else become increasingly bitter and insular in the past fifteen years?

Heck, I experienced actual clinical depression (the type you're supposed to take medication for), but I'm liking the new movies. Very much.
Eh, you can't please everyone. I always though eva was good but it had its flaws. I am enjoying Eva rebuild quite a lot more.
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Old 2010-05-27, 20:00   Link #1946
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I haven't seen 2.0, so don't feel the need to riot... yet I'm one of the more casual fans of the series. But thoughts on alleged changes:

Now, I'm one of those people that don't hate series Shinji. On the grand scale of whiny characters, he's not even up there really; I think it's overblown really.

A lot of people remember Eva as an emo fest/acid trip, but a good chunk of it was one of the best "monster of the week" shows too. So not everyone was an emotional wreck all the time.

The entire point of the show is that you can't put a random kid and expect him to win just because he is teh main character. That kind of shit tends to screw with one's mind badly. And if you think about it, he's just the victim of some rather selfish individuals who have their own shady plans to force humanity along with their agenda.

You could call Shinji selfish or whatever and I could partially agree, but he is no better or no worse than your average main that fights for some generic reason of good. Unlikable Character does not equal Bad character.

And actually I thought he was getting along pretty well, til the plot decided to take a turn for the worst (post-zeruel). You could argue a lot of the emotion was contrived at the end but that's an issue of the plot.

Oh and btw, I have no problem with Shinji during 1.0, since this particular Misato is more supportive at him. Stuff like that makes sense.
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Old 2010-05-28, 00:05   Link #1947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post
P.S.

As far as I know, "hardcore" eva fans have always dreamed of what it would be like if Shinji for once in his pathetic life maned up. Eva 2.0 answers that ago old question and boy does it deliver.
Yes this, I mentioned before how i longed for shinji manning up, if you want a whiny, emotionally unstable shinji (not that i hate that version of shinji) watch the tv series and the end of eva, anno making a re-build so expect things to change here and there.

I for one wanted to see shinji manning up ever since i read re-take doujinshi, and thank god i finally able to see him somewhat do so in the second movie.

@reckoner: i somehow can relate to your opinion, but give this movie a shot first, the way they make shinji more reliable is not so artificially done, in a sense you will feel glad shinji actually make a better action in this movie, not just sudden "look at me i am gar" or something like that.

Now... about that red eye... , seeing shinji, rei (cmiiw, in the end of eva she has red pupil right?) and kaworu having red eye meaning they are somewhat half angels?
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Old 2010-05-28, 00:27   Link #1948
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I finally saw it tonight. I am not happy, just simply not happy. Rei's character was destroyed. Asuka's character was deformed, Mari really was pointless, and Shinji was fine until the concluding moments of the Zeruel fight, but then acted very uncharacteristically. Anno dumped all his suddenness apparently. Never before have the characters shared their thoughts and feelings with the other characters and the audience as much as in this movie.

Unnecessary amounts of fan service detected in this movie.

If I was rating the movie as an unbiased observer, I'd give it a 8.5. Unfortunately, the rating plummets into the 6.5-7.0 range because Evangelion has a lot to live up to.

I will write a more detailed review later.
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Old 2010-05-28, 01:02   Link #1949
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Ahahaha, now this I have to read. I just want to see just how far from being a 'hard core' EVA fan I've fallen in the past decade and a half, through reading a 'hard-core' fan's reactions.
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Old 2010-05-28, 01:27   Link #1950
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After watching 2.22, I'm high on Eva again. I'm a casual fan of the series, but seeing the characters in a new way is refreshing. You see a character give at least some motivation to Shinji and it adds up towards the end. So far I like this side of Evangelion. 5/5
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Old 2010-05-28, 03:01   Link #1951
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My feelings towards Rebuild have ranged everywhere from indifference to excitement to nerd-rage, sometimes in combination. I am left very confused by Anno's intentions with this film and where he was planning to go in the first place.

If he wanted to remake Evangelion, as a treat to old fans and a gateway for new fans, he is doing a piss poor job. If he is just trying to completely reimagine the series, I don't understand why he needs to go back to milk the Evangelion franchise all over again, unless his sole intention is to line his pockets with cash.

Anyhow,tTo carefully construct my review of this movie, I am going to split it into three different sections: characters, plot, and misc.

CHARACTERS

Oh dear, I don't even know where to start... I guess all I can do is talk about each character individually.

Asuka Shikinami (Langley Soryu)

OK. First of all. I don't understand the name change. Asuka Langley Soryu to Asuka Shikinami? Why? I guess I can let this slide...??? She's supposed to be German, but I didn't even get that impression from her in this movie. Again, this is something I can let slide. I am only mentioning it because these facts seem to be a prelude to what would be one of the character destructions of Evangelion 2.0.

What's changed about Asuka you may ask? All you need to do is look at how she interacts with various characters in this movie.
  • She show's a willingness to be more honest and open up to characters, which is uncharacteristic of her if I am supposed to look at her as the same character from NGE. In particular, a scene that made me cringe was her putting on the plug suit as she was talking to Misato just before getting in Unit 0-3. This development in her character was not only rushed, but also was hard to grasp, since we both don't know what her problems are at all so far, nor do we see what truly led to this personal realization.
    .
  • The suddenness of her apparent affection for Shinji is completely spoon fed to the audience through very Tsundere stereotypes. An example is of Misato making fun of her for cooking apparently for Shinji (wtf? When would she ever do something like that?). It is also apparent when she practically blurts out that she sought the comfort of Shinji when she lies down on his bed. This takes away from what truly was a great/interesting scene in the TV series. In the original, we were left wondering what exactly Asuka was thinking that night and were allowed to actually "think."
    .
  • The elevator scene. Oh my god. Why copy the scene from the TV series, if it makes no sense anymore? I'm going to quote something here because I feel this poster in another forum described perfectly what I mean by this.

    Quote:
    Asuka Soryu never liked dolls, she hated them, Shikinami has one and uses it to talk with herself because her mom gave it to her; gone is the "I think this doll is my daughter" trauma; worst yet, all the things that meant something for the redhead, her Plugsuit and A-10, her Mother and Eva, were taken away, and not an explanation was given.

    Shikinami has been turned to a stereotypical weak, frail girl, so forgive me if I can only shake my head in disappointment at the people who are enamored of the new version, like the mice running behind the pied paper of Hamlin.
    In the original series there was a lot of tension between Asuka and Rei because Rei represented much of what happens to be Asuka's personal struggle. She didn't want to be seen as a doll. She wanted people to recognize her existence. She used the Eva's to validate her own existence. Rei acted like a human doll, which goes back to Asuka's struggles with her mother. Again, without even hinting or explaining any of her troubles with her mother, this scene doesn't make any sense.

    In the end, this scene seemed to be degraded into a "I'm jealous of the first child for trying to take the guy I like" scene that is oh so common in many generic harem shows. This is not Evangelion. This is disgusting.

I could seemingly rant on endlessly about Asuka being changed. If they didn't want her to be the same character, don't call her Asuka and don't draw a character that looks like Asuka. Make a new character. Better yet, if they aren't going to truly remake Evangelion for the fans of old, don't call it Evangelion and make it something else.

Rei Ayanami

Another character destruction, almost as bad as Asuka's.

Firstly, emotional Rei. What? Wait. Rei did happen to start displaying some sorts of emotions towards the end of the original series. But this is going tooooooooooooooo far. A dinner party? Is this supposed to be some sort of joke? And she also seems so talkative. She wants to cook for Shinji? What? I feel confused. And why is she looking so surprised so often? And what is up with all the smiling?

Rei certainly wasn't the first character of such nature to appear in the anime world, but the silent mysterious girl without emotions was popularized by Evangelion I feel. Moreover, part of what makes her so much better though than all those half ass clones of her (Yuki Nagato from Haruhi being the only one that can seemingly stand up on her own) is how creepy she could be at times throughout the series. I felt she was way too human in this movie, and it really took away from the greatness of her character. I didn't feel like I was watching Rei, just like I didn't feel like I was watching Asuka.

Also, for some reason they are trying to add a lot more Shinji x Rei dynamic in this movie that didn't seem to truly exist in the original Evangelion. Now of course I happen to be a Shinji x Asuka shipper at heart, but I won't let that bias get me here... However, I felt it was exaggerated to a point of ridiculousness.

Anyhow, the reasons why I think her changes were negative I think are clear.

Shinji Ikari

SHINJI-LAGANNNNNNNNNNN. OK, until the final scene with Zeruel I didn't think these complaints were merited about Shinji suddenly turning into Simon from TTGL. The limit of Shinji's desperateness in this fight should have been the powerful scene from the original series where he is desperately begging his Evangelion to move. But then they into this whole scene where Shinji is like inside Zeruel trying to pull out Rei and grunting for like 3 minutes as if he became some sort of shounen character. That is not the Shinji I remember?

OK. It's honestly not the biggest deal in the world. It was what came afterwards that truly killed me. The hug. He hugged Rei, embraced her. In the entire series of Evangelion, Shinji NEVER ONCE embraced another human being like that. He never ONCE had close physical contact with anyone by his own will. He is supposed to be traumatized by physical contact and emotional attachment. Honestly. What the heck? I cannot accept that Shinji would ever do something like this. This not only goes against Shinji's character, but everything of the original TV series.

This was the only standout scene that I truly had a beef with in Rebuild regarding Shinji as a character, but it was a pretty major one...

Gendo Ikari

Only complaint I had was that they made him seem less evil in this than the original, but that really boils down to perception. I actually felt there was some improvements in his character in the movie. They are showing more clearly his obsession with Yui early on.

The College Trio: Misato, Kaji, Ritsuko.

All three characters seemingly suffered from lack of development due to time constraints. None suffered more than our poor Ritsuko. I felt like her presence was nonexistent in the movie.

Kaji's role in the story seems to be in particular strange. I just felt the way he hanged around many of the characters except Misato and Ritsuko, to be strange. It was as if he was close to them even though he seemingly did not interact at all with any of them beforehand.

The biggest shame may be Misato though. Needless to say, we delved very little into what her character is all about.

However, I don't know what to say about this, because it really goes into a more overall complaint about the movies in general, which I will describe later, that mostly has to do with time constraints.

Mari

Mary Sue. End of story really. I will add though that every time she was on the screen and talking, she really felt like an outsider to the Evangelion universe and did not seem to fit in. It was as if she was displaced from her own character.

Other Characters

Again, do to time constraints many of the other characters were nonexistent. All the staff on the bridge control had absolutely no personality whatsoever compared to their TV series counterparts. There is nothing they can do about this.

----------------------------------------------------

Alright because I am tired I will post the rest of my rantings later. But I'll allow you guys to chew on this for the time being.
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Old 2010-05-28, 03:12   Link #1952
bigdeath
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I've been thinking, in show shinji was hopeless until the very end when he decided not to give up on the world (reality). In the rebuild:

Spoiler for Eva 2.0:


This question has me very excited about Eva, in a way the original story endless depression fail to inspire in me.

@Reckoner:

All I can say has been best said by tv tropes:

Quote:
In 1995, Hideaki Anno—fresh out of rehabilitation caused by problems during the production of Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water—created what was originally planned to be a mecha otaku's ultimate dream; however, following his increasing disappointment in and hatred for the otaku community, issues in his personal life, and Gainax's financial troubles, Anno transformed the show into the infamously brutal deconstruction of the Super Robot genre (and quite a few common anime tropes) that is Neon Genesis Evangelion.
So Anno is simply changing the Eva characters into a more heroic versions of themselves. This mean they are more mentally stable and have the power to overcome the failings. This is still Eva though so it will still be exceedingly difficult for them but at least they have hope which was the key that was missing in the show.

In other words, the characters in rebuild can no longer be judged by how they acted in the original show since the way they think has been altered. Rebuild seems to truely be a case study of what would happen if the original shows characters where not so broken and hopeless.


Quote:
Asuka Soryu never liked dolls, she hated them, Shikinami has one and uses it to talk with herself because her mom gave it to her
Hence the reason for the name change. Shikinami is a very different girl from Soryu and all it took was for her to have a seemingly loving mother. Simple acts like being loved and having hope can completely change a person and for Asuka the change is big enough for her name to be altered as well to symbolize this change.

As for Asuka being a weak girl? How? She smashes an angel in secs (one hell of an entrance and quite heroic - hint at a theme of the rebuild) and can recognize her own emotions unlike her fellow pilots who can't realize they like each other.

Quote:
"I'm jealous of the first child for trying to take the guy I like"
*cough

In case you didn't notice, Asuka liked Shinji in the tv show as well and didn't like Rei in part for being a doll but also for being a potential rival. Its just bluntly stated in the rebuild.

Quote:
If they didn't want her to be the same character, don't call her Asuka and don't draw a character that looks like Asuka. Make a new character. Better yet, if they aren't going to truly remake Evangelion for the fans of old, don't call it Evangelion and make it something else.
Your missing the point. They want to draw a comparison between Soryu who is broken in many way to Shikinami who is an Asuka who is much more mentally balanced, happy, hope, etc. The point is to contrast how these two versions of the same character act and react to events.

Quote:
Mari

Mary Sue
Do you know what a Mary Sue is? How can she be a mary sue when she is shown to be far from perfect? Anyway, she looks to play a bigger role in the latter movies since this was just her introduction.
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Old 2010-05-28, 03:43   Link #1953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Again, without even hinting or explaining any of her troubles with her mother, this scene doesn't make any sense.
Actually, it makes perfect sense within the context of the movie itself. Romantic jealousy aside, the trigger of her raging on Rei was the fact that her Unit-02, which was in prime condition at the time, was sealed away, instead of the badly damaged and generally inferior prototype, Unit-00.

Since she regards piloting Eva as a highly competitive, working environment type of an affair, she saw this (otherwise strategically unsound) decision as a blatant act of favoritism towards Rei and Unit-00 on commands part (which is true, but not for the reasons Asuka would think). The romantic stuff only surfaces after this.

And honestly, if you don't like the movie that's fine, but dissing it for "making no sense" because it doesn't follow the original to the letter shows that you didn't want to view Rebuild as an alternate spin on the story from the get go.

And honestly, from the earliest announcements, Rebuild promised a tale that unfolds differently with an all new conclusion. If the characters are the focal points of the story, then leaving them unchanged wouldn't allow for that, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post
Hence the reason for the name change. Shikinami is a very different girl from Soryu and all it took was for her to have a seemingly loving mother.
We can't say for sure, but some sort of family breakup or something like that was definitely hinted at with Asuka's character: during the phone talk with Misato she states that she has been alone for most of her life and that pretending to be happy or being subjected to others happiness are emotionally draining for her.

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Old 2010-05-28, 04:04   Link #1954
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well, yeah. Poor choice of words. I meant at least it seems she got some love from her mother.

Lol, you caught that while I was rereading my post to make sure everything made sense.


Do my post make sense to people or am I crazy? Just wondering if anyone else had similar thoughts after watching 2.0.
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:11   Link #1955
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I'm with Reckoner about the original characters.
I would add Rei throwing "Arigatou" at everyone by the end of the move. Good Rei..now Gendo is the only one you haven't thanked.
Mari saying "Nya~♥" while piloting Eva - big nono.
Asuka is completely different - nothing from the old Asuka here...her mother,unrequited love with Kaji, obsession to be an adult fast - maybe exactly that's why her name is different. I think she got the biggest hit to her original personality.
Shinji was the same up until that ridiculous "Giev back Rei" red eye scene and the hug consoling Rei...when it's actually Shinji that always needed to be hugged and consoled and told he is loved and needed by someone.

Anyway Anno why did you have to take those crazy repulsive color palettes into Eva >_< Was wondering what anime i was watching at the end of the movie. o.0
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:22   Link #1956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
*snips*
Bravo, you've just demonstrated nerd-rage on the scale of some fandoms. That's quite a feat. Not a dock against you, understand, but I can't help but imagine a boiling kettle.

Relax, breath in a bit, and take off the lenses of nostalgia (and fanboyism).

I need to ask, what is it so hard to understand about the term 'reimagining'? I'm sure you're familiar, being American, with both iterations of Battlestar Galactica? The case is similar, where an old or familiar franchise or setting is revisited with a new perspective, which is what the Rebuild movies are: the EVA mythos with a relatively more upbeat outlook. Or maybe just a dash of the Domino Effect thrown in...

First off Asuka. The surname change is a stylistic choice -- while the naval ship theme was already in place in the TV series, this made it much more plain to see by a layman, who might not have seen the series (not everyone watches anime, remember), but MIGHT have been passingly familiar with WW2-era destroyers. A class of ships that, incidentally, Ayanami was part of.

As for the 'simplified' characterization, well ask yourself, as someone familiar with the TV series, is there any possible way to squeeze what amounted to 7 episodes worth of character building in the second movie, without sacrificing everything else? We know she was a queen bitch in the series, because of all the scenes spread out through the second half of the anime that showed us that she was, indeed, a little girl with MAJOR issues. That's just not possible in a movie format though, so we have what you saw, queen bitch lite. Which, I think, made her movie incarnation more likeable for the casual viewer (not us) than the angry ball of angst we knew.

The same could be said of Rei. Most of Rei's mystery in the original series was built up slowly over the course of twenty-two or so episodes. Here, the studio is working with little over than two hours worth of time. Characterization HAD to be brought up to speed, but I think there's more than a little Domino Effect from the previous movie at work here as well (and likely going to snowball into the next movie, judging by the preview).

(Yes, TV Sequel conspiracy theories aside, I do think it's helpful to think of the Rebuild movies as its own kind of alternate timeline, where destiny nudged a bit in one direction instead of another.)

And Shinji? In the context of the TV series the confidence this Shinji displayed would make no sense. In the context of the TV series. However, in the cotext of the Rebuild movies, it makes a lot of sense (a lot of little nudges add up eventually), including his anger at the end.

How about Mari? Just how in Haruhi's name is she a Mary Sue? Are you even familiar with how a Mary Sue is defined? It's not just a character inserted into an established timeline, no sir, there also has to be a dash of idealized wish-fulfillment involved that normally results in a 'perfect' and 'flawless' character... Which Mari isn't. Shinji did not fall in love with her at first sight, nor did she excel at piloting; have you conveniently ignored the fact that she's never had a 'clean' success in any of her outings? EVA-05 was lost, and for all intents and purposes Unit-02 was totaled.

What Mari is, I think you want to say, is undefined as a character. Which is not surprising, as she's just been introduced in the movie. There's still two more movies for her motivations (and instabilities) to be revealed. Compare Mari to, say, Kirishima Mana, who actually HAD traits that fit with the typical Mary Sue (including having Shinji nearly fall in love with her).
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:36   Link #1957
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I find it amusing that the reason people hate or love 2.0 is the exact same reason, the change in the characters.

Funny Myssa Rei mention of Battlestar Galactica, another show whos recent remake I find by far superior to the original.
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:47   Link #1958
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bigdeath: Well, I do watch everything, or at least a good chunk of what's shown every season. Part of it is due to me being so open-minded about the anime I watch -- along with EVA for example, I count KAIBA and Koihime Musou as favorites alongside Legend of Galactic Heroes. I'm not picky about what I watch though, and I'm not really bothered about the flaws of a series when I'm enjoying myself watching it (I've never given ANY series in recent memory a grade more than or less than 7).

And I enjoyed Rebuild 2.22 immensely, so it deserves a 7 too.
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:50   Link #1959
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I'm with Reckoner about the original characters.
I would add Rei throwing "Arigatou" at everyone by the end of the move. Good Rei..now Gendo is the only one you haven't thanked.
Mari saying "Nya~♥" while piloting Eva - big nono.
Asuka is completely different - nothing from the old Asuka here...her mother,unrequited love with Kaji, obsession to be an adult fast - maybe exactly that's why her name is different. I think she got the biggest hit to her original personality.
Shinji was the same up until that ridiculous "Giev back Rei" red eye scene and the hug consoling Rei...when it's actually Shinji that always needed to be hugged and consoled and told he is loved and needed by someone.

Anyway Anno why did you have to take those crazy repulsive color palettes into Eva >_< Was wondering what anime i was watching at the end of the movie. o.0
Asuka is a complete shell of her former self. Not only was her screen time destroyed... but they went ahead and did rapid-fire "Anata baka"s...

Asuka is pretty much the only real tragedy here... all the other changes I can live with.
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Old 2010-05-28, 05:54   Link #1960
Dragonkid11
A random-man
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Hello,I am someone who watching Evangelion months ago...

And I have to write my comment here...

I think that Mari was with some organisation that...erm...know what Seele doing and they were trying to stop them...

Just a theorie
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