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Old 2010-06-02, 05:44   Link #1681
Lost Cause
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You've made your point Gordy! Time move on too a new subject! Why don't you tell us what you like about Shirley?
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Old 2010-06-02, 06:17   Link #1682
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Indeed. It states very clearly you can't flame a character or another character on this thread. Since it's breaking the rules I will report it nevertheless.

I admire Shirley, she was a very strong person. Being able to forgive takes time, especially in her case. Either she is incredibly dim or she is incredibly innocent. I think it's the latter. Code Geass needed more characters like that. That or they needed a certain liar.

I like Rolo, talking to Roloko influenced me on the reality of his situation. It's very, very easy to hate a character. It's difficult trying to understand them. Most of the time anyways.

I rest my case: We're all different birds under the same sky; Some people hate bluebirds, some hate crows. Listen carefully; you won't be able to dislike them if you listen to their odes.

Metaphorically and poetically speaking of course.


I'd imagine Rolo and Shirley getting along just fine in a normal world. They did actually, and they would have continued in a world without geass. Not so fortunate though.

I'm certain Shirley didn't hate Rolo in the end. I wouldn't either. What I hate is geass; the source of the problem. Well... a good deal of the problem anyways.

That's about it from me.
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Old 2010-06-02, 12:29   Link #1683
Gordy Lechance
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
You've made your point Gordy! Time move on too a new subject! Why don't you tell us what you like about Shirley?
Well, as stated in two or three posts previous, I have a fondness and respect for genuinely nice and kind hearted human beings, whose idealistic hearts are uncontaminated by cynicism and selfishness.

Shirley-chan qualifies for all these virtues, in a sweet as apple pie and huggable as a teddy bear package, with a smile so cute that if can probably stop the rampaging-charge of a male South-African elephant in heat.

Point in fact, just started working on a Shirley-chan piece of fanart with the help of two splendid softwares: Photoshop 4 and Painter 9.5.

Gimme another 9 days (real-life commitents stink!!) and rather than just tell, I'll also show why she (along with Nunnally-chan, also in the artwork) has all my love.
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Old 2010-06-02, 12:38   Link #1684
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Well, as stated in two or three posts previous, I have a fondness and respect for genuinely nice and kind hearted human beings
Well, I'd like to think that this is true for most people in this forum. However, I feel the need to point out that fictional characters != actual human beings. Someone can like characters they'd detest in real life, and the other way round.

Anyway, I agree that Shirley is awesome.
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Old 2010-06-02, 14:57   Link #1685
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
I like Rolo, talking to Roloko influenced me on the reality of his situation. It's very, very easy to hate a character. It's difficult trying to understand them. Most of the time anyways.

I rest my case: We're all different birds under the same sky; Some people hate bluebirds, some hate crows. Listen carefully; you won't be able to dislike them if you listen to their odes.

Metaphorically and poetically speaking of course.
I'd say just about the exact opposite: it's very easy to either 'hate' or 'understand' a character, so long as that's what the author wants you to do. They can easily set up various situations to portray a character in either a negative or positive light, and if you don't take the time to stop and think about what's happening for yourself, it's incredibly easy to simply go with the flow and believe what the author tells you you 'should' be thinking. I can't even count the number of shallow viewers who only began to 'miss' Shirley after her death, or who 'decided' then that Rolo was hateful and evil, only to turn right around and start 'missing' him too right after his death scene.

Making/allowing you to feel empathy for dubious individuals is one of the most basic functions of fiction. It's a step beyond black and white 'good vs. evil' narratives which blatantly shill an ideology, but no less artificial.

Personally, I never blamed Rolo for Shirley's death. I never hated him; I blamed Sunrise, right from the start. It's just that I never liked him either, and Sunrise's similarly manipulative efforts to 'redeem' him only exasperated that issue.

Quote:
I'd imagine Rolo and Shirley getting along just fine in a normal world. They did actually, and they would have continued in a world without geass. Not so fortunate though.

I'm certain Shirley didn't hate Rolo in the end. I wouldn't either. What I hate is geass; the source of the problem. Well... a good deal of the problem anyways.
:P As far as this goes, I wouldn't hate geass either. The thing about saying Shirley and Rolo 'got along' though is that this was pretty much entirely from Shirley's end. Rolo never showed a hint of affection for her, geass or not. Shirley may not have held any resentment for Rolo at the end, but that is only a reflection of her own character, who decided what she needed to speak to Lelouch about was love and reincarnation instead. This doesn't change the reality that Rolo still utterly lacked remorse for her by the time he stepped out of this series, which deeply calls into question whether he deserved any of that 'forgiveness'.

Quote:
I admire Shirley, she was a very strong person. Being able to forgive takes time, especially in her case. Either she is incredibly dim or she is incredibly innocent. I think it's the latter. Code Geass needed more characters like that. That or they needed a certain liar.
To focus on just Shirley to conclude. I don't believe Shirley's 'forgiveness' is as simple as you are portraying it. To be honest, I never saw Shirley's defining feature to be just her innocence anyway. In the first season, one of the things which drew me most into her 'arc' with her father's death and the Mao fiasco was how Shirley's love forced her to confront her innocence. We are given the chance to see so clearly how Shirley thinks killing is wrong, how stealing a kiss is wrong, how wanting the kindness of a terrorist is wrong. These things are Shirley's innocence, her insular world, her simplistic knowledge of good and evil, which Mao takes advantage of to use and torture her. But you know, Mao came after the fact, and the truth is Shirley did shoot somebody (out of love), desire the kindness of an enemy to her country (out of love), even steal a kiss over the metaphorical grave of her father (out of love). At the conclusion of her S1 arc, you can say that it is Shirley's innocence, her rejection of 'sin', which pushes her towards her own death and Lelouch's; while it is her love, instead, which allows Shirley to reconcile and begin to accept him (a reconciliation Lelouch thoughtlessly cut short).

Thus in R2, when Shirley gets her memories back, it is not her 'innocence' which allows her to forgive Lelouch. Hell, the way things went at first, you could possibly say Shirley's 'innocence' nearly reported Lelouch/Zero to Suzaku. Shirley's forgiveness was born from her love for him, her love in two ways: first was her assurance in Lelouch's heart, what he truly valued and wanted beyond the mask of being a terrorist responsible for the death of millions, which he revealed to her when he told her "I don't want to lose anything anymore". The second way in which Shirley's love compelled her to forgive him was in its perception of Lelouch's loneliness, of Lelouch's abandonment and separation from all the people important to him, of Lelouch's oppression and struggle to protect them against enemies from all corners. For such a Lelouch at that time, if Shirley wouldn't forgive him, then who would?
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Old 2010-06-02, 15:10   Link #1686
Arbitres
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I really don't feel like elaborating on what I meant and said, and I personally like my answers. I also like yours since they highlight the flaws of my answers. I agree with what you mostly say; though I remain on my 'blaming the environment of the character' and 'geass'.

I respect what you mean by that. Her forgiveness wasn't as simple as I made it out to be because I purposely made it simple on the basis to end the current conflict at that moment. I echo what you say on some degree, but I still keep to myself on this.

The 'redeeming Rolo' part... I won't touch on.
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Old 2010-06-02, 16:03   Link #1687
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Point in fact, just started working on a Shirley-chan piece of fanart with the help of two splendid softwares: Photoshop 4 and Painter 9.5.

Gimme another 9 days (real-life commitents stink!!) and rather than just tell, I'll also show why she (along with Nunnally-chan, also in the artwork) has all my love.
Ooh, that sounds good. Lookin' forward to it

Anyway, on the subject of Rolo and Shirley's death, I'm really not inclined to blame the "environment" or the "geass" for her death. We can't always blame a person's upbringing or their environment, and the geass is just a tool (well, debatably). At some point we all have to be held accountable for our actions. I believe I've stated it before, but I'll say it again that Rolo killed Shirley out of his own free will. Yes, his morals may have been messed up, but it's not like he was brainwashed or forced to do it. It was entirely his choice.
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Old 2010-06-02, 18:22   Link #1688
Lost Cause
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Well, as stated in two or three posts previous, I have a fondness and respect for genuinely nice and kind hearted human beings, whose idealistic hearts are uncontaminated by cynicism and selfishness.

Shirley-chan qualifies for all these virtues, in a sweet as apple pie and huggable as a teddy bear package, with a smile so cute that if can probably stop the rampaging-charge of a male South-African elephant in heat.

Point in fact, just started working on a Shirley-chan piece of fanart with the help of two splendid softwares: Photoshop 4 and Painter 9.5.

Gimme another 9 days (real-life commitents stink!!) and rather than just tell, I'll also show why she (along with Nunnally-chan, also in the artwork) has all my love.
YES! Much better Gordy!
Now I for one do not have a problem with a posters stating their opinion or getting emotional over a character. But foul language or tryin to start a fight is a no-no!
In any event, I'm definetly lookin forward to your fanart of Shirley and Nunnally!
And welcome to the Shirley thread!
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:54   Link #1689
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Ooh, that sounds good. Lookin' forward to it

Anyway, on the subject of Rolo and Shirley's death, I'm really not inclined to blame the "environment" or the "geass" for her death. We can't always blame a person's upbringing or their environment, and the geass is just a tool (well, debatably). At some point we all have to be held accountable for our actions. I believe I've stated it before, but I'll say it again that Rolo killed Shirley out of his own free will. Yes, his morals may have been messed up, but it's not like he was brainwashed or forced to do it. It was entirely his choice.
Yeah. Lelouch told Rolo at least twice that he "shouldn't behave that way" on the suggestion of killing. And one of those times concerned Suzaku friggin' Kururugi, so the whole trying to protect Lelouch excuse for killing Shirley didn't fly.

Still, it's just too bad that Lelouch hadn't yet taught Rolo the value of treating other people well.
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Old 2010-06-11, 17:11   Link #1690
Chupps
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Likes:
1) As a person she's all round nice & like-able.
2) Is able to forgive alot of things
3) Funny at times
4) Member of the swim team
5) Saved Zero in R1

Dislikes:
1) Constantly got in the way of Lelouch emotionally
2) Has a tendency to snoop or delve deeper into things which led to her death
3) Paranoid / Jelous
4) Weak in most aspects: emotionally, mentally & physically

Overall i thought Shirley was necessary in Lelouch's development but i didn't like her as a character. I didn't like the way she died, through Rolo's immaturity, but felt that too was necessary.
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Old 2010-06-11, 20:29   Link #1691
Sol Falling
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:P I have trouble understanding what you mean about Shirley getting in the way of Lelouch emotionally. Getting in the way of what? If you follow Lelouch's emotional development to the end of the series, it's more like Shirley guided and supported him rather than getting his way. Shirley was the one who helped Lelouch realize what he really wanted and had all along (Turn 7), and she also taught him how to believe in the hearts and feelings of people (Turn 11). Without what Shirley did for Lelouch emotionally, Lelouch wouldn't even understand what happiness is, and the good intentions behind Zero Requiem wouldn't exist--in the face of his meaningless revenge and rebellion against Britannia, as he finally realized in Turn 22, Lelouch really wouldn't have been anything but meaningless noise. Lelouch's emotions for Shirley (among other characters) represent everything good about his character, so if his feelings for her ever got in the way of anything, then those things weren't good or necessary in the first place.
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Old 2010-06-11, 20:51   Link #1692
Arbitres
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Spoiler for Respectfully perspective.:
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Old 2010-06-11, 21:19   Link #1693
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I'm... kinda stumped at how Shirley's supposed to be mentally and physically weak. Is she mentally weak because she's not as crazy-intelligent as Lelouch? No. Is she physically weak because she's not as super strong or as super fast as Suzaku? No...
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Old 2010-06-12, 10:39   Link #1694
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Physically Shirley is much stronger then Lelouch. Mentally? She is a normal girl in aspect of mental health.
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Old 2010-06-12, 11:51   Link #1695
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And therefore ahead of the game compared to a good deal of the other characters since she's not unstable.
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Old 2010-06-12, 17:58   Link #1696
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Mentally weak because she was so easily manipulated & had hallucinations as well as attempting to commit suicide while hallucinating. You could excuse this by blaming it on how she was abused by Geass. Physically i guess i use the military as a compass, unfair, yes, but i do. Lelouch is frail.
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Old 2010-06-12, 18:15   Link #1697
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Mentally weak because she was so easily manipulated & had hallucinations as well as attempting to commit suicide while hallucinating. You could excuse this by blaming it on how she was abused by Geass. Physically i guess i use the military as a compass, unfair, yes, but i do. Lelouch is frail.
Oooh, wow. Easily manipulated by a person who can hear every single thought you make no matter what you do. Everyone who comes near Mao is subject to manipulation. Lelouch is no exception to this rule. He even states outright that its easy as hell to manipulate someone if you can hear their every thought.
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Old 2010-06-12, 19:07   Link #1698
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It seemed out of all his targets she succumbed to his will entirely, to the point that she would commit murder+suicide. Seemed a bit extreme to me.
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Old 2010-06-12, 19:18   Link #1699
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It seemed out of all his targets she succumbed to his will entirely, to the point that she would commit murder+suicide. Seemed a bit extreme to me.
So you're saying everyone who had just had their father killed, their secret love accused of being a terrorist, and essentially their entire world turned upside down in only a few days would not succumb to the machinations of a man who can read your every thought, and therefore easily know what you'll do and how to counter it with more machinations?

You give average humans far too much credit. The only ones who didn't get an epic mindfuck from Mao was one person with a mind that was already far more intelligent than the average person's, and another person who was completely immune to his power.

And even then that extremely intelligent person had his share of trouble with Mao. You're being too biased here: you can't can't use one gifted individual as a standard for regular people. Not in Code Geass.
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Old 2010-06-12, 19:44   Link #1700
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Mao was twisted because of his geass. He could pluck a thought - any thought - out of the victim's mind and twist it, completely pervert it and use it against them. What do you fear? What do you love? How much do you know? Everyone is literally an open book.

Shirley was an average teenage girl. Just a student living life. Asking her to have mental fortitude is a bit unfair considering she is one of the MOST normal characters in the entire show.

If she wasn't so uncertain about so many things during the time; I'd say manipulating her would have been less easy as it was.
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