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Old 2010-05-30, 04:04   Link #2041
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by arias View Post
Whatever you think, I'm not slighting his age. Evangelion is really a realization of Hideaki Anno, this I'm sure everyone knows. And like all people, we change over time. Anno is now 50 years old this year, compared to 35 when he first directed EVA TV! And fans of Eva who could have digested it in some decent manner at its debut who were 13-25 are now 28-40 years old.

I think age and time are actually massive factors in understanding the significance of Rebuild of Evangelion and its place in the history and culture of anime.

The broken emotionality and deep-seated insecurity of the original EVA really led me to my first anxiety attack after finishing EoE, and obviously it's really awesome. But the kinds of problems manifested in the original EVA were also representative of the 4 year period in Anno's life where he felt he was a broken man... and I think the significant changes in undertones in Rebuild represents the answers or direction to where he took his life after that.
Oh yeah...I definitely agree. As Myssa Rei said, it's like the "newer, happier" Tomino who directed the Zeta Gundam movies as opposed to the Zeta Gundam show.

I always got the feeling that Eva was a story Anno NEEDED to tell, to try to exorcise those demons...the fact that it came out as well as it did is testament to his storytelling abilities and to the rest of the Gainax staff in helping to shape the series.

I'd also hope that Rebuild is likewise a story Anno needs to tell...and his focus has quite obviously changed. Which I think is kind of cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he NOW thinks is an appropriate finale for this world.
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Old 2010-05-30, 04:37   Link #2042
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Originally Posted by arias View Post
Their (Shinji and Rei's) connection (...) is really the driving force of the entire movie.
I have to utterly disagree. The main motivator for this movie is the Shinji/Gendo dynamic. Even Rei's primary goal is to get them together. After his dad "betrayed" him, Shinji simply choose to project his emotional neediness on someone else (Rei).

Shinji is, luckily, still as messed up as ever. There are only more explosions and a bigger budget to show that.
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Old 2010-05-30, 04:55   Link #2043
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Their (Shinji and Rei's) connection (...) is really the driving force of the entire movie.
I agree completely. Building off Rei's smile at the end of 1.0, Rei emotions finally blossom like they never did in the original all thanks to shinji. And in turn Shinji finds some balls at last. And its all thanks to a women. A man finds his balls thanks to a women. Amusing, no?
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Old 2010-05-30, 05:33   Link #2044
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
I have to utterly disagree. The main motivator for this movie is the Shinji/Gendo dynamic. Even Rei's primary goal is to get them together. After his dad "betrayed" him, Shinji simply choose to project his emotional neediness on someone else (Rei).

Shinji is, luckily, still as messed up as ever. There are only more explosions and a bigger budget to show that.

It's hard to say, we're bordering on fighting about whose opinion is right if we continue. Consider Final Fantasy X, which was a love story but also a father-son one, especially when you consider the final scene that Tidus experiences before dissolving into a dream.

One thing to note is that Rei wasn't the backup for emotional neediness; throughout the entire movie we see their relationship building and if you watched the original series you know their connection is more than just physical -- the strands of natural synchronization between the two stems from the traces of a family bond. Shinji is very much connected to Rei regardless of what Gendou did.

If you watch the elevator scene, she says she feels paka-paka when together with Shinji, and that she wants Shinji to feel paka-paka when together with her as well, and for Shinji/Gendou to feel paka-paka when they are together. It isn't exactly clear that her primary motive is to get the two together, although it's definitely an intention. Also the entire paka-paka thing again threads the line between romantic (wanting happiness for your other) and motherly (wanting your son and husband to be happy together). So perverted when you think about it


Finally, Shinji is in a much better state in Rebuild than ever in Eva. While he still has psychological problems in this one, he exerts his will in such a powerful, dramatic and glorious fashion at the climax in a way that draws admiration never before done in the Eva TV series + two movies. In the original, if he moved forward, they were but a little bit. In Rebuild, he really pushed it and gave it his all, initiating the third impact to save Rei because this Rei is THE Rei he wants to save. He also enjoys a moment of deep comfort with her that you almost NEVER EVER felt in the original series...

Honestly it's a much happier and positive Evangelion. In the original it almost felt like NONE of the characters could catch a break, and there was no redemption, up until the final rolling credits of End of Evangelion... "Kimochi warui."
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Old 2010-05-30, 06:35   Link #2045
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Originally Posted by arias View Post

One thing to note is that Rei wasn't the backup for emotional neediness; throughout the entire movie we see their relationship building and if you watched the original series you know their connection is more than just physical -- the strands of natural synchronization between the two stems from the traces of a family bond. Shinji is very much connected to Rei regardless of what Gendou did.

If you watch the elevator scene, she says she feels paka-paka when together with Shinji, and that she wants Shinji to feel paka-paka when together with her as well, and for Shinji/Gendou to feel paka-paka when they are together. It isn't exactly clear that her primary motive is to get the two together, although it's definitely an intention. Also the entire paka-paka thing again threads the line between romantic (wanting happiness for your other) and motherly (wanting your son and husband to be happy together). So perverted when you think about it


Finally, Shinji is in a much better state in Rebuild than ever in Eva. While he still has psychological problems in this one, he exerts his will in such a powerful, dramatic and glorious fashion at the climax in a way that draws admiration never before done in the Eva TV series + two movies. In the original, if he moved forward, they were but a little bit. In Rebuild, he really pushed it and gave it his all, initiating the third impact to save Rei because this Rei is THE Rei he wants to save. He also enjoys a moment of deep comfort with her that you almost NEVER EVER felt in the original series...

Honestly it's a much happier and positive Evangelion. In the original it almost felt like NONE of the characters could catch a break, and there was no redemption, up until the final rolling credits of End of Evangelion... "Kimochi warui."
Totally agree. I love GAR Shinji. He's becoming the "little engine that could".

After getting a full view and a bit more of nude Rei, no way he's going to grope Asuka.

So do think that Asuka got cloned for the next movie? When Rei was bandaged like that in the TV series, it was really a clone IIRC.
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Old 2010-05-30, 06:43   Link #2046
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Totally agree. I love GAR Shinji. He's becoming the "little engine that could".

After getting a full view and a bit more of nude Rei, no way he's going to grope Asuka.

So do think that Asuka got cloned for the next movie? When Rei was bandaged like that in the TV series, it was really a clone IIRC.
No, Asuka is shown to be still alive in 2.22.
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Old 2010-05-30, 07:22   Link #2047
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Originally Posted by arias View Post
It's hard to say, we're bordering on fighting about whose opinion is right if we continue.
Oh, i didn't say that you are wrong. Just that that i disagree and presented my own thesis. No opinion is absolute.

Quote:
Shinji is very much connected to Rei regardless of what Gendou did.
Definitely, Rei and Shinji share a very strong connection, with the Oedipal-undertones still there in spades. However, note that after the Eva-03 incident, when Gendo betrays and hurts Shinji (from Shinji's perspective), Shinji turns his back on everyone: Rei, Misato, his classmates... all because Gendo, the one person who Shinji really wanted to connect with, caused him pain.

In fact, from this perspective, downplaying the Shinji/Asuka dynamic was a great idea, now that i think about it: it shows that the real reason why Shinji displayed such an extreme reaction after the Unit-03 thing is not that he was nearly forced to hurt someone he knew (certainly not an upper on it's own, granted), but that it was his father that nearly made him do it.. and then did it without him anyway. He both betrayed and threw him away, in Shinji's mind (this is something that is clearly stated by Shinji himself in the following train-sequence).

Quote:
If you watch the elevator scene, she says she feels paka-paka when together with Shinji, and that she wants Shinji to feel paka-paka when together with her as well, and for Shinji/Gendou to feel paka-paka when they are together.
Indeed, Rei wants them to be happy together. But when i say that the main thing in this movie was the Shinji/Gendo relationship (or lack thereof), i'm examining things from Shinji's point of view. Right up until he saw Rei getting eaten by Zeruel, his father was on his mind the most. He talks about him to Misato, Asuka, he gets happy when he phrases him, and even views Rei's dinner party as an opportunity to get closer to Gendo (when he is lying on his back, thinking about the dinner, the first thing that pops into his mind is "I wonder if father will be there"). Which brings me right to...

Quote:
Finally, Shinji is in a much better state in Rebuild than ever in Eva. While he still has psychological problems in this one, he exerts his will in such a powerful, dramatic and glorious fashion at the climax in a way that draws admiration never before done in the Eva TV series + two movies.
Admirable? In a way, yes. Dramatic? Definitely.

But note Shinji's state of mind while doing it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAR Shinji
I don't care about the world.... nor about myself....
He wants to shut himself from the world ("The world my awful father exists in."), and most importantly, he lacks a solid, internal center, with which to find his own balance. He still relies on external relationships (with his father, with Rei) to find happiness, and can't really find anything worthy to live for within himself. So personally, i think he is still as desperate as he was in the series. It's just coated with a surface of high budget romantic machismo.

Quote:
In the original it almost felt like NONE of the characters could catch a break, and there was no redemption, up until the final rolling credits of End of Evangelion... "Kimochi warui."
Rebuild can have a happier ending, of course. I just think that there are still struggles ahead. And that makes sense when we consider that there are still movies to go, no?
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Old 2010-05-30, 07:32   Link #2048
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
But note Shinji's state of mind while doing it:

He wants to shut himself from the world ("The world my awful father exists in."), and most importantly, he lacks a solid, internal center, with which to find his own balance. He still relies on external relationships (with his father, with Rei) to find happiness, and can't really find anything worthy to live for within himself. So personally, i think he is still as desperate as he was in the series. It's just coated with a surface of high budget romantic machismo.
That's an interesting take, while your focus is on the first half of "I don't care about what I transform into, I don't care what happens to this world..."

My focus is on the second half of "... But for Rei, at least for Rei, I must save her!"

I don't think any of the main characters in Evangelion have "solid, internal center[s]", and Shinji is another fragment of Anno's psychic shards. Even Misato notes that the only time she could feel free from the world was with Kaji... and when you think of Asuka, Rei, Gendou and everyone else, none of them are particularly well-adjusted people : )

To me what was moving was the will exerted by Shinji to save Rei. You may view that sort of emotion a weakness -- when you really put someone else before yourself (shown metaphorically by the pain that Shinji endures in the blue world including the bursting of his skin to retrieve Rei) and the world (shown by the initiation of 3rd impact) -- on my end I view it as a romantic and heroic.
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Old 2010-05-30, 07:52   Link #2049
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Originally Posted by arias View Post
My focus is on the second half of "... But for Rei, at least for Rei, I must save her!"
Yes. She is the external source he wants to use to validate his existence. Saving her gives him a reason to be. "But if you can't love yourself, you can't truly love another." (quote from the original, Epsiode 26, i think)

Quote:
I don't think any of the main characters in Evangelion have "solid, internal center[s]"
But of course, they all run around in the same circles. It's just that, since Shinji is the protagonist, his problems get explored the most.


Quote:
To me what was moving was the will exerted by Shinji to save Rei. You may view that sort of emotion a weakness -- when you really put someone else before yourself (shown metaphorically by the pain that Shinji endures in the blue world including the bursting of his skin to retrieve Rei) and the world (shown by the initiation of 3rd impact) -- on my end I view it as a romantic and heroic.
Well, we have diverging interpretations. We shall see whether or not Anno gives us his own interpretation in the following movies.
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Old 2010-05-30, 10:53   Link #2050
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
Yes. She is the external source he wants to use to validate his existence. Saving her gives him a reason to be. "But if you can't love yourself, you can't truly love another." (quote from the original, Epsiode 26, i think)

To me, he saves her because HE HAS FEELINGS FOR HER. He wants to protect her.

I don't mean that you're incorrect in saying that saving her gives him a reason to be -- that's true for all actions in this mortal world. However, his act of wanting to save her is simply that urgent quickening you feel in your heart when someone close to you is being threatened.
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Old 2010-05-30, 13:23   Link #2051
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It's funny how certain fans seem like Shinji and Rei's scene at the very end of Rebuild, when others completely despise it. I can definitely see that people hate the movie for the same things that people love it. I suppose it's because of this that the fans can't find any common ground.

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Kid, if you're 18 now you were a baby subsisting on a diet of milk and subsolid foods when the original EVA was first released.

It has been 15 years and Hideaki Anno has changed, for the better. And so have all the fans who watched Evangelion at its debut or early on and have grown up 10-15 years later. The distance for you may only be a few small years, you probably do not realize how SIGNIFICANT the changes to the characters are to Anno and the series' fans after all this time.

Sure, some fans may be stuck in 1995 with the Evangelion drenched with existential dread, anxiety and angst. Anno has certainly moved on; as much as EVA TV was a manifestation of his psyche then, EVA Rebuild (note - rebuild, not remake) is a manifestation of his pscyhe now.

I loved 2.22, and I still love the original Eva. Can't wait for 3.0 and 4.0, and then have a mega collection and watch them all all over again!
I'm just going to ignore whatever you had to say about my age because that is utterly irrelevant. Just so you know I did see this series first in 2004, only about 9 years after Evangelion came out (Oh dear, imagine what this series did to my psyche at about 12-13 years old). Probably have rewatched this series at least 40 times, no joke.

We can talk about how Evangelion is an expression of Hideaki Anno's mindset at the time, and how this is just a different expression... But why does that matter? In the end, it's the product that has to deliver.

This is something that often happens with music. Sometimes I like an artist when he was going through depression, then he becomes happier, but his music just isn't as good. Do I find fault with the artist's mind set? No. But the music just isn't as good anymore. It doesn't speak to me, the emotion, just doesn't reach me.

I feel very much the same way about Rebuild 2.0. Now it seems that many here are able to feel connected to this new mind set and what he's trying to get at... But I just don't.

A major reason for this is that Evangelion represents a certain mindset for me that I can feel connected to, but Rebuild is trying to go in a different direction that really in the end just leaves me disconnected.

Again, maybe you like this, but I don't. If Anno took his work to a completely different anime, perhaps I would have been able to like it much more.
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Old 2010-05-30, 14:21   Link #2052
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It's funny how certain fans seem like Shinji and Rei's scene at the very end of Rebuild, when others completely despise it. I can definitely see that people hate the movie for the same things that people love it. I suppose it's because of this that the fans can't find any common ground.
Indeed, I've said that before too. Its rather amusing.

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A major reason for this is that Evangelion represents a certain mindset for me that I can feel connected to, but Rebuild is trying to go in a different direction that really in the end just leaves me disconnected.
That was his point, the older fans will have a different mindset than younger fans and are more likely to enjoy rebuild. Whether thats true or enough? who knows... Its an interesting theory though.


P.S.

The problem with your sig is that everyone thats a fan of Rebuild is by necessity a fan of the original NGE. A hugh part of 2.0 is the contrast between how the pilots act in the original NGE vs the movie.

So the original NGE has no shortage of fans.
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Old 2010-05-30, 14:49   Link #2053
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I'm a veteran of the original series and an avid hater of remakes, however these ones are an exception to me.

I think they've done a great job of retelling the old story so it feels fresh. Yeah, I knew how everything was going to go in this, yet I was still at the edge of my seat the entire time as I didn't know how they were going to get there this time.

Shinji is still lost, confused and torn but I don't feel his desire to save Rei is entirely new here. Even in the original geofront battle he was still frantic over what was happening to her. However, yeah, he has grown some balls this time around and given this is a retelling of the original, I would have spit fireballs if they'd made him even weaker and whinier!

What I'm not happy with is now Asuka's role seems to be greatly diminished, especially as she seems to be timesharing with Mari now, I didn't feel the connection to her that I felt before, she didn't get enough screentime to develop before they smashed her down. I thought that was an important missing piece of her character. Her huge ego, inflated after every battle and her sense of invincibility growing up like a huge balloon, before the angel popped it with a pin and she was brutally taken apart. It just wasn't there this time.

Apologies if someone has already explained this elsewhere, but why the name change from Soryu?

Last edited by airstorm; 2010-05-30 at 14:50. Reason: clarification
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Old 2010-05-30, 15:08   Link #2054
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Originally Posted by airstorm View Post
I'm a veteran of the original series and an avid hater of remakes, however these ones are an exception to me.

I think they've done a great job of retelling the old story so it feels fresh. Yeah, I knew how everything was going to go in this, yet I was still at the edge of my seat the entire time as I didn't know how they were going to get there this time.

Shinji is still lost, confused and torn but I don't feel his desire to save Rei is entirely new here. Even in the original geofront battle he was still frantic over what was happening to her. However, yeah, he has grown some balls this time around and given this is a retelling of the original, I would have spit fireballs if they'd made him even weaker and whinier!

What I'm not happy with is now Asuka's role seems to be greatly diminished, especially as she seems to be timesharing with Mari now, I didn't feel the connection to her that I felt before, she didn't get enough screentime to develop before they smashed her down. I thought that was an important missing piece of her character. Her huge ego, inflated after every battle and her sense of invincibility growing up like a huge balloon, before the angel popped it with a pin and she was brutally taken apart. It just wasn't there this time.

Apologies if someone has already explained this elsewhere, but why the name change from Soryu?
I'll be honest...I missed a lot of the Shinji/Asuka interaction as well. As others have pointed out, the focus here is definitely on Shinji's connections with Rei and Gendo (which again, makes it a lot like Sadamoto's manga).

As far as the name change...I dunno. But now we've got ayaNAMI, shikiNAMI, and makiNAMI, all using the same kanji at the end (meaning "waves").

Clearly, that was a conscious choice on the creators' part, but if it has any real meaning or is just them being cute remains to be seen...
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Old 2010-05-30, 15:10   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post
That was his point, the older fans will have a different mindset than younger fans and are more likely to enjoy rebuild. Whether thats true or enough? who knows... Its an interesting theory though.


P.S.

The problem with your sig is that everyone thats a fan of Rebuild is by necessity a fan of the original NGE. A hugh part of 2.0 is the contrast between how the pilots act in the original NGE vs the movie.

So the original NGE has no shortage of fans.
But you missed my point .

What he was saying was that through time, age, and growth, with a different view in life then I would be better able to appreciate what's been done to the characters, Anno's mindset now as a 50 year old instead of a 35 year old.

But it's not the mindset that gets me exactly. I have no problem with trying to explore a bit of a more positive mindset and perhaps conclusion to Evangelion... However, in doing so, I would still like the characters kept in tact, and I want to see how these characters reach that point without actually having been changed.

That's why it disappoints me to see Shinji act the way he did in the end of 2.0 because this is not the same character who managed to reach that conclusion. He seems like a different character, and hence, a character I cannot connect well with at that point.

P.S.

About my sig... Those who are willing to like Rebuild have casted off your faith in the original. You have let our sanctuary be defiled! You are all heathens!

I might change my sig once I calm down from my nerd-raging. It just goes to show you that all that's been on my mind this past month has been Evangelion... Rewatched the series all over again (Even episodes 25&26!), then saw 1.0, and then this movie.

Its almost as if I am living vicariously through this series .

But really, as my favorite show ever, with nothing that even comes close to this... I have good reason to care so much about this series.
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Old 2010-05-30, 15:34   Link #2056
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
As far as the name change...I dunno. But now we've got ayaNAMI, shikiNAMI, and makiNAMI, all using the same kanji at the end (meaning "waves").
Ah, didn't see that. And in keeping with the WW2 ship naming convention all three of the pilots are named after Destroyers now, whereas before Soryu was an aircraft carrier (if I remember correctly).

Reckoner, you're a braver soul than me to watch 25+26 more than once. When I introduce people to Eva I put them straight to EoE after ep 24.

I don't think the characters have been changed very drastically, they are the same ones, but the stimulus provided to them has now been altered, so their reactions and perceptions have changed. Not to try digging too deep here (though, thats a lost cause as its Evangelion), but Shinji didn't have as much time in the movies to bond (positively) with Asuka as he did with Rei, who also had the opportunity to express some emotions back to him too (remember he never found out Asuka was trying to cook for him but he had read Rei's invitation). That he therefore felt far closer to her and fought harder to save her is hardly a surprise. Also, as the movies seem to be stringing events over a shorter period of time, they don't get as much of the war weariness of the series. They get to maintain some of their confidence, hope and optimism and that is showing.
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Old 2010-05-30, 15:57   Link #2057
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Are we Star Wars yet?

Did Shinji shoot first?
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Old 2010-05-30, 16:27   Link #2058
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Are we Star Wars yet?

Did Shinji shoot first?
Spoiler for Yes.:
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Old 2010-05-30, 17:05   Link #2059
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Spoiler for Yes.:
ROFL

Case closed. Nothing more needs to be discussed, this is undeniable evidence.
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Old 2010-05-30, 17:17   Link #2060
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Spoiler for Yes.:
He doesn't have to this time. He has Rei now.
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