AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-04, 11:43   Link #10801
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Okay, I was reading EP1 lately and I read carefully the second twilight part.
First of all : Let's settle the red :

RED :
Quote:
  • Both (Eva and Hideyoshi) were killed by another person!
  • It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
  • Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
  • No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!
  • Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
AT ~7:00 PM :
Quote:
  • Eva and Hideoyoshi left the parlor and are in their room.
  • Natshui, Battler, Jessica, George and Maria are in the parlor.
  • Kumasawa, Nanjo, Genji and Kanon are in the kitchen.
  • Rosa, Kyrie and Rudolf, who were unidentified in the storehouse, are confirmed to be just "corpse", therefore, they were dead in the storehouse.
  • Shannon and Krauss, which death status has not been confirmed by red, could be dead or alive, but because no body double tricks exist, they were in the storehouse.
THEN :
Quote:
  1. Genji went to the parlor to say to Natsuhi that dinner is ready. Natsuhi and the cousins locations are confirmed : the parlor.
  2. Genji go to the kitchen to bring Kanon with him. Kumasawa, Nanjo and Kanon location is confirmed too, however, their location was not confirmed when Genji went to the parlor.
  3. Genji and Kanon found the door locked, the envelope was already here. Kanon notices it first.
  4. Kanon and Genji go the kitchen, Kanon and Kumasawa go in the storehouse and Genji and Nanjo go in the parlor to bring Natsuhi with them.
  5. Kanon and Kumasawa get a tool in the storehouse and go back, in 5 minutes according to Kanon.
  6. Kanon and Kumasawa find Eva's corpse, the chain, according to Kanon, was very easy to cut.
  7. Kumasawa is on her knee, Kanon find Hideyoshi corpses, there is a jar of body soap, open, on the floor, Natsuhi, Genji and Nanjo arrives.
  8. Nanjo confirm Hideyoshi death (well, anyone could tell that they were dead), and say that the death occurred in the past hour.
  9. Cousins arrives.
I won't start blue now...no, I am not ready yet...now, interpretations !
ANALYSIS AND INTERPRETATIONS :
Quote:
I -When Genji left the parlor for the first time, we don't know if he went directly in the kitchen, moreover, when don't even know how many time has passed between these two points.
II -With statement I, Nanjo, Kanon and Kumasawa location are not specified during this period of time.
III -When Kanon and Kumasawa are in the storehouse, they don't give a f**k to the corpse that are supposed to be here. Even Kumasawa, that didn't see the corpse sooner.
IV - The tip about the jar of body soap in too pointless.
V -Battler didn't even get into the room.
VI - Battler said that Genji went in the parlor to bring Natsuhi, he didn't tell anything about Nanjo who was supposed to be with him.
Okay...I guess it's all ?
*plays Core in the music room*

1.2.3 and I-II- : Genji could have set the letter before heading back to the kitchen. and
Kanon, Kumasawa and Nanjo could have done this too, when Genji was calling for Natsuhi. However, it will means that the distance between the kitchen and the bedroom is smaller that the distance between the parlor and the kitchen, because it would be impossible to come back without running or without knowing that Genji would not immediately head back to the kitchen.

4.5. and III- :VERY VERY VERY VERY suspicious part here, how can they don't even notice the corpse ? .The part where they see the corpse is omitted. or
Kumasawa is involved in the 1st twilight. or even more foolish
Go in the storehouse, which is far in the rose garden, pick a tool, and going back next to the door, running with Kumasawa falling here and here, IN 5 MINUTES ?...There is maybe another storehouse somewhere else.
And for the rest of the game :
When they unlocked the storehouse, it was possible for Shannon or Krauss to escape from it, and due to III-, Kanon and Kumasawa propably didn't notice.

4.5. and VI- : Genji went in the parlor, where Natshui and the cousins were. Kanon and Kumasawa were in the storehouse...so...only Nanjo could have drawn the magic circle that is not a circle. However, 7. !
It takes more time to Nanjo and Genji to call for Natsuhi than Kanon and Kumasawa. Genji could have drawn it before getting in the parlor, who knows.

6. : The chain might be a fake chain.

7. -IV : Maybe it wants to tell us that "Hideyoshi was actally taking a bath, the corpse didn't get moved here afterwards." (I can't use red, so I made "faint" red).

So...to sum up...

Who put the envelope ?
Kanon, Kumasawa, Nanjo or Genji are the only one without alibis.

Who drew the sign on the door ?
Nanjo or Genji.

Was it possible for someone in the parlor to leave ?
Only if Natsuhi or Battler fall asleep. Natsuhi have a gun and Battler is our RELIABLE person, as the detective. (but incompetent)
But...I will go with Knox's 8th here.

Was it possible for someone in the storehouse to leave ?
Even if they faked their death, with the locks, they could leave only after Kanon and Kumasawa unlocked it. And if Krauss of Shannon did that, they had to run fast to reach the room of the murder before Kanon and Kumasawa.

So...who killed them ?
I can make a theory with Genji/Nanjo as the killer
I can make a theory with Kanon/Kumasawa as the killer

The first one :
When Genji knock on the door, Eva was alive and Hideyoshi was taking a shower. However, as shown with the recipe scene, Eva was doubting the servant to hide Kinzo death, so she was suspecting the servants. It's why she didn't open the door first. Kanon left.
Then, Genji decided to talk about the letter out loud. Eva think it was a letter for her and opened the door. Genji enters, kills Hideyoshi and Eva. Then he use X to fake the chain that Kanon will cut later...or the servants are all acomplice and Kanon never cut any chain at all.

And the second
Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi when he entered in the room.

Anyway, if you read all Genji could have SET THE ENVELOPE, DRAW THE MAGIC SIGN AND KILL THEM !
But this method X of "fake chain" is...strange...so Kanon as the killer is more likely possible.

Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-06-04 at 13:56.
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 14:31   Link #10802
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post

So...who killed them ?
I can make a theory with Genji/Nanjo as the killer
When Genji knock on the door, Eva was alive and Hideyoshi was taking a shower. However, as shown with the recipe scene, Eva was doubting the servant to hide Kinzo death, so she was suspecting the servants. It's why she didn't open the door first. Kanon left.
Then, Genji decided to talk about the letter out loud. Eva think it was a letter for her and opened the door. Genji enters, kills Hideyoshi and Eva. Then he use X to fake the chain that Kanon will cut later...or the servants are all acomplice and Kanon never cut any chain at all.
Sorry, but Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers . At the time it was spoken it was referring to EP1, so you can't really argue this one.
(it was said by Lambda to counter Battler's idea that the three killed each other)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca
I can make a theory with Kanon/Kumasawa as the killer
The first one :
Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi when he entered in the room.
Because of the same red text, Kumasawa isn't a murderer. The only one in your theory that could have killed them was Kanon.

Which isn't really a new theory for the second twilight, but it's one of the more popular ones. Examining each person's alibi again:

Kinzo: Dead
Krauss: Identifiable corpse, and Battler clearly sees it. That means he's dead.
Eva: The victim, and she didn't commit suicide after committing murder.
Rudolf: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead.
Rosa: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead.
Jessica: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only time she could have killed them was when Kanon was injured, and she was out of Battler's sight. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kanon's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent.
George: With Battler in the parlor at the time. He was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say he's innocent.
Battler: He's the detective, so he didn't kill them.
Maria: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only chance she could have killed them was after she was thrown out of the study. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kumasawa's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent.
Natsuhi: With Battler in the parlor at the time. She was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say she's innocent, if EP5 is any indication.
Hideyoshi: The victim, and he didn't commit suicide after committing murder.
Kyrie: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead.
Genji: He isn't a murderer.
Nanjo: He isn't a murderer.
Kumasawa: She isn't a murderer.
Gohda: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead.
Kanon: He was with Kumasawa at the time, but she could have lied, so it's possible he is the killer.
Shannon: Battler never saw her corpse, even though it is identifiable. Basically she could have faked her death, escaped from the storehouse using the window and killed them.

Jessica and Maria have very small windows of opportunity to kill them, but it makes things much more complicated.
Shannon and Kanon as culprits make it much simpler, but there isn't enough evidence to prove which one of them did it. At least, I haven't been able to find it.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 14:41   Link #10803
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Sorry, but Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers . At the time it was spoken it was referring to EP1, so you can't really argue this one.
(it was said by Lambda to counter Battler's idea that the three killed each other)



Because of the same red text, Kumasawa isn't a murderer. The only one in your theory that could have killed them was Kanon.

Which isn't really a new theory for the second twilight, but it's one of the more popular ones. Examining each person's alibi again:

Kinzo: Dead
Krauss: Identifiable corpse, and Battler clearly sees it. That means he's dead.
Eva: The victim, and she didn't commit suicide after committing murder.
Rudolf: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead.
Rosa: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead.
Jessica: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only time she could have killed them was when Kanon was injured, and she was out of Battler's sight. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kanon's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent.
George: With Battler in the parlor at the time. He was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say he's innocent.
Battler: He's the detective, so he didn't kill them.
Maria: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only chance she could have killed them was after she was thrown out of the study. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kumasawa's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent.
Natsuhi: With Battler in the parlor at the time. She was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say she's innocent, if EP5 is any indication.
Hideyoshi: The victim, and he didn't commit suicide after committing murder.
Kyrie: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead.
Genji: He isn't a murderer.
Nanjo: He isn't a murderer.
Kumasawa: She isn't a murderer.
Gohda: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead.
Kanon: He was with Kumasawa at the time, but she could have lied, so it's possible he is the killer.
Shannon: Battler never saw her corpse, even though it is identifiable. Basically she could have faked her death, escaped from the storehouse using the window and killed them.

Jessica and Maria have very small windows of opportunity to kill them, but it makes things much more complicated.
Shannon and Kanon as culprits make it much simpler, but there isn't enough evidence to prove which one of them did it. At least, I haven't been able to find it.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers was in EP1 ? and referring to all the murders ? I didn't remember. Well being the murderer won't mean that they are not accomplice, so the magic sign is still on.
...Well...Kanon is just the perfect murderer for EP1 But I don't find a motive for Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo death, George has the most important reason to kill them (by reasoning only them + Kanon could have kill Rva and Hideyoshi, and he think that Kanon is dead).

So...Kanon and Shannon for culprit in EP1...
Quote:
Krauss: Identifiable corpse, and Battler clearly sees it. That means he's dead.
Battler is incompetant. Krauss could have faked his death too, and be the mastermind (night shift)
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 14:50   Link #10804
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers was in EP1 ? and referring to all the murders ? I didn't remember. Well being the murderer won't mean that they are not accomplice, so the magic sign is still on.
...Well...Kanon is just the perfect murderer for EP1 But I don't find a motive for Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo death, George has the most important reason to kill them (by reasoning only them + Kanon could have kill Rva and Hideyoshi, and he thnk that Kanon is dead)
I'm not sure about the motive either, but just using process of elimination only someone who faked their death could have killed them. Because at the time everyone who was thought to be alive was either in the study or the parlor.

The two most likely people to have faked their deaths are once again Shannon and Kanon, but there actually isn't proof Eva and Hideyoshi are dead... though there still isn't a good motive for them.

Quote:
Battler is incompetant. Krauss could have faked his death too, and be the mastermind (night shift)
Or even Krauss, but that still doesn't help find a motive for killing the last few. Other than to imitate the last few twilights, of course.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 15:13   Link #10805
Vega Lyra
<Congratulations>!!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Belgium
Euk, reading this thread is like reading a maths textbook all over again. No possible motives, just 'who did it' and that's it. X_X

Since I could not find any other place suitable for what I am going to say, I will post it here. I'd like to express my opinion on why there is a letter from 'Beatrice', why the plaque below the portrait of Beatrice exists.

I believe it has to do with Kinzo's will.

In the very beginning of EP1, Nanjo tries to persuade Kinzo to write a will. Kinzo is very much against that, as he finds his chlidren greedy and grandchildren unworthy. However, he later on seems to agree. (I think this scene really happened, but a year or so preceding the actual events of '86.)

From here on, it's my educated speculation:
Kinzo, knowing he only had a few months left, commissioned a painting of his beloved Beatrice and composed the riddle himself. The painting was to give an image of the witch of the island. Perhaps Kinzo knew about his children's financial problems, or could foresee them.
I'm very much sure that Kinzo himself wrote and sealed the letters, storing them away until a pre-planned date or event.

Kinzo then placed the following in his will - when he dies, during the next family conference, the following must be carried out:
1. Shannon will deliver the first letter bearing Kinzo's crest, to Maria under the guise of Beatrice.
2. Maria reads the letter to the family after dinner has finished, this letter will encourage the family members to put their heads together in order to find the gold.
3. If the family does not succeed, an explosion will occur after 2 days, taking everything of the Ushiromiya family as interest for Beatrice, as well as the gold. (I'm sure Kinzo would have wanted this, if there was no one fit to succeed him. He was a very proud man.)

I'm sure that only Genji, Shannon and Kanon know about Kinzo's will. Hence their one-winged crest on their uniform. Nanjo does not show any signs of knowing anything about this will.

What I don't get is how Kinzo would have foreseen the typhoon. And I'm sure that Kinzo, or whoever composed the letters, did not intend for any of the murders to happen. And of course, please remember this is all speculation.
__________________
Vega Lyra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 15:15   Link #10806
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I'm not sure about the motive either, but just using process of elimination only someone who faked their death could have killed them. Because at the time everyone who was thought to be alive was either in the study or the parlor.

The two most likely people to have faked their deaths are once again Shannon and Kanon, but there actually isn't proof Eva and Hideyoshi are dead... though there still isn't a good motive for them.
For me Kanon didn't even die, she blocked the stake with his hand. Or he wounded himself, but not to death, so all red truth are infective.
# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!!
# In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
# Kanon did not commit suicide
*
Nothing was able to KILL Kanon, but just wound him...therefore Kanon didn't die in the boiler room, and could have killed everyone...but...ah...

Kanon revolted. He didn't want to be considered as furniture. He asked Shannon to fake her death to make a perfect alibi for the next crimes. He also asked Genji and menaced Nanjo and Kumasawa to make them do was he wanted. Krauss knew about that, and he is so stupid that he thought it was a good way to make Kinzo death hidden forever.
Shannon, dress up as Beatrice, and gave the letter to Maria. Krauss stole the ring of the head on Kinzo's finger.
Kanon and Genji killed the 4 in the dinning room and Gohda was killed because Kanon hated him (first scene with Kanon, Gohda seems pretty harsh with him). Shannon acted dead.
Second twilight, Genji put the letter near the door, go and find Kanon in the kitchen. Kanon go with Kumasawa unlock the storehouse and free Shannon, Kumasawa is still menaced by Kanon. Genji writes the sign on the door, as he has the key to Kinzo's study it was easy to learn magic symbols. Kanon kills Eva and Hideyoshi, and the three do exactly was Kanon told them to do.
Kanon fake his death. The three are about to say the truth to Maria, Shannon arrives and kill them, dressed as Beatrice. Then she/Kanon kills Natsuhi.


Krauss in EP1 is strange and suspicious...but this theory make sense.

The cousins were not killed because :
Jessica : Obvious reason if Kanon is behind this.
George : Same as above, but with Shannon. Or Kanon knew that George was close to Shannon so...
Battler : Helped Kanon in the rose garden.
Maria : She helped to make the illusion of the witch.

"The difficulty is standard
Shall we first take the easy road ?"
I guess we actually took it.

AHHHH !
KANON AND SHANNON WERE IN THE TEA PARTY !!! I forgot that only the survivors at 0:00 and them were here.
Talking about the tea party, when Battler says : "Kanon, you were playacting!" SHANNON and Jessica immediately reacts.
So yeah...can we claim that this theory is truth ?

Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-06-04 at 15:51.
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 16:46   Link #10807
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Well about Kanon and Shannon.

Kanon thinks that Gohda and Natsuhi are "bad people" for bullying Shannon, and Shannon may or may not agree. Genji and Kumasawa however are admired and respected by both of them. I can see Kanon killing Gohda and Natsuhi maybe, but Genji and Kumasawa is a stretch. Lambda seems to imply after she makes her reds that only some other person could've killed Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. She doesn't think Battler's blue about them all shooting each other works.

So why would Kanon or Shannon kill people they respect? Unless they were pressured by some other person to do it?
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 16:51   Link #10808
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well about Kanon and Shannon.

Kanon thinks that Gohda and Natsuhi are "bad people" for bullying Shannon, and Shannon may or may not agree. Genji and Kumasawa however are admired and respected by both of them. I can see Kanon killing Gohda and Natsuhi maybe, but Genji and Kumasawa is a stretch. Lambda seems to imply after she makes her reds that only some other person could've killed Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. She doesn't think Battler's blue about them all shooting each other works.

So why would Kanon or Shannon kill people they respect? Unless they were pressured by some other person to do it?
To follow the epitaph ?
Because they were going to say the truth to Maria ?
Those 3 were killed by other another person ? How did s/he get the stakes ?
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-04, 17:00   Link #10809
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
To be clear I'm saying that since there are obviously very few people in every episode that can be murderers most of the time they must have their own personal reasons to murder people. And those reasons must be influenced by a person or an idea to get to the point of murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
To follow the epitaph ?
Maybe, but we've thought that since the beginning. Beatrice has nothing the gain from it only the adults do.

Quote:
Because they were going to say the truth to Maria ?
I'm not following you here.

Quote:
Those 3 were killed by other another person ? How did s/he get the stakes ?
Nobody knows where the stakes come from. There are some theories that Kinzo had them or that Rudolf made knockoffs of stakes made by an America company, but there isn't a concrete answer for where they come from yet. I'm hesitant to even say that all of them are even real. Some of them might be collapsible or some of them might not even exist.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 00:55   Link #10810
TTR
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Maybe we're wrong in assuming there is ever a detective in any of the games except when Erika is involved? I'm rereading EP5, and I can't shake the feeling that the narrator of all of the games isn't Battler... I have a feeling that the true narrator of all games is in fact the Game Master :/
TTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 00:59   Link #10811
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Maybe we're wrong in assuming there is ever a detective in any of the games except when Erika is involved? I'm rereading EP5, and I can't shake the feeling that the narrator of all of the games isn't Battler... I have a feeling that the true narrator of all games is in fact the Game Master :/
I jokingly suggested the detective is the reader. After all, when Dlanor says

"Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!"

Maybe "you" wasn't referring to Battler at all!

But I don't think you can get terribly far with that. Author Theory would, however, suggest that the writer - and thus the "reliable perspective" - is not actually inherent to Battler. The writing in ep1-4 simply chose to make Battler reliable, before perhaps realizing that he need not be (or perhaps should not be). But that doesn't get much traction yet. Ep7 may blow the lid off the whole Author Theory concept, or it may discard it as extraneous outright.
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 01:12   Link #10812
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Maybe we're wrong in assuming there is ever a detective in any of the games except when Erika is involved? I'm rereading EP5, and I can't shake the feeling that the narrator of all of the games isn't Battler... I have a feeling that the true narrator of all games is in fact the Game Master :/
I've pointed this out a lot. There seem to be multiple narrators in Umineko. Reread the closet scene as an example. It switches from Natsuhi saying "I did this" to an observer saying "she did this". There is the third person narrator, Battler as a narrator, and Natsuhi. I don't know of any specific scenes where Erika narrates anything except maybe when she is introduced.

Battler talks about this in the ???? also. He asks himself if it's possible to solve a mystery written by someone who does not have an impartial perspective. There are only small pieces that might lead to an answer from what he says.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 01:28   Link #10813
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Also, you could be like me and start questioning whether our Battler even truly exists on the Game Board.
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 02:07   Link #10814
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Also, you could be like me and start questioning whether our Battler even truly exists on the Game Board.
Someone appears to exist on the game board. Exactly who that person is, or who "Ushiromiya Battler" is (or are), is a somewhat less settled issue.

I don't doubt there's a person there. Was there a person actually there (on Rokkenjima-Prime)? Was it the person we believe it to be? Hard to say right now. There have been hints, but not many about who would have been there instead.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 02:39   Link #10815
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
I have a feeling that the true narrator of all games is in fact the Game Master :/
Yeah, the third-person narrator is always the Game Master. Its endorsing of Beatrice's redemption in Ep3 and the constant giggling in Ep5 should prove that.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 02:54   Link #10816
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yeah, the third-person narrator is always the Game Master. Its endorsing of Beatrice's redemption in Ep3 and the constant giggling in Ep5 should prove that.
Can we be entirely sure of that, though? After all, there's a character claiming to have written ep3-6 now. If that's true, the "narrator" of both may well be Beatrice/Lambda, but the narrative voice is deriving from this supposed mutual author. Of course, that assumes you actually buy her claim to being the in-world writer, which remains dubious indeed.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 03:03   Link #10817
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 22
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
In ep1, it seems only possible for Shannon or Kanon to be the killer. With most likely either Kumasawa or Genji as an accomplice, or maybe both.

Because for Eva and Hideyoshi's death, as was explained last page. Only Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, and Kanon could have commited the crime, unless we can come up with a way for the person who faked their death in the 1st twilight to escape from the shed.

And we know that someone who should be dead is alive and they are the person who kills the three in the parlor and Natsuhi.

Kanon's reaction when they see the letter bugs me by the way. It seems almost fantasy like... I need to reread ep1..
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 03:28   Link #10818
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
In ep1, it seems only possible for Shannon or Kanon to be the killer. With most likely either Kumasawa or Genji as an accomplice, or maybe both.

Because for Eva and Hideyoshi's death, as was explained last page. Only Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, and Kanon could have commited the crime, unless we can come up with a way for the person who faked their death in the 1st twilight to escape from the shed.

And we know that someone who should be dead is alive and they are the person who kills the three in the parlor and Natsuhi.

Kanon's reaction when they see the letter bugs me by the way. It seems almost fantasy like... I need to reread ep1..
When Genji and Kanon find the letter, they don't open it...maybe they already knows what is written on it, and want someone of the familiy to open it...but does Kanon open it afterwards ?
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 07:30   Link #10819
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
In an author-theory-wise perspective the "detective" is nothing but a role embedded to a certain character in the story. It's more or less like saying "main character" in a mystery novel.

Basically the "detective" is the character in the story who needs to solve the mysteries and, therefore, is the only one who can move the plot to a true solution. Any other character is either totally clueless, an accomplice, the killer or one of the killers, or someone who knows everything but keep himself silent for various reasons. And even in the case a secondary character, who actively tries to solve the mystery, do manage to find something or the whole scheme, it usually doesn't bring a true advancement in the story. Most of the times such a character gets "silenced" by the killer before he can tell his discoveries to the world (but he might leave an important clue).

So if this perspective is right, there's nothing wrong with Battler being the detective in EP1-4. narratively speaking there are very little reasons to doubt that. The same goes for Erika in EP5 (though EP6 is dubious...).

As for the narrator, it has nothing to do with the "detective". In mystery novels the narrator can be an impersonal voice of the author, the detective himself, the "Watson" of the case or any other character. Sometimes you can even find the murderer as the narrator!

So the fact that Battler isn't always the narrator of EP1-4 doesn't bring any point against the theory of him being the detective.

This brings us to a dilemma: "Even acknowledging that the detective can't see fake scenes, if the narrator is someone else, wouldn't it then be possible for the narrator to tell us that the detective saw things that aren't real even if he didn't?"

Technically I think this should be possible. However when the narrator is the detective himself (and most of the times Battler is the narrator in EP1-4) this shouldn't work.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-05, 10:54   Link #10820
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
That seems about right, and is (unfortunately) the basis for several problematic points of contention. Those points are entirely valid though.

The interesting point about "what happens if the narrator isn't the detective and lies about what the detective sees?" is that it rarely actually applies. Almost all of the jumps to first-person narration for people other than Battler in ep1-4 have nothing to do with the person's present situation and are usually reflections on the person's past (such as Rosa and Eva's narration). There are, or at least appear to be, only two instances of non-detective first-person narration which could actually bear heavily on present events during the game, both of which I believe come in ep5:

1) Battler narrates the infamous parlor gathering scene when he is not the detective.
2) Natsuhi in the closet when Hideyoshi is murdered.

Oddly, we're given no particularly valid reason not to trust both of these narrators. Battler has yet to show any motive for lying about the number of people on the island, and Natsuhi's sincerity of narration is backed by her red text about Shannon. Yet neither one is the detective, so what they see and say is theoretically entirely possible to falsify.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.