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Old 2010-05-31, 13:41   Link #81
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I have an opinion of people who even *use* the word "slut".
Petty much this. I have no problem at all with the term being used in a positive way - reclaiming words is awesome. But other than that... no.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:16   Link #82
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Saying this from a long time let me repeat Cacophony of human nature which is true for both sexes . Slut & Stud
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:32   Link #83
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
While I don't think Japanese high schoolers necessarily wear skirts as short as those in some anime, I have heard that high school girls in Japan tend to wear their skirts shorter than middle/junior high girls. The girls in the picture you link are the latter. I don't know if what I've heard is correct but maybe one of our Japanese members can weigh in on it.
I thought that only kogals and similar fashion-minded girls pinned their skirts up high? Other than that, the skirts are around knee length.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:48   Link #84
MikaMiaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I have an opinion of people who even *use* the word "slut". I'll not embarrass you by firing it off here because it looks pretty self-evident that the word sits far too high in your vocabulary index. Might want to work on that....

Mystique pretty much has stated thoughts on the subject that match my own so I won't reiterate them.
May bad. You can see I was using it in its satirical form though? I know what you mean though. I don't like the word that begins with a C for a certain female body part and it irks me a lot too. The S word I didn't know was off limits -- it's said on TV -- so I assume it's okay here.

But I will refrain to abide by the general taste of the forum.
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Old 2010-05-31, 21:49   Link #85
Lost Cause
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Saw the video, and if my 10yr old daughter came home and said that her and some of her girlfriends were going to do something similar, I'd be rational enough to look into it and get involved. But if said group told me they would be wearin similar outfits my response would be "Not on your f**king life!"
Yeah, I'm old fashioned in so far as raisein MY kids and would rather they not learn "Sex 101" from their friends or TV. But kids nowadays are bombarded with sexual innuendos on all fronts and there ain't much I can do about it, but stay informed and talk with them about it!
The danceing was good, the costumes were a frightening mistake! That's my opinion!
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Old 2010-06-01, 04:02   Link #86
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komari View Post
I thought that only kogals and similar fashion-minded girls pinned their skirts up high? Other than that, the skirts are around knee length.
Define "similar fahsiong-minded girls." I was under the impression that pinning skirts up was a pretty popular fashion in Japan for a while, although I've heard it's becoming less popular. But again, I really think one of our Japanese members needs to weigh in on this.

Also, I know for me personally a girl needs to pin her skirt awfully high for me to think she's trying to attract that kind of attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Saw the video, and if my 10yr old daughter came home and said that her and some of her girlfriends were going to do something similar, I'd be rational enough to look into it and get involved. But if said group told me they would be wearin similar outfits my response would be "Not on your f**king life!"
I'm finding I have a bit of an interesting dichotomy in my reaction. In regards to people letting their own kids participate, my basic response is that I think the offended parties should chill out. Yet if my own daughter wanted to get involved, my response would basically be the same as yours. I guess that's just a matter of that I'd feel more protective of my own kids.
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Old 2010-06-01, 04:53   Link #87
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
But kids nowadays are bombarded with sexual innuendos on all fronts and there ain't much I can do about it, but stay informed and talk with them about it!
Wholesomeness is so uncool these days, isn't it? Hayao Miyazaki's original proposal for Whisper of the Heart expressed a strong desire to show the audience "how wonderful the quality of wholesomeness is", how right he was. I can take the overreaction/puritanism accusations all day, because that quality is something worth preserving, even if it's a losing battle. I suppose I'm "old fashioned" too, as much as a 20 year old can be old-fashioned.
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Old 2010-06-01, 05:25   Link #88
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It's actually rather ironic when you consider both the groups who attack animated depictions of child-like characters and those that protect it as freedoms, as compared to those who are aghast at these videos and those who think these are morally acceptable.

Pray tell what exactly what we should be protecting our children against these days when no one seems to agree anymore.
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Old 2010-06-01, 05:35   Link #89
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There was an issue today in my country's news, where some dudes where using chat rooms to fish 15yo girls to participate in porn films. Their hook was "Everybody does it on tv, why not you? And if you are already doing it for fun, why not be payed for it?"

Besides the whole underage thing, the girls who would accept to do it would be those
a) interested in money
b) already experienced
c) cynical to morality and ethics and stuff

All of which because the tv and the internet tell us that everybody does from a young age, so it's normal. Or that's what the ones biting the lure are supposed to think. So we cannot blame someone specifically as we are all in this mess. I believe most men are against this sort of thing yet most WOULD buy such a film in secret.

Wait, this is not about porn, right? No, it's about dancing erotically from a tender age on tv. Same issue, albeit far less serious. Today they dance, tomorrow they... what?

And as I said earlier, today's children are forced to learn and grow up very fast as they are afraid of being cast aside as lame or useless or something.
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Old 2010-06-01, 06:03   Link #90
Lost Cause
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@roriconfan,@MeoTwister4,@Theowne: Basically you guys hit the nail on the head! Y'all said in one fashion or another that if you see it on TV or the Internet the it's cool. And that is sadly true unfortunately! It's no longer art imitating life, but rather life imitating art!
All I can say is that if and when you are ever blessed with children raise them to your own morals and standards! Don't be influenced by others or by what's the current popular notion. And above all don't let the "popular" or the "clique" people dictate how you raise your kids!! In other words, they're your kids and your resposibility, raise them the way YOU want too!
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Old 2010-06-01, 06:24   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
@roriconfan,@MeoTwister4,@Theowne: Basically you guys hit the nail on the head! Y'all said in one fashion or another that if you see it on TV or the Internet the it's cool. And that is sadly true unfortunately! It's no longer art imitating life, but rather life imitating art!
All I can say is that if and when you are ever blessed with children raise them to your own morals and standards! Don't be influenced by others or by what's the current popular notion. And above all don't let the "popular" or the "clique" people dictate how you raise your kids!! In other words, they're your kids and your resposibility, raise them the way YOU want too!
Well in the end it's really about how you want to raise your kids. Personally while I wouldn't want my kids to dress like a $50 corner hooker, I wouldn't want them to dress like a cloistered nun either.
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Old 2010-06-01, 06:30   Link #92
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
@roriconfan,@MeoTwister4,@Theowne: Basically you guys hit the nail on the head! Y'all said in one fashion or another that if you see it on TV or the Internet the it's cool. And that is sadly true unfortunately! It's no longer art imitating life, but rather life imitating art!
All I can say is that if and when you are ever blessed with children raise them to your own morals and standards! Don't be influenced by others or by what's the current popular notion. And above all don't let the "popular" or the "clique" people dictate how you raise your kids!! In other words, they're your kids and your resposibility, raise them the way YOU want too!
Actually being a beginner-level trader, I am glad parents raise their kids like this. When they grow up and start following the crowd into fear and greed, I can always hedge the other direction for profits. Their number is directly proportional to my profits : the more there are, the more money I make.

Seriously though, I would prefer to say that the parents want the best for their kids, but bad results like this tend to be paved by good intentions. How would you like it if your kid is ostracised for being a geek or a nerd, and despite being smarter, he had no friends and is always bullied in school, therefore missing his childhood and teenage years overall? It is neither great in anyway whether he/she runs a Columbine or commits suicide due to being like this.

Yeah. Our world is screwed up. It takes real guts to be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well in the end it's really about how you want to raise your kids. Personally while I wouldn't want my kids to dress like a $50 corner hooker, I wouldn't want them to dress like a cloistered nun either.
Cloistered nuns have appeals too! Ever watched Seikon no Quasar?
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Old 2010-06-01, 17:10   Link #93
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
@roriconfan,@MeoTwister4,@Theowne: Basically you guys hit the nail on the head! Y'all said in one fashion or another that if you see it on TV or the Internet the it's cool. And that is sadly true unfortunately! It's no longer art imitating life, but rather life imitating art!
All I can say is that if and when you are ever blessed with children raise them to your own morals and standards! Don't be influenced by others or by what's the current popular notion. And above all don't let the "popular" or the "clique" people dictate how you raise your kids!! In other words, they're your kids and your resposibility, raise them the way YOU want too!
This is the problem of the modern world, no one is willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, if your child chooses to do this and as a parent you don't say anything you don't educate them, then you have failed. It's ridiculous how terrible parents go off on media and products targeted at adults and lay the blame solely on those things as the immoral when you have broken homes filled with adulterous people. The point is stop laying claim to morality, the fact of the matter boils down to terrible parenting, and continual blindness to this will lead to cretins being raised. As long as parents continue to use the media as teaching tool for their children and park them infront of the tv as soon as they get home, the sooner those people should be relieved of their children. It's assinine to just spout morality when people aren't even willing to take responsibility for their children.
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Old 2010-06-01, 19:35   Link #94
dragon4dudes
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No matter how vulgar, how disgusting, how disturbing the dance may or may not be, they dance better than most people. They can at least bring out the energy. The dancers in my high school dance class couldn't wow me as much as these children did. I was bored of watching the high school dance show as soon as it started.

Also, Pedobear probably funded this dance.
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Old 2010-06-01, 19:36   Link #95
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz
This is the problem of the modern world, no one is willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, if your child chooses to do this and as a parent you don't say anything you don't educate them, then you have failed. ...
I believe the end-game is Idiocracy.... ymmv on how close you think the citizenry is to that state of existence. That movie was intended to be funny and dystopian... but mostly I found it expressed the rapidly emerging "now".
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Old 2010-06-01, 20:14   Link #96
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Wait, this is not about porn, right? No, it's about dancing erotically from a tender age on tv. Same issue, albeit far less serious. Today they dance, tomorrow they... what?
Well, Mystique seems to be the member here most familiar with the subculture in question, so Iíll quote her:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Performance is just that, you take on a role and perform for the moment, but outside of it, depending on how they were raised, they'll be normal girls, doing school stuff and having fun.
Mystique can correct me if Iím wrong here, but thereís an implicit argument in this that if they have a normal upbringing, theyíll turn out normal. Which makes sense, since she also talks about how the dancers she knew growing up didnít really pay much attention to the suggestive lyrics and such. Iím basically getting that kids and parents involved in this subculture donít see the same sexual connotations that some people in this thread are seeing.

This doesnít surprise me. I imagine that some people would be absolutely mortified to learn that Iíve seen fifteen year old girls cosplay characters from erotic game derived anime at conventions. But having actually become a con buddy of sorts to a pair of (then) 15 year old twins who did such cosplay, I get the impression that they didnít see it as a particularly sexual thing. Nor do I think their mother Ė enough of an anime fan herself to know the origins of the characters Ė saw it as being particularly sexual. And of course, I as a cosplay photographer aware of the characterís origins didnít see it as particularly sexual and I imagine the same would be true of most of my peers. If some outsider where to argue to me that girls who cosplay characters from erogame derived anime are more likely to be promiscuous or some such, Iíd tell them they simply donít understand the subculture theyíre talking about Ė and Iím pretty darn sure Iíd be right.

In either case, I wouldnít call the connotations irrelevant, but implying that girls that do either are more likely to participate in underage porn is hyperbole in my opinion.

And when people go attaching their own connotations to how people act in a subculture, the results can occasionally get nasty. I remember own Counter-Strike player in a Texas high school getting in a whole heap of trouble for making a CS map of his school. Now, making maps of locations you know is pretty much standard practice for beginning mappers, and as any CSer will tell you, the game is about armed conflict, not shooting civilians. Itís not like the kid was inserting his other students into the game as target practice (in fact, he wasnít inserting other students into the game at all). But of course, parents and administrators not familiar with the norms of the subculture in question interpreted it as ďOMG next Columbine copycatĒ and went nuts.

So yeah, I think I have more than a little reason to be worried about people applying their own connotations to subcultures they arenít part of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
I believe most men are against this sort of thing yet most WOULD buy such a film in secret.
I guess I have a high opinion of the average man then you then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
It's actually rather ironic when you consider both the groups who attack animated depictions of child-like characters and those that protect it as freedoms, as compared to those who are aghast at these videos and those who think these are morally acceptable.

Pray tell what exactly what we should be protecting our children against these days when no one seems to agree anymore.
Iím against censoring both the depictions and the video, so I consider my position consistent. Doesnít mean Iím not allow to have negative opinions about both, which I also have.

But to tell the truth, my biggest beef with the anti-lolicon crowd is the fact that they always portray the issue as being about depictions of prepubescent girls when pretty much every single law Iíve seen concerning lolicon goes after material featuring characters who look ďunder 18Ē. At that point, itís isnít just about fighting pedophilia anymore, thereís some mission creep going on.
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Old 2010-06-02, 00:18   Link #97
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon4dudes View Post
No matter how vulgar, how disgusting, how disturbing the dance may or may not be, they dance better than most people. They can at least bring out the energy. The dancers in my high school dance class couldn't wow me as much as these children did. I was bored of watching the high school dance show as soon as it started.

Also, Pedobear probably funded this dance.
true, but they coulda done a better dance that isnt as "Disturbing"
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Old 2010-06-02, 00:29   Link #98
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon4dudes View Post
No matter how vulgar, how disgusting, how disturbing the dance may or may not be, they dance better than most people. They can at least bring out the energy. The dancers in my high school dance class couldn't wow me as much as these children did. I was bored of watching the high school dance show as soon as it started.
^This. No matter how much you want to bash these girls, you can't deny their technique; they are seriously talented. The talent just went the wrong way.
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Old 2010-06-02, 01:32   Link #99
Urzu 7
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Bash the girls? I think those speaking out against this are thinking of how the adults that coordinated this thing failed. The girls can dance great, but that is capsized by the problems.

Like the poster above you said, they could have had the girls do a great dance without the controversial elements.
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Old 2010-06-02, 06:13   Link #100
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Mystique can correct me if I’m wrong here, but there’s an implicit argument in this that if they have a normal upbringing, they’ll turn out normal. Which makes sense, since she also talks about how the dancers she knew growing up didn’t really pay much attention to the suggestive lyrics and such. I’m basically getting that kids and parents involved in this subculture don’t see the same sexual connotations that some people in this thread are seeing.
Appreciated, but you'll have to give me the weekend when I get a chance to breathe before I can take into account some of the latest posts in here and continue off what you've said.

To CuXe who sniped on me cause I turned flippant in page 1 by saying that this dance != these girls spreading their legs for a dick in years to come, may also wanna check out the latest implications that I'm seeing here.
It takes no genius to figure out what the 'worst' impression from this video would be, hence I reacted off of it, even if no one in Asuki itself typed it at the time.
(this being a week ago though)
It was the general outcry from the article, the youtube comments and other opinions that I was basing my post off, if you wanted 'evidence', back then.

"There's gyrating in the video with kids under 10."
"Oh my gosh, future strippers and whores, call 911, somebody!!!?"

Quote:
The point is stop laying claim to morality, the fact of the matter boils down to terrible parenting, and continual blindness to this will lead to cretins being raised. As long as parents continue to use the media as teaching tool for their children and park them infront of the tv as soon as they get home, the sooner those people should be relieved of their children. It's assinine to just spout morality when people aren't even willing to take responsibility for their children.
@ Nosauz
- My dad specifally parked me in front of the TV, I grew up on cartoons of the 80's and 90's and was addicted to TV until about 19 when I grew out of US shows and teen stuff.
As a result of my cartoon addiction, it transpired to anime as well along the way. I was influenced a lot by the media (namely American, Nickelodian and the rest), should my parents have had me taken away then?
Or don't you think that along with the exposure and fight against the media and mainstream that morals and values are instilled in other practices within a home that does give a child some balance, despite their hobbies.
- I'm definitely not disputing you on the lack of discipline (personally, I think a clip around the ear would sort most kids out) xD - or responsibility that seems to be more evident recently but that's another issue, however dance, singing, TV, computer game wise, depending on how the household of that child is run, none of us can say for sure that these kids are being 'damaged', nor are most gonna imitate what they played off GTA after spending numerous hours on it during their youth.
Video wise, the kids were exploited to some degree given the outfits, yes, but dance wise, there are no qualms.
They could have done something 'less intense' but I'm sure there are other groups who probably did, we just haven't seen them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
true, but they coulda done a better dance that isnt as "Disturbing"
"Disturbing" how?
If you're specifically addressing the dance now, detail how it raises goosebumps for you.
As I said in my posts earlier in this thread, I don't mind if people feel umcomfy with this style, but specify what exactly you think is 'wrong', dance wise.

Also food for thought for you guys while I head back to lurksville.
If these girls were:
1: Black
2: Same age
3: Had normal casual clothes on
4: Mimicked more of Beyonce's video and moves with less of the ballet work
- Would people still be screaming bloody murder in here?

Just Mystique's personal curiousity, while she now drags herself away from the keyboard for writing too damn much. ><;;;;

Edit:
You know what?
Let the videos do the talking for me in addition to my question
Two are in spoilers for 'space' but I'll leave the 8 year old's video of the same song (similar moves) open. The quality isn't great for this one, but the girl's still got some grooves in her. ^^


11 year old dancing to the same song, she will probably become professional at the rate she's going, esp in this vid.
(And I promise you, she didn't begin at 11, most likely, similar to me, she has been dancing 'casually' since she was a kid, throwing off similar moves within the urban music subculture)
Spoiler:


And for the 'aww so cute factor', a 1 year old shaking her thang to the same tune.
Spoiler:

Now the chances that these three girls will become 'sluts', 'prostitutes' or 'loose' or 'without morals' because of a dance with moves that are considered by some as 'mature', kinda feels highly unlikely.
This is of course probably part of their daily lives, instead of being on a stage for a national dance competition with make up and attire which was tacky, but the moves, the training, the effort and the styles would be similar practices for all of the kids.
How those girls live at home and are raised, none of us know for sure to be able to make judgements that their parents are bring downfall on them all.
Rather go, hunt down the stylist if we're looking for a scapegoat...

Rather seeing them (esp the 11 year old) just brings back major nostalgia for me, I should boogie around the kitchen more often tbh
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Last edited by Mystique; 2010-06-02 at 07:40.
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