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Old 2004-09-08, 01:01   Link #61
yinstro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
Great. Whenever you face certain death, or almost certain death, you would use the pill and increase your chances. Apart from that, anything that makes you 100x times as strong as before sounds cheesy to me, no matter the consequences. Every move that allows you to take on someone who is way stronger than you is unbalanced. Imagine there was a move that would allow Konohamaru to kill Itachi, however, he would die afterwards. Sounds cheap, doesn't it? Now imagine he actually didn't have to die, there was just a chance he'd have to. Extremely cheesy. Obviously, the pill is not that bad ... but it's quite bad as well.
So far in Naruto, everyone who used a move similar to that faced dire consequences, Lee got beaten up by Dosu, Sarutobi was killed and spends eternity in the Death God's belly, and the other time Lee used the Gates, he got beaten up and crippled. It would be cheap if Chouji managed to take out someone who was simply way stronger than him, without even dying. The scene was bad enough as is. Huh? You simply have to eat a lot of food. It's not that hard to get fat. Surely, it would take months, probably a year at most, but if you really intend to get as fat as fast as possible it shouldn't take two years.
Chouji didn't believe in himself in the end? I just don't think so. In the end, he pretty much proved his own worth (by taking the cheap and cheesy pill).

you mistake chouji, the pill is the ninjutsu of his clan, they way they eat and who knows what else is training to be able to handle these type of food pills, these pills are part of their skills or strength. You really have no idea if chouji was training to use the pills, or if the mere fact he was able to use it so long speaks to his training. Maybe his father can use each pill more easily and for longer because of training. Basically the pill is part of his abilities as a ninja, its teh secret and skill of his clan.
and to get seriously obese takes some time. a move you have to train for a year to use and will cause you serious bodily damage is hardly a technique that will ensure you a fight or whatever, and really his opponent did the same exact thing only his technique wont kill him. why is cursed seal better than a food pill?

as far as chouji being useless to the story sure he is if you make him that way, but what charachter in this series serves any purpose other than naruto and sasuke? everyone else can be replaced, should we kill them all to develop teh story or should we develop the charachters to develop the story?
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Old 2004-09-08, 03:16   Link #62
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Damn lol, I leave for one day and 4 pages pop up on this thread. Well everyone makes a good point. I was always confused on what the butterfly ment, but thats somewhat cleared up now. Also the part about chouji seeing the arrow and realizing that his friends beleived in him gives the oppertunity for him to die. I personally would like to see a skinny chouji being hit on by ino, but that might be too much to ask for
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Old 2004-09-08, 05:00   Link #63
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I hope, for the sake of the series, Choji and Neji are dead. Nejitotally went all out to win the fight and has nothing left. The only way those 2 can possibly survive is if Tsunade appears ( or say Kakashi runs into them both and somehow manages to take them to Tsunade).
The reason the Naruto series is good is because characters DIE. In my opinion a great anime is one that is not afraid to kill off secondary and main characters, thus defying the cliche and expectation of the viewers. Those of you who have watched COWBOY BEBOP will probably understand me best. I freakin hate cartoons when no main or secondary character dies, wats the point of watching if you know in the end everything is going to be fine and dandy? That's why DBZ got lame after awhile-- I say awhile because admit it you all, it was awesome at first seeing all those fireballs and guys powering up-- the main characters did not die. I mean shit, when Goku "died" you still see him in heaven messing around and having a good time and even then they can wish him back.
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Old 2004-09-08, 05:33   Link #64
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Tsunade ... or maybe Shizune ? is she still in the woods ?
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Old 2004-09-08, 08:54   Link #65
Anthriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireBorn


WTF is Konohamaru going to do as an academy student even with 100x Chakra? Sexy no Jutsu him to death?
I wonder why bother to answer this ... IF there was a jutsu that would allow Konohamaru to beat Itachi at the cost of his life, the jutsu WOULD be "teh cheese". The pill Chouji used was a weaker version, just regular cheese.

Quote:
you mistake chouji, the pill is the ninjutsu of his clan, they way they eat and who knows what else is training to be able to handle these type of food pills, these pills are part of their skills or strength. You really have no idea if chouji was training to use the pills, or if the mere fact he was able to use it so long speaks to his training. Maybe his father can use each pill more easily and for longer because of training. Basically the pill is part of his abilities as a ninja, its teh secret and skill of his clan.
As far as we know, the Akimichi pills are used like regular soldier pills, though they consume your body's fat and thus strain your body, for greater power. Training in taking pills sounds dumb to me ... of course, we don't know, but then again, Konohamaru could be the leader of Akatsuki as well.

Quote:
as far as chouji being useless to the story sure he is if you make him that way, but what charachter in this series serves any purpose other than naruto and sasuke? everyone else can be replaced, should we kill them all to develop teh story or should we develop the charachters to develop the story?
It doesn't really matter if it's good to kill minor characters or not, the real question is, is it dumb to show characters in a near death scene, and later on pull off a deus ex machina? Obviously, Naruto is a shounen, therefore any lame thing can happen, and the fans will continue to call it brilliant. Apparantly, there are people out there, who think Kishimoto's storytelling is actually good, or Naruto is a work of art. I know, it sounds ridiculos, but there are some people out there who really believe that. Kids, most likely.

Now, to show you the problems of the jutsu that give you great power at the cost of your life, think about following situation. Let's assume Lee manages to gain the ability to open the eight Gates while he is still a Genin. That would mean: No Genin, Chuunin or Jounin would ever dare to challenge him, or to attack him. Even the Sannin and Kages would be careful about fighting him, as he could fight them equally, even as a Genin. Life sounds like a high price to pray, but normaly, if Lee were to fight a Jounin, he would die, without a chance to even harm him. If he can use the Death Gate though, he could kill the Jounin. Surely, he would die as well, but at least he managed to take out an enemy. Therefore, no Jounin would attack him, as that would mean certain death. And that's exactly why those jutsus are cheap.

As for the Curse Seal, it's downsides are apparent (being a slave) and it is not even close to the power of the pills. It's cheese as well, but it's not as cheesy ... a little bit lower on cheese if Chouji dies, but nowhere near as cheese if Chouji lives on (and basically killed someone who was way more powerful than him for taking a pill and losing some pounds).
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Old 2004-09-08, 09:53   Link #66
yinstro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
I wonder why bother to answer this ... IF there was a jutsu that would allow Konohamaru to beat Itachi at the cost of his life, the jutsu WOULD be "teh cheese". The pill Chouji used was a weaker version, just regular cheese.

As far as we know, the Akimichi pills are used like regular soldier pills, though they consume your body's fat and thus strain your body, for greater power. Training in taking pills sounds dumb to me ... of course, we don't know, but then again, Konohamaru could be the leader of Akatsuki as well.

It doesn't really matter if it's good to kill minor characters or not, the real question is, is it dumb to show characters in a near death scene, and later on pull off a deus ex machina? Obviously, Naruto is a shounen, therefore any lame thing can happen, and the fans will continue to call it brilliant. Apparantly, there are people out there, who think Kishimoto's storytelling is actually good, or Naruto is a work of art. I know, it sounds ridiculos, but there are some people out there who really believe that. Kids, most likely.

Now, to show you the problems of the jutsu that give you great power at the cost of your life, think about following situation. Let's assume Lee manages to gain the ability to open the eight Gates while he is still a Genin. That would mean: No Genin, Chuunin or Jounin would ever dare to challenge him, or to attack him. Even the Sannin and Kages would be careful about fighting him, as he could fight them equally, even as a Genin. Life sounds like a high price to pray, but normaly, if Lee were to fight a Jounin, he would die, without a chance to even harm him. If he can use the Death Gate though, he could kill the Jounin. Surely, he would die as well, but at least he managed to take out an enemy. Therefore, no Jounin would attack him, as that would mean certain death. And that's exactly why those jutsus are cheap.

As for the Curse Seal, it's downsides are apparent (being a slave) and it is not even close to the power of the pills. It's cheese as well, but it's not as cheesy ... a little bit lower on cheese if Chouji dies, but nowhere near as cheese if Chouji lives on (and basically killed someone who was way more powerful than him for taking a pill and losing some pounds).
whats cheese? using an item passed on in your family fir generations, that requires you to have worked for at least a year for it to be effective? We have no idea the requirements or skills involved in teh technique. We do know its exclusive to the family of chouji. That kind of implies something about it is exclusive. A ninja isnt a regualr martial artist, a great deal of a ninjas skill relies on using tools and planning ahead. If a ninja is from a family of engineers, expect his best techniques to involve technology.

You love using teh term deus ex machina, but if this world is equal to us in technology even if the method is different, then its pretty hard to kill a person who gets medical attention, people with shattered spines, bullets in their skull, under water for 20 minutes. Believe it or not people can survive. Also as for its potential to kill him i doubt it was guaranteed to kill him, shikamaru knew about all the tablets, i dont think he'd call guaranteed death " a serious side effect" possible death yes guaranteed i doubt it. as well as the fact i doubt his pops would give him a suicide pill. remember choujis opinion about what would happen is based on a mentality that thinks hes worthless. You say its bad to show a "death scene" and not kill someone, but you decided it was a death scene, though he had no apparent wounds and no direct indication of death. in fact he apparently got up and walked far enough to see an arrow. You wanted him to die, hence you see it as a death scene.

as for downsides of the pill, it may kill you, and it is only effective if you have a large store of fat. so basically it isnt an end all move. If sasuke develops a technique where he has stab himself everyday for year, so he can use hypnosis tehnique that makes his opponet stab himself 365 times, but has to relive said pain, is that cheesy? i dunno depends how you see a thing.
As far as chouji serving no purpose, he is a charachter with a story and a potential, he can serve a purpose if hes not dead, only when he is dead will he serve little to no purpose

btw life is full of real life techniques that give you a great advantage if your willing to risk your life. from drugs to explosives. In fact just the decision in a fight that your willing to risk your life totally changes the fight.
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Old 2004-09-08, 10:01   Link #67
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I didn't bother to read whole thread but Chouji and Neji should die. Jounins are always telling about their killed-in-action comrades ( nakamas ). I like living Neji and Chouji but killed Neji and Chouji gives room to character growth.
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Last edited by Yoska; 2004-09-08 at 14:14.
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Old 2004-09-08, 10:13   Link #68
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anyhow, to the topic of the thread, i think if chouji does live he will probably be in a coma for sometime, or have long term effects from the pill use. if he is to be a butterfly, then he must have some time in teh cocoon. also his metabolism maybe seriously ruined or something similar, or he maybe dead, we ll see.

edit: btw someone referenced cowboy bebop. that had to be the most pointless death i seen. his death seems like more of kill the charachter to make you feel something type thing, also his only wound was and old one, blood loss as a cause of death in a room full of people in the future where people can travel to the stars, be woken up from cryogenic freezing and be turned into psychic killing machines. The only thing that makes sense for his death for me is reverse deus ex machina

Last edited by yinstro; 2004-09-08 at 10:23.
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Old 2004-09-08, 11:04   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoska
I didn't bother to read whole thread but Chouji and Neji should die. Jounin are always telling about their killed-in-action comrades ( nakamas ). I like living Neji and Chouji but killed Neji and Chouji gives room to character growth.
I've been thinking that too, we've all seen the monument to the dead heroes, and we see many of the older characters talking about the comrades they've lost. Maybe it's time Naruto had a reason to visit that monument too?
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Old 2004-09-08, 11:25   Link #70
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Please dont Compare Naruto to Cowboy Bebop....Naruto is an Series orientated for a more Younger audience,

so the day to day good guys normally dont die, simply because each character of this the viewer tend to get familiarize with...heck even tend to have them as a Favorite Character.....Neeji is the Fav. Character of a lot of people, and wath do you think these people will feel if they found out there fav. character is dead?

Chouji is a Comical relief, and usually these character also dont get killed....

I could be wrong...because im not the writer of the series, but im giving you the
basics of writing a LONG series. if you want Naruto to perdure as DB did (And i dont no about you, but i want it to perdure a LOT of YEARS), theres no point in Killing off every character that is not a Main Character......

Also dont say that the dead of chouji will make Shikamaru seek revenge...Shika is the most intelligent Character in the whole series, and a Shikamar Revenge is insulting his Intlligence
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Old 2004-09-08, 12:26   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
Also dont say that the dead of chouji will make Shikamaru seek revenge...Shika is the most intelligent Character in the whole series, and a Shikamar Revenge is insulting his Intlligence
How is Shikamaru seeking revenge insulting his intelligence? I wasn't talking about Shikamaru being totally absorbed/focused with revenge(like Sasuke), but more like very motivated to become stronger, so that when the opportunity presents itself he can get his revenge. Shikamaru focused on revenge, Sasuke style, to the exclusion of everything else, IMO, would be in insult to his intelligence. After all, I think he knows better than that.
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Old 2004-09-08, 13:07   Link #72
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I think it would be an insult to Shikamaru's intelligence to have him desire revenge against Sasuke for Chouji's death. Chouji's death as a motivator? Yes. In the sense that he wants to be strong enough, smart enough to prevent a member of his team dying in the future. In the sense that he wants to become a better leader. But I can't see Shikamaru blaming everyone else in the world for what happened, if anything he would blame himself, because he knew that leaving Chouji behind was not a good idea. He made that decision only because it was what Chouji wanted.
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Old 2004-09-08, 14:28   Link #73
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Exactly my point, his dead could be a Motivator of many things...
but,
a Shikamaru Wanting Revenge?......

Also..

When They mention thas the last Pill result in dead...we cant take this as somthing that will happen 100%, how many times havnet you heard this Line?.....

"If a do .......... Then it will be fatal(or i will defiinily die)

and at last instance the character does not die....i think that line is one of the most used in Naruto

Heck in the chunins 3rd prleminary exam it is done 2 times, once for HInata, an once for Rock lee, and their deads could have been good motivators for a lot of things to happen!
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Old 2004-09-08, 15:20   Link #74
Anthriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
I could be wrong...because im not the writer of the series, but im giving you the
basics of writing a LONG series. if you want Naruto to perdure as DB did (And i dont no about you, but i want it to perdure a LOT of YEARS), theres no point in Killing off every character that is not a Main Character......
You make it sound like there are not enough minor characters in Naruto, or like two dead ones will reduce their number significantly. There are actually loads of them, and the more there are, the less screentime every single one of them gets. What exactly do we know about TenTen, for example? I think killing of some of the old characters makes room for new ones as well. If you keep introducing new characters, with the old ones still around, the old ones get neglected, and would be better off dead anyway. Apart from that, if the minor characters get more screentime, the speed of the series will decrease, even though it is already sluggish. Due to all this battles in this arc, about one year real time equals one or two days in Naruto. That's probably a record, the slowest moving story in existance.
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Old 2004-09-08, 15:23   Link #75
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or it could ruin his descion making and turn him into a bar drunk afraid to make decsions ever again.

unlikely but your best friend getting killed rarely has any positive effects on people. i think like the guy says if your gonna write a long lasting manga, then you dont kill off yuor supporting charachters for making it "real" even bebop didnt kill any charachters till the end basically. Yea he coiuld kill chouji, but he could kill sakura or ino or kakashi. just cause he can doesnt mean its a good idea. yall people want people dead just to say people are dead. look naruto is hardcore they killed _____. i think its a cop out myself, to kill chars just cause they arent part of the main plotline right now
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Old 2004-09-08, 22:51   Link #76
Byakug@n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
Please dont Compare Naruto to Cowboy Bebop....Naruto is an Series orientated for a more Younger audience,

so the day to day good guys normally dont die, simply because each character of this the viewer tend to get familiarize with...heck even tend to have them as a Favorite Character.....Neeji is the Fav. Character of a lot of people, and wath do you think these people will feel if they found out there fav. character is dead?

Chouji is a Comical relief, and usually these character also dont get killed....

I could be wrong...because im not the writer of the series, but im giving you the
basics of writing a LONG series. if you want Naruto to perdure as DB did (And i dont no about you, but i want it to perdure a LOT of YEARS), theres no point in Killing off every character that is not a Main Character......

Also dont say that the dead of chouji will make Shikamaru seek revenge...Shika is the most intelligent Character in the whole series, and a Shikamar Revenge is insulting his Intlligence

Im not saying kill off every single main character and secondary character. Im saying that in order to HELP (keyword help) keep the plot interesting and flowing characters that as you say are "a fav of the people" need to do die. A twist here and there will make the series not bland.
Oh and there is no reason not to compare cowboy bebop and naruto. Both are great anime series, along with one piece and hajime no ippo.
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Old 2004-09-09, 00:49   Link #77
yinstro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
You make it sound like there are not enough minor characters in Naruto, or like two dead ones will reduce their number significantly. There are actually loads of them, and the more there are, the less screentime every single one of them gets. What exactly do we know about TenTen, for example? I think killing of some of the old characters makes room for new ones as well. If you keep introducing new characters, with the old ones still around, the old ones get neglected, and would be better off dead anyway. Apart from that, if the minor characters get more screentime, the speed of the series will decrease, even though it is already sluggish. Due to all this battles in this arc, about one year real time equals one or two days in Naruto. That's probably a record, the slowest moving story in existance.

heh any charachter not currently in an arc is better off dead? no wonder you want people dead, you have a very grim view of life.

As for the speed of the series i think its pretty exciting and progressive (manga) i find that one of the best features of naruto is the supporting cast. I dont think you realize, this is supposed to be a long lasting series, that will probably span the "coming of age" years of the genins lives. Sure you can add a lil to the story by killing the chars but so much more to chars by letting them live in the long run. How will chouji's life change if he finds self worth? what are long term effects of the pill? how will chouji and shika relate in the future? conversations and new battle plans for best friends who understand each other so well? much more development can occur for neiji as well. is the only development you people like the angsty development of people coping with the death of all thier friends? this has already been done in this series, half the charachters are coping with some type of loss, so we should have 90% coping with death of their friends? that makes the story cool? personaly if everyone in this series is has some story about how thier best friend died, that would be kind of cheesy an overdone.
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