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Old 2010-05-28, 22:25   Link #41
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
I think clothing should be respectable -- though it can be used as expressive or intended purposes -- I mostly find short skirts rather pointless.

I also think people should, regardless of age -- be respectful to themselves.
So you find short skirts pointless - that's fine. However, if someone told me I was dressing like a whore and that I wasn't being respectful towards myself because of my choice of clothing, I'd raise an eyeborw at them at best. If I like short skirts, that's my business and no one else's. I don't think it's "whorish", and neither do I understand why someone would think that. I'm not asking anyone to come over and exchange money for sex. Even if I was, that would be my choice, and I think I can decide for myself what I find humiliating and what I deem empowering.

Quote:
It's rather nitpicky really. What constitutes as whorish is really up to the individual. For me it's a combination of excessive make-up, gaudy and revealing clothing... and the immodest attitude. Now it is perspective so do bear with me; but don't feel obligated to - that constitutes as whorish because it is usually the encompassed stereotypes of whores and prostitutes.
Why should stereotypes decide what I can wear and what not?

Quote:
Feel entirely free to oppose what I think.
Ah, as you wish!

Quote:
I simply feel on this kind of thing several things are responsible. The media, the culture, the parents. So on and the such.
At the same time, our society is telling women that if they wear certain things or behave in a certain way, it's their own fault if someone takes that as an invitation. And that, in my opinion, is much more appalling.
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Old 2010-05-28, 22:42   Link #42
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

It's degrading and an assertion of male chauvinism when I decide to wear a short skirt and stockings? Or a minidress? Or maybe some really tight jeans that show off my butt and a top that makes my boobs look huge (because damn... they definitely need all the help they can get)?

Of my own volition?

And I don't even like men?

I actually like looking and dressing attractively (sometimes "cute," sometimes "sexy"). It makes me feel good; I do not do it because I give a shit about anything any man thinks.
Oh please, purposeful misinterpretation. If the dress choice wasn't of their own voilition it is chauvinism, if it's your own choice thats your own choice, if wearing a miniskirt and fishnet stockings is empowering for you do what you want. but for anyone else to decide for you what is attractive becomes a whole different story. I was assuming that the costume design was not the little girls choosing as it doesn't look like it's a stock costume hence why my assumption of outside interference was not founded. Don't get me wrong I'm not a white knight, i'm all for personal responsibility, as long as the clothing you wear is what makes you comfortable, and you want to wear it, go right for it.

of course if you dress like a whore, and get called whore, don't get angry, you can't have it both ways.
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Old 2010-05-28, 23:00   Link #43
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
This.

Feminists who want to tell me what to wear or claim that a woman choosing to be submissive in a bdsm scene is degrading herself always make me frown, because my definition of feminism is very different from theirs. If I feel like dressing up, then I'll do exactly that, and if I happen to pick a mini-skirt, that is not an invitation for men to treat me with anything less than respect.
agree'd, just don't act like a whore

personaly i like some sexy clothing. but if she acts like a whore(except for me only or RPing ) i don't like it
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Old 2010-05-29, 02:26   Link #44
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Erm when did I ever say I knew what they were thinking I said they probably thought.... and it is true that dances like that those booty shaking dances are sexual in nature. Please read my posts properly next time so I dont have to explain myself.
I read your posts "properly". however I'd say there was enough ambiguity in word choice to arrive at more than one meaning.

Example:
Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that the dances like that are mostly used to express sexuality or get appease to the average straight man's libido
You made an assertion of opinion as fact, hence my response. Dance is always viewed through the lens of cultural baggage. The video clip is sufficiently ripped out of context to ring alarm bells of "tabloid time" and there's more going on within context than a simple "open and shut" judgement is justified by.

Last edited by Vexx; 2010-05-29 at 02:48.
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Old 2010-05-29, 02:53   Link #45
Urzu 7
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Didn't even watch the video. Just saw what they are wearing in the video and read that their dancing was something a mature person should only dance like and that was enough for me to conclude that this is wrong. Especially their get-up. People shouldn't ever coordinate these kind of things and little girl beauty pagents because they make them dress like loose women when they aren't even 11 yet. It is wrong and it attracts pedophiles to the audience.

I don't know why society tolerates this. Think of it this way; if some group of people held a show where 8 year old boys dressed up like chip n' dale dancers and danced in ways that they simply shouldn't, there'd be a thunderous outcry. So why do some adults get away with dressing little girls like hoochies and then having them dance provokitively?
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Old 2010-05-29, 02:54   Link #46
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Wow, I'm overwhelmed by all these "analysis" lol.
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Old 2010-05-29, 03:58   Link #47
Sugetsu
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This is terribly sad... It is nothing new though. Children of this sort keep popping out left and right in western countries.

This proves how this society is descending into a downward spiral. All forms of art are degenerated now days. Corporations in their lust for profit are destroying this society from the inside out.

I feel sorry for those poor kids for having such uneducated and selfish parents. When those poor kids grow up they will reflect that shallow and materialistic view of the world which has been fed into them thanks to the corporate media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I don't know why society tolerates this. Think of it this way; if some group of people held a show where 8 year old boys dressed up like chip n' dale dancers and danced in ways that they simply shouldn't, there'd be a thunderous outcry. So why do some adults get away with dressing little girls like hoochies and then having them dance provokitively?
The answer to this question is very upsetting: Our society conditions people to be selfish, competitive and attention seeking. What this leads to, among many other things, is people seeking relationships or wanting kids purely because they wish to satisfy their own egos. Some kids are treated like pets, they are just cute little things that are to be shown and parade around, but when they grow up and start thinking on their own, and not be so cute any more, parents seek ways to distance themselves from their offspring.


By the way check this out:


Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-05-29 at 04:17.
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Old 2010-05-29, 04:49   Link #48
Cub-Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Example: You made an assertion of opinion as fact, hence my response. Dance is always viewed through the lens of cultural baggage. The video clip is sufficiently ripped out of context to ring alarm bells of "tabloid time" and there's more going on within context than a simple "open and shut" judgement is justified by.
Not really an opinion though, songs dont really show that type of dancing unless they're trying to be sexy (I'm not talking about the ballet because that is perfectly ok). Meaning that the dance is sexual in nature, so like I said its not really an opinion. Also when all I have is the video to judge by why is it wrong to come to that conclusion when taking it out of context?
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Old 2010-05-29, 05:17   Link #49
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Not really an opinion though, songs dont really show that type of dancing unless they're trying to be sexy (I'm not talking about the ballet because that is perfectly ok). Meaning that the dance is sexual in nature, so like I said its not really an opinion. Also when all I have is the video to judge by why is it wrong to come to that conclusion when taking it out of context?
The funny thing is if I didn't point out some of the various elements of their routine, I doubt any of the nay sayers were would have even bothered to check it out or even notice the ballet aspects or anything else for being blind by the 'that is so wrong, how dare they!' outcry that's going on in there.
That kinda dancing isn't people trying to be sexy, it's just one form of expression of movement of hundreds in this world of dance. The fact that a stripper would use similar moves is the correlation I think that's clouding too many people over.
Hell, I saw a pole dancer for the first time 3 months ago, (the event was a normal MJ celebration one in a small club) and me and a bunch of other middle aged Japanese women had our jaws to the floor cause of the skill it takes to balance an entire body on a freaking pole, it was amazing, I was kinda scared that she was gonna slip and fall. xD
But no cries of 'oh protect the children' (there was a 9 year old MJ impersonator there too) or 'how can she violate herself this way as a woman', just the skill overrode the attire she was in and that was what was appreciated.

CuXe, I'll get back to you later on the long, long post thing if this thread hasn't been locked by then *fingers crossed*, although your reply kinda left no debate as you were more or less repeating what I was saying to the point I got to the bottom line (eventually) of you blaming the parents for the combination of attire along with the dance which seems provocative as being 'wrong'.

I have split this from the start, the attire is the attire and yes, bad bad choice, we should all gather as an angry mob and shoot the designer/person who decided that, but the dance is just that, freaking awesome.
To be saying it's for 'mature ages', only directs me back to my long ass posts about these kinda dances, especially in urban music and as a culture, as kids you don't see/think or know this.
We also can't tell how these parents raise their kids normally, so we cannot assume that they don't instil similar values as mine did for me, CuXe, which you seemed to be pardoning me for.

But for someone like Urzu 7, who hasn't even checked the video but slammed it with the judgement hammer is only left with the negative idea of little girls dressed as hoochies, dancing provokingly.
(That isn't even the entire chorerography but one part of it) *facepalms*
And he doesn't acknowledge that there are girls out there who are amazingly talented dancers who can pull of such a show, nor do I think he can even sit back and enjoy or at least appreciate it anymore.

It's that kinda of negativity which is the reason why I turned flippant to envoke some deeper debate on narrowing down exactly what's wrong here that people are crying over.
Dance is fine, but the attire is not.
(And I'm curious to see if there are more old boring fuddy duddies about)
Which btw CuXe was never a serious statement from me when I called about 4 of you (back in page 1) that, as the smiley is attached. You're looking into it harder than I am, at least for that sentence, hence I've not 'downplayed' anything.
We've not danced in the debate circle in GC before, I guess we'll get to know each others posting style in time, mine is more or less how I've stated it. I make my points but openly admit to being flippant at times when I write, if I feel the need to go that far.
Those who know me on here well debating wise, also know that I do not back down easily either. (usually until a thread has been locked) xD
Chalk it down to British black humour and leave it there

Video wise, the combination of of the dance & attire I guess is too much for some, I'll admit it does add too much oil to what is already a smoldering flame (for some people) but remember the setting for this show was a national dance competition. As 'pretty' as they looked, most were looking for skill at the end of the day and that's where the focus/impression or arguement (ideally) should be on.

So if I see some arguements on the dance style alike me and CuXe were discussing then fine but on general outcry for the asthetics issue, I think most of us agree on the exploitation of that which is bad, especially as a growing issue in the West in the last 5 years or so.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2010-05-29 at 05:42.
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Old 2010-05-29, 08:29   Link #50
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
As 'pretty' as they looked, most were looking for skill at the end of the day and that's where the focus/impression or arguement (ideally) should be on.
Which I'll stress again, makes me question the thought processes and awareness of the adults who helped the kids organize this performance.

I mean, Most people (at least in this country) when presented with the information "Girls in tiny two piece leather outfits with boots and dance routines to Sultry pop songs" are probably going to viewed as being something designed to flaunt sexuality. Now this doesn't necessarily mean it's a negative perception, especially given the amount of such material Americans regularly consume. I'm just not buying that this is some overly moralistic fringe view.
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Old 2010-05-29, 08:44   Link #51
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
of course if you dress like a whore, and get called whore, don't get angry, you can't have it both ways.
Again, what is "dressing like a whore"? For some it's a mini-skirt, for some it's a mini-skirt and make-up, and for some it's something else. For me, it's looking at a prositute, saying, "I want to look like one, too!" and then deliberately emulating her, not because I like the clothes, or idolize the woman, but because I want to "dress like a whore".

If a guy goes around shirtless, I don't call him a man-slut, and I expect the same courtesy if I walk around in a mini-skirt. If I am met with disrespect instead, yes, I will get angry. Because I think I can have it both ways, I should have it both ways, as dressing in a certain way is not the same as selling my body. If someone really were to mistake me for a prostitute, that would be strange, but I'd laugh it off. If, however, the word "whore" was meant as an insult, which it usually is in such a situation, I'd feel insulted, and I would not keep my mouth shut about it. There are people who think if a woman dresses in a mini-skirt, she can not just be called, but treated like a whore, and that prositutes don't deserve basic human rights, like not being molested or assaulted. It's disgusting, and I feel very strongly about this matter as a whole.
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Old 2010-05-29, 09:38   Link #52
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This is to me a fine example to what our society has turned into. Children are no longer seen as children but as mini adults nowadays

When I was in my first year of highschool and I graduated 4 years ago, it wasn't like this. In fact when I was in my final year which was in 2006 there were first graders who wore nothing but short cut jeans that were cut all the way up to their hip and strap tops that ended right below their breasts.

Now did anyone pay attention to TV in those days and how things escalated to all this? It started with artists showing that instead of children they were grown ups too, take a look at Justing Timberlake who still did it classy, Britney Spears and Christina who turned up the hot momma readings by wearing skimpy clothing and doing one thing and on things only in nearly all their video's: make out with men, moan/groan with the music and dance as if there were a stripper pole right next to them.

It escalated since then, back then the first people did it and they had success and even though for them it was temporary: Justin now wears suits and is a gentleman kind of person, Christina turned old time Hollywood classic and Britney was hardly ever heard from again. We got the Pussycat Dolls who took this all to a more casual level, it wasn't about I'm an artist and I am growing up no it turned into I am man eating, moaning and groaning person that wears sexy outfits and loves the looks they receive from men and I don't care what you say about it because I am not changing, and they don't. They remain like this making it more casual and normal and from their success more artists sprouted out: Beyoncé turned up her hot momma factor but not always that bad but people like Lady Gaga remain on it all the time.

Now you have people taking it up to the next level and that is music like Lady Gaga's: take a ride on my disco stick. We all know what that means, teens these days know what it means and they think it is alright!

Children are being confronted with sexuality a great deal earlier because it has become so casual. In commercials, movies but most importantly music and music videos.

A singer is who they look up to and if nearly half of what is shown on MTV and other music channels wears nothing but skimpy clothing and does nothing else but give signs that making out with people is fun and goes without consequence then they are going to follow that behavior.

I wouldn't mind people wearing a short skirt, but today a short skirt is a shortest skirt. Same with guys wearing low pants however the video's are usually about the girls being sluts and not the guys, no they have to act cool and laid back about it.

The dancing is very good in that video, but the moves are something I would expect from adult dancers. Anyone thinking it is alright should think to themselves why these girls, these children are already being drilled to be adults. Why can't they just be kids for a change.

Why does society now not only force children to become rapid adults and yet at the same time complain about not having control on what people wear etc.
Why can't kids just be kids?

I am also putting into this post:
In Brittain there a pole dancing classes now for 7 year olds
Adding the banned push up bra for 7-8 year olds
http://www.newser.com/story/24527/uk...sh-up-bra.html
And how this year in the news at proms teachers are banning students who wear skimpy clothing

An example of what happened in 2008:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...rom.dress.khou

A custom made dress but would you let your child wear that, seriously sorry but that is a slutty outfit and I think it is a huge warning sign if teens these days think it is fashionable and normal to wear.

Here's another article from the NYPost from this year about the risque prom dresses:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/p...xUMuvj6P6MhgRI

Back then it started with short skirt but modern days it has turned from short to shortest.
And that is what I think of with the dancing vid also, everything is going to extremes and people do not mind and do not notice.
Children are not meant to be children anymore, half their idols want to show off how adult and sexy they are and they want to follow into that because they are their idol.
The days of children playing outside at the age of 12-14 is over, instead the minimum age in my country to have sex has gone down to 10-12, 13 year old kids rob old ladies and they talk as if they are adults and at least 5 times a year stab each other in a stupid argument.
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:29   Link #53
cheyannew
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I have a constant battle w/ my daughter about her attire; in school, there's girls wearing skirts that BARELY stay w/in limits (hold your arms down. where your fingertip on your middle finger comes to on your leg? that's the shortest the school allows). IMO it's still too short, especially for active kids; I don't want to think how often someone's underwear is flashed.

I dont' let my daughter wear skirts like that to school. hers are all knee length or more, and she chafes at it, because no one else has that limitation. She does have some shortish "skorts" (the skirts w/ the built in shorts), but VERY rarely wears them to school, as I don't find it appropriate.

I'm a fuddy duddy, after all

This is starting to become a conversation about the "standards" or "morals" of kids' clothing going downhill, I'm not sure if that's in topic or not LOL!

(PS - That padded bra looks like some of the stuff on the racks when I went bra shopping w/ my daughter (who's now 10) and she WANTED the pretty lacy bra (I guess cause it was like mine) and I said "No" and got her the plainest non-underwire (really??? why would they need underwire in a TRAINING bra? there's not enough to HOLD lol) bra in taupe and white. No, no black, because not only didn't they have any, but I've seen 6th graders in my son's school wear black bras under white shirts, I guess they think it's sexy, but to me, looks tacky. I didn't want to give the girlchild any ideas )
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:29   Link #54
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As said before, the dancing technique is absolutely wonderful, especially for prepubescent girls. I know dancers much older than them who couldn't nail that double pirouette like that one girl.

Even so, the midriff-baring costumes and moves worthy to be seen "up in the club", as the song says, have got to go. Who the heck choreographed this??
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:45   Link #55
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komari View Post
As said before, the dancing technique is absolutely wonderful, especially for prepubescent girls. I know dancers much older than them who couldn't nail that double pirouette like that one girl.

Even so, the midriff-baring costumes and moves worthy to be seen "up in the club", as the song says, have got to go. Who the heck choreographed this??
are you a loli fan? lol i kid i kid.

my mother saw this and she said "say hi to the future Prostatutes" and "those pedo's must be having a orgasm right now"
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:51   Link #56
cheyannew
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Well, I know one thing this thread accomplished...


getting that damned song stuck in my head ALL FREAKING DAY lol
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Old 2010-05-29, 11:47   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
are you a loli fan? lol i kid i kid.

my mother saw this and she said "say hi to the future Prostatutes" and "those pedo's must be having a orgasm right now"
My word choice isn't good in the morning. XD
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Old 2010-05-29, 12:53   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheyannew View Post
Well, I know one thing this thread accomplished...


getting that damned song stuck in my head ALL FREAKING DAY lol
here, i'll help ya with that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-JHfXVlkik <- most Fin addictive song ever made XD

btw, yes my mom is a ____. No reason to get mad at me tho.
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Old 2010-05-29, 14:42   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Again, what is "dressing like a whore"? For some it's a mini-skirt, for some it's a mini-skirt and make-up, and for some it's something else. For me, it's looking at a prositute, saying, "I want to look like one, too!" and then deliberately emulating her, not because I like the clothes, or idolize the woman, but because I want to "dress like a whore".

If a guy goes around shirtless, I don't call him a man-slut, and I expect the same courtesy if I walk around in a mini-skirt. If I am met with disrespect instead, yes, I will get angry. Because I think I can have it both ways, I should have it both ways, as dressing in a certain way is not the same as selling my body. If someone really were to mistake me for a prostitute, that would be strange, but I'd laugh it off. If, however, the word "whore" was meant as an insult, which it usually is in such a situation, I'd feel insulted, and I would not keep my mouth shut about it. There are people who think if a woman dresses in a mini-skirt, she can not just be called, but treated like a whore, and that prositutes don't deserve basic human rights, like not being molested or assaulted. It's disgusting, and I feel very strongly about this matter as a whole.
Look there is no way your not going to stereotyped, the fact is there is a certain look associated with streetwalkers and whores, this is just the way things work in the world. If you dress like that stereotype, people who will connect 2 and 2 together. Why? It's the need for the human brain to make connection and fill out missing information with any sort of identifier. My statement is "don't get mad when someone calls you a whore, when you dress like a whore" because you can choose to dress like a whore. There are people who think that women who show a lot of skin are whores but come on you know what I meant, because I'm a rather progressive guy and I'm young so for me skimpy was just daily apparel in high school. There is a whore look and if you wear that apparel because it empowers you go right ahead, but in that case you can't get mad when people make the connection that your apparel dictate your job. Who the hell said prostitutes don't deserve basic human rights? the only reason they aren't protected is because their profession puts them on the illegal side of business, they can't say that they were molested by a john because that could very well lead to an arrest for prostitution, does it make it ok? no but they chose that profession so they should at least be aware of the risks associated with that profession.

Mind you this is not Europe, so there is no way to solicit a prostitute, the only way you can tell is if one asks you or you are actively looking for one. Hence why there is prostitute look. Again I think our differences comes from whats legal and whats illegal across the pond.
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Old 2010-05-29, 14:48   Link #60
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Who the hell said prostitutes don't deserve basic human rights? the only reason they aren't protected is because their profession puts them on the illegal side of business, they can't say that they were molested by a john because that could very well lead to an arrest for prostitution, does it make it ok? no but they chose that profession so they should at least be aware of the risks associated with that profession.
In a hurry right now and will reply to the rest later, but there are quite a few countries in which prostitution is legal. My point, though, was that quite a few people hold the believe that you "can't rape a whore" anyway, and that even small things can fuel this belief.

Edit:
Ah, you edited. xD All right, yes, I agree with the last part.
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