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Old 2010-05-29, 03:32   Link #2001
kk2extreme
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i like the death and rebirth movie, that is where asuka really shines
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Old 2010-05-29, 04:25   Link #2002
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This movie tends to lead to more questions than answer now. Oh well I am loving it. I LOVE Mari, even tho I am an Asuka fan. But somehow it kinda saddens me that they changed her character. She was for me a quite a weird one, with the death of her mom and trying to prove she is the best. In the movie, she's a loner because she chose to, and not being the best does not really bother her that much. She did open her heart to accept other people due to her interactions with Shinji, but that kinda don't make sense. In the TV series, they have a love/hate/love relationship with each other, but in 2.0, they only had one talk when Asuka sleeps on his bed.

I am still puzzled on the Eva itself. It's implied that it don't really need a soul, since Mari can pilot both Unit 05 and 02 flawlessly. But the rejection of the dummy plug by 01, and Gendou's line implies that Yui's soul is in there. So either only unit 01 have a soul, or Mari is actually an angel, which also don't make any sense as Kaworu is also there

Kaworu prematurely ending 3rd impact, and the fact that Seelee forbids Gendou and Fuyutsuki to land on the moon must mean that they had figured out Gendou's plan already somewhere along the way.

ahhh~~ the sweet smell of conspiracy. But I do believe that this is a continuation of End of Eva, and not just a remake
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Old 2010-05-29, 06:09   Link #2003
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or Mari is actually an angel, which also don't make any sense as Kaworu is also there
Why would that be? I'm not saying she is or isn't but there's no rule that there can't be two hybrid Angels at the same time.

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She did open her heart to accept other people due to her interactions with Shinji, but that kinda don't make sense.
I would say it's because she's very aggressive in her "Me! You only need me!" attitude, then her second Angel fight shows every reason why she was wrong. Since Shinji just happened to be there....
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Old 2010-05-29, 06:22   Link #2004
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Mari has to be a NORMAL schoolgirl,well...sort of

But to me,she seem to have motive to destroy the EVAs...another reason why I say she is with some organisation that oppose SEELE(destroying EVA would delay the human instrumentaliry plan)

At the sametime,she fight the Angel as well...the angel would kill everyone if they got to Lilith anyway...
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Old 2010-05-29, 08:10   Link #2005
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Um...how did you get "Motive to kill the Evas?" All evidence points to her being a nymphomaniac when it comes to piloting Evas and sniffing LCL. If anything, she's the most protective and caring about them.
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Old 2010-05-29, 08:55   Link #2006
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We know nothing about Mari at this point, her motivations, or whoever it is is guiding her. There's potential to be had in that, and I think the next movie should answer some of those questions.
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Old 2010-05-29, 08:56   Link #2007
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that being said she reminds me of the British Shorthair XD

Anyways, seems that instrumentality can be started with Unit 01 (Lilith) and Unit 00 (Adam)'s core. Wonder why Gendou did not try to do it earlier
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:14   Link #2008
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
We know nothing about Mari at this point, her motivations, or whoever it is is guiding her. There's potential to be had in that, and I think the next movie should answer some of those questions.
This.

Quite frankly it's pretty obvious she has an important role to play. The fact that she's been moving around in the background of the events occurring, operating for some other organization. This is most clear when she lands on the school roof and radios in.

I'm insanely interested in who she's working for and what their end game is.
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Old 2010-05-29, 13:26   Link #2009
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They already achieved what I would say is almost absolute perfection in End of Evangelion.
Thats the problem right there. If you think EoE was near perfection then nothing Rebulid will do will ever satisfy you. 2.0 has made it clear its going in a much different direction than the original show.


Also note that the world does not exist at the end of the original show. The world might be rebuilt but it wouldn't be the same.

Eva 2.0 shows we are not going the same route since we're basically past that point. Likely shinji will be forced to deal with this world rather the escape to build a new one.
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Old 2010-05-29, 14:06   Link #2010
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Hell, before the first Rebuild movie even aired, it was advertised that the fourth movie would be a completely new ending.
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Old 2010-05-29, 14:25   Link #2011
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Bravo, you've just demonstrated nerd-rage on the scale of some fandoms. That's quite a feat. Not a dock against you, understand, but I can't help but imagine a boiling kettle.

Relax, breath in a bit, and take off the lenses of nostalgia (and fanboyism).

I need to ask, what is it so hard to understand about the term 'reimagining'? I'm sure you're familiar, being American, with both iterations of Battlestar Galactica? The case is similar, where an old or familiar franchise or setting is revisited with a new perspective, which is what the Rebuild movies are: the EVA mythos with a relatively more upbeat outlook. Or maybe just a dash of the Domino Effect thrown in...
Oh nerd rage indeed . My difficulty with the term re-imagining is that it's like Anno decides to write a fanfic about his own creation. That's what I often felt this movie was like. And in terms of fanfics/doujins/etc., I think sadly something like the EVA RE-TAKE doujin does a better job than Anno in these movies.

My difficulty with this is that since Anno is taking the helm here, unlike something like Angelic Days (Which I actually find quite a bit silly), I expect him to make something that truly shocks me, shakes my very soul like the original NGE. I don't want something that all it serves is to provide fanwank, like re-polished Eva fights, fanservice, etc.

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As for the 'simplified' characterization, well ask yourself, as someone familiar with the TV series, is there any possible way to squeeze what amounted to 7 episodes worth of character building in the second movie, without sacrificing everything else? We know she was a queen bitch in the series, because of all the scenes spread out through the second half of the anime that showed us that she was, indeed, a little girl with MAJOR issues. That's just not possible in a movie format though, so we have what you saw, queen bitch lite. Which, I think, made her movie incarnation more likeable for the casual viewer (not us) than the angry ball of angst we knew.
Well like I've been saying over and over again... The time constraints has really been killing the character developments and character interactions. But at the same time, I see no real effort to try to do anything about it.

Still, Asuka isn't even a real bitch anymore like she originally was. She's just a typical Tsundere, with a shallow amount of emotional development given. She's also not nearly as prideful as her original self. But look, I'd accept this if this was some sort of fan creation, but this is Anno and is essentially canon almost on par with the original Evangelion.

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The same could be said of Rei. Most of Rei's mystery in the original series was built up slowly over the course of twenty-two or so episodes. Here, the studio is working with little over than two hours worth of time. Characterization HAD to be brought up to speed, but I think there's more than a little Domino Effect from the previous movie at work here as well (and likely going to snowball into the next movie, judging by the preview).

(Yes, TV Sequel conspiracy theories aside, I do think it's helpful to think of the Rebuild movies as its own kind of alternate timeline, where destiny nudged a bit in one direction instead of another.)
Well I do think the TV Sequel consipiracy is an open debate .

Being able to not give a lot of development is one thing, but changing the entire character is another. That's what bothers me. I still don't understand the merit of completely changing the characters. That should be left for fan creations, a world where you can do whatever you want with the series.

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And Shinji? In the context of the TV series the confidence this Shinji displayed would make no sense. In the context of the TV series. However, in the cotext of the Rebuild movies, it makes a lot of sense (a lot of little nudges add up eventually), including his anger at the end.
I didn't see enough difference in his character from the original Evangelion that goes on to suggest anything like this.

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How about Mari? Just how in Haruhi's name is she a Mary Sue? Are you even familiar with how a Mary Sue is defined? It's not just a character inserted into an established timeline, no sir, there also has to be a dash of idealized wish-fulfillment involved that normally results in a 'perfect' and 'flawless' character... Which Mari isn't. Shinji did not fall in love with her at first sight, nor did she excel at piloting; have you conveniently ignored the fact that she's never had a 'clean' success in any of her outings? EVA-05 was lost, and for all intents and purposes Unit-02 was totaled.

What Mari is, I think you want to say, is undefined as a character. Which is not surprising, as she's just been introduced in the movie. There's still two more movies for her motivations (and instabilities) to be revealed. Compare Mari to, say, Kirishima Mana, who actually HAD traits that fit with the typical Mary Sue (including having Shinji nearly fall in love with her).
The universe's rules and logical flow are literally warped for the sole purpose of making room for her character. You can't get a better definition of a Mary Sue.

Also, I can tell you a little more why I don't like her. I think the following poster presents my feelings pretty accurately.

Quote:
Well, there's always your butthurt Asuka fanboy (someone had to say it), but honestly, looking at things the most objectively i can, i really think that her "Wheeee, giant robots are teh fun!" attitude actually managed to lessen dramatic tension whenever she appeared.

I just couldn't take her or her involvment seriously. Singing before engagement? Exclaiming "Nyah!" before jumping Zeruel, the uberdestructive harbinger of Armageddon? Come on!

Maybe she is a character who is meant to both enthrall and entertain, but call me weird: i don't want to be "entertained" in the classic fun having sense when i watch anything Eva related. I want to be pulverized into my chair and have my emotions violently be played with, something i just couldn't get out of her so far (for the record, 2.0 as a whole was pretty slim in this department for me).

We know almost nothing of her yet, and can't even make guesses at how she will contribute to Rebuild as a whole in the future, but i honestly fear that she represents a paradigm shift towards "Fun with biomechs" from "Gritty inter-Apocalyptic tragedy". And Rebuild or not, happier Anno or not, in my mind, the latter is the only way for Eva to really work. Otherwise, it's just Gurren Lagann/Mazinger Z/<insert> with different giant robots.
She kind of basically represents everything I hate in the new Rebuild movies.

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It's true that it's more implied than directly stated...I'm talking mostly about stuff like this (and sorry if I'm stepping on people's toes by singling out some particular comments...I'm not doing it as an attack, and I hope no one takes it as such):

And reckoner's signature:

Implying that a TRUE FAN won't like the new movie...but here I am, and here Myssa Rei is. Both of us are true fans, and both of us liked it. And I don't know about Myssa, but I'm a HUGE Asuka fan, and I still loved the new movie.

You either like the movie or you don't. Liking it doesn't make you a "better" fan of the original, and neither does disliking it.
I like to think that the people who like the Rebuild movies were simply looking for something else in the series that I was not. That is, fans like you are different. The Evangelion fan base isn't one uniform body so I apologize in generalizing it.

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Even a dash of Optimism get you down?

Familiar with Turn-A Gundam, or even the Zeta Gundam movies? While not exactly commercial successes, they're close to what's happening with the Rebuild movies. While not exactly happy (people still die left and right in the New Translation movies), they are overall a more positive look on (Universal Century) Gundam franchise, in this case by the big daddy of Gundam directors Tomino.

Yes, Kill them All Tomino. Compare the incredibly dark atmosphere of Victory Gundam with Turn-A's light-hearted idealism.
The way I like to think of this is like cooking food. Evangelion had certain ingredients, and Anno cooked it in a way that I found very pleasing. Now I don't mind if he wants to try to cook it a little differently, and change the flavor a little bit by adding/changing a few ingredients... But if he completely changes the ingredients and the way he cooks it, it's now a different dish that I just don't appreciate as much.

Again, I don't think the Rebuild movies are "bad" from an objective stand point, but they aren't legendary like the original Evangelion TV series. It's only when I take account the fact that I simply can't separate the two from each other in my viewing, that I feel very angered.

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I used to help Axel Terizaki out with Asuka's Notebook, but that pretty much fell by the wayside when I started working full-time. That should clue you in just how huge a fan I am (ah Shipping, the sin of youth). But I wasn't bothered at all of what happened to her in the movie, and like this interpretation of her old characterization a little better than the old queen bitch routine. And I wasn't bothered by Mari stepping into part of her role due to the circumstances in Rebuild 2.22.

Oooooooooof course, I might be more forgiving of Mari (that name is SO hilarious in context now) since I think I was one of the few people in the old EFML who paid any kind of positive attention to the extracanonicals like Kirishima Mana and Yamigishi Mayumi, especially the latter when many of my contemporaries at the time were asking "2nd Impression? What's that?"
I never questioned your devotion to the Evangelion franchise. I am only questioning your devotion to a certain iteration of the Evangelion franchise, the main canon.

I kid. But honestly, Asuka Shinji and Misato had to be my three favorite characters from the original. So it realllllllllyyyyyyyy pains me to see Asuka changed in manner that I find disagreeable.

As for Mari, I've already talked about her enough.

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Hell, before the first Rebuild movie even aired, it was advertised that the fourth movie would be a completely new ending.
That's not my problem with Rebuild. I already knew this from the beginning and was not apposed to it.

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Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post
Thats the problem right there. If you think EoE was near perfection then nothing Rebulid will do will ever satisfy you. 2.0 has made it clear its going in a much different direction than the original show.


Also note that the world does exist at the end of the original show. The world might be rebuilt but it wouldn't be the same.

Eva 2.0 shows we are not going the same route since we're basically past that point. Likely shinji will be forced to deal with this world.
I'm going to use a food comparison. You can prepare a dish in many different way. Some ways I like better than others, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy different ones.

Last edited by Reckoner; 2010-05-29 at 14:36.
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Old 2010-05-29, 16:01   Link #2012
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How about me? I watched the original TV series, own the complete DVD set, have both End of Evangelion and Death and Rebirth AND the Renewal of Evangelion DVDs... But I also have the PS version of Girlfriend of Steel, the PC version of Girlfriend of Steel 2, a VERY RARE Sega Saturn disc of 2nd Impression, the PC version of The Shinji Ikari Raising Game and the Rei Ayanami Raising game, plus the Evangelion Typing game.
Lol, I think Myssa Rei the "True fan" here, getting everything Eva related, even rare stuff.

@Reckoner

but your complaints are that the characters are different when thats sort of the point of rebuild. Rebuild the characters to make a new ending.


Oh well, you can't please all the people all the time. Poor Anno, having to be held to such ridiculously high standards. I don't believe Anno ever thought Eva would be so ground breaking.

Ha, lesson to be learned is make something good but not too good or else fans will look down on your other work as not a great as your "perfect creation".
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Old 2010-05-29, 16:51   Link #2013
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Apparently owning more physical Eva related stuff is far more important than how you understood, accepted and loved the original characters the way they were and to feel them robbed off their emotions and turned into looney toons to be more lovable and easy to chew is just so wrong. I guess i won't believe in me i'll believe in you who believes i'm delusional.
I'll just stop here and hope the next 2 movies will make up for the loss.
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Old 2010-05-29, 16:56   Link #2014
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They lacked emotions in the original were 2d more than anything. Shinji the one that lacked any confidence, Rei who lack emotion and viewed herself has nothing more than a doll, and the endless bitch queen. They seems more real to me in the rebuild were events do effect them and they change and grow.

True, owning more stuff doesn't make you more of fan but neither does refusing to except rebuild because it dared to change characters. Nothing wrong with thinking Rebuild is worst than the original but that does not make one a true fan either.

Clearly Anno thought there was another way he could tell the story of eva. If he just wanted to milk Eva he would have just remade the original with the exact same content with just better artwork (a la Star Wars). Instead he took the big (and apparently very real) risk of pissing off old fans to make a new story. I think Anno should be applauded for that at least.


As for Mari, she was just introduced in this movie while the focus was on other characters. I suspect she will have a larger roll in future moives. Considering that 2.0 was her Introduction, that means the 2 last movies no longer need to worry about that and can focus on her mission. It adds mystery to 3.0 about what will happen.
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Old 2010-05-29, 17:19   Link #2015
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Wow, the new directions these movies are heading is quite refreshing. I was thinking this was going to be a rehash of the original with new scenes added, but I love the way the movies are going. It is like watching something new, and I am taking it as something new.

I was saddened by Asuka's demise, but the preview with her one-eye (argghh, matey, me be a pirate now), was so promising. I love her new character and outlook in life, much better than her depressing, suicidal tendencies of the original.

Also, at the end, whatever the guy's name is attacking Shinji, said that this time, no matter what, he will make Shinji happy. This leads me to believe that he and Shinji have met before, leading to some of the comments already listing that this could be a continuation of End of Evangelion.

I can't wait for movie 3 and then 4.
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Old 2010-05-29, 18:18   Link #2016
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Oh well, you can't please all the people all the time. Poor Anno, having to be held to such ridiculously high standards. I don't believe Anno ever thought Eva would be so ground breaking.

Ha, lesson to be learned is make something good but not too good or else fans will look down on your other work as not a great as your "perfect creation".
I'm quite sure the people at Gainax in the nineties were very much aware that the TV-series was pushing the envelope of what had been done in TV-animation. It's the commercial success, the size and diversity of the audiences that it reached which are the surprise given the experimental nature of the project.

You don't have to be a fan of the TV-series to objectively asses the contribution of it to the medium. For example it had innovative mecha designs, clever budget allocation, more complex character development, transformed stills to accent the atmosphere and style of the series, etc. In a way that had not been done, or to such an extent, before.

Expecting that the Rebuilt movies would be as revolutionary as the TV-series is impossible. You can't push the envelope with the same invention twice. Anno's directing skills cannot affect that, no matter how good they are.
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Old 2010-05-29, 18:19   Link #2017
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Why are people surprised Asuka was alive until the previews? There's a whole 2 minute scene between Ritsuko and Maya that she's alive (albeit "preserved")
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Old 2010-05-29, 18:28   Link #2018
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Why are people surprised Asuka was alive until the previews? There's a whole 2 minute scene between Ritsuko and Maya that she's alive (albeit "preserved")
It was because Gendo Ikari said to dispose of her after Shinji said he quitted.

Edit: It could be my mistake because he said to "erase the third child". I kept thinking Asuka is the third child. Then I rechecked, and it looks like Rei called Asuka the second child.

Now, I'm confused. Who is the first, second, and third child again?
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Old 2010-05-29, 18:41   Link #2019
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I'm quite sure the people at Gainax in the nineties were very much aware that the TV-series was pushing the envelope of what had been done in TV-animation.
I doubt that every much, the "clever budget allocation" was more the result of trying to finish the show before they run out of money. If the show flopped it could have hurt the company quite a bit, wouldn't be the first show to try to be innovative and fail to make money. Lucky for us Eva caught on in a big way.

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Who is the first, second, and third child again?
I would assume in this case its Shinji. Without being a pilot Shinji has no value in being kept alive. Though maybe not considering Gendo does seem to want to somewhat protect Shinji thanks to his dead wifes wishes.
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Old 2010-05-29, 18:44   Link #2020
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Apparently owning more physical Eva related stuff is far more important than how you understood, accepted and loved the original characters the way they were and to feel them robbed off their emotions and turned into looney toons to be more lovable and easy to chew is just so wrong. I guess i won't believe in me i'll believe in you who believes i'm delusional.
I'll just stop here and hope the next 2 movies will make up for the loss.
Again, we hit this dichotomy you present: if you love, accept and understand the characters in the show, you'll hate the movie.

I reject that notion.

I can love and respect the original characters the way they were AND enjoy the new version.
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