AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

View Poll Results: Who would win?
Sarutobi in this Prime 103 91.15%
Orochimaru 10 8.85%
Draw 0 0%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-09-08, 10:32   Link #41
realdeal
The Real Deal
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
You keep saying oro didnt try in this battle..right... Thats why he had to prepare 3 dead bodies to summon 3 hokages to do his business. Since when was using that much preperation and such a high lvl forbidden technique classed as "not trying".

He laughs so you think hes not trying...oro is always laughing ku ku ku, just look at all his fights. When the 3rd summoned Enma he got worried, when they fought the 3rd was beating him and needed the other hokages help.

The 3rd is suppose to be strongest hokage of all time in his prime. Orochimaru himself admits 3rd would have whoop his ass if he wasnt too old. Everything about the 3rd defeat pointed to his old age.

Last edited by realdeal; 2004-09-08 at 12:47.
realdeal is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 10:42   Link #42
eviljiraiya
Evil Perverted Sannin
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne.
ok wot if oro didnt stand around and do nothing in that fight and attacked alongside the other hokages?

sarutobi would;ve been slapped silly.

He was already getting slapped silly by oros taijutsu anyway.
eviljiraiya is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 10:42   Link #43
Hyori
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
3rd would win, he barely had the chakra usage, he had to watch all his moves and stuff because he didnt have much in his old body, if he was in his prime he wouldve been able to do alot more diff types on jutsus, kawarmi and going into the ground were moves that the 3rd taught orochimaru, orochimaru just knows a few more kinjutsus that he created, but 3rd knows waaay more ninjutsu then Orochimaru, if he was in his prime he wouldve whooped Orochimaru, think about how bad he wouldve done up oro in taijutsu, he was still overpowering him with Genma even in his old old age.
Hyori is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 10:49   Link #44
VMLM3
I had a good idea once...
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviljiraiya
ok wot if oro didnt stand around and do nothing in that fight and attacked alongside the other hokages?

sarutobi would;ve been slapped silly.

He was already getting slapped silly by oros taijutsu anyway.
If he'd attacked, he would've risked Sarutobi winning my simply killing him. Like I said before, Sarutobi had the advantage at close range, especially after summoning Enma. And remeber they may be three people but they can't all attack at once, they'd just get in each other's way.
VMLM3 is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 12:50   Link #45
realdeal
The Real Deal
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by eviljiraiya
ok wot if oro didnt stand around and do nothing in that fight and attacked alongside the other hokages?

sarutobi would;ve been slapped silly.

He was already getting slapped silly by oros taijutsu anyway.

If I had 2 lions and had to fight 1 guy witha knife on the street, does the fact that I need my 2 lions to fight him means hes so easy Im not even trying? I wouldnt come near him either as my 2 lions can take care of him and me going there would be risking my life. What if Oro actually did attack and he was the one that ended up with the explosive tags? Theres no IF's about what he should have done, he did what he did to try beat him and still struggled.
realdeal is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 14:02   Link #46
xyrrus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Sarutobi could've defeated Oro back when he was caught stealing something in that flashback where he called Enma, and that was already way past his prime. In his prime, Sarutobi would hit him so hard his future body candidates would fall dead in his wake. That flashback was less than 12 years ago, saru ages 12 years and gets weaker, oro ages 12 years and gets stronger yet even these 12 years gap only put them at par with each other.


I think even the 4th would've kicked his ass although I have no difinitive proof, just a gut feeling.
xyrrus is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 14:13   Link #47
monir
cho~ kakkoii
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
Good debate there by Kidd and Username. I would just like to point out that huge summons such as Manda would have been impractical in the fight Oro-sama VS. the Geezer because of the restriction of movements enforced by the confinement of the barrier. Probably that is the reason Oro-sama started the battle with a different kind of summon. And if I have watched the same anime as Kidd, I would say Oro-sama was clearly at a disadvantage when it came to close combat regardless of what jutsus (tai/nin) he was using because the professor seemed to have counter for everything Oro-sama was throwing. Oro-sama was definitely enjoying the third's ordeal from a front row seat as the old man struggled against those hokages, but anytime Oro-sama went for a little one-on-one against the geezer, Oro-sama (hard to admit ) was spanked. I am not even sure if the third would have used the jutsu to summon the death-god if not for those seemingly "immortal" hokages. Recall those hokages body parts were regenerating after they took direct blast from the tricky old fool, instead of being dead. Then again those two were already dead and how do you kill something that is already dead?

We really don't know how the outcome of the fight would have been different if the fight was just between Oro-sama and the Geezer. We can only make assumption. Nontheless, its a fact Oro-sama established a clear advantage when the two dead hokages were fighting with him. I don't think a summon such as manda could have done any better than those two deadly summons. The battle was fought the way it was because Oro-sama and the Third new each other very well.
__________________
Eat and sleep! And Solace. Sig by RRW.
Space Brothers Executive member of the ASS. Ready to flee at the first sign of trouble.
monir is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 18:13   Link #48
snarl
>:o
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Devil
He could have beaten all of them, reading come come paradise.
how

please dont reply to my post if all you're gonna say is "he could have"
snarl is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 18:23   Link #49
tonkan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Orochimaru -Do you know the satisfaction and happiness gained by hurting the one i used to call teacher? Ep 71
-I prepared this scenario to let you suffer that sort of happiness. So please enjoy.

This clearly shows that he summoned them for amusement purposes, not as a serious means of combat.
Him staying out of it had nothing to do with being afraid of close combat he was just playing around with sarutobis emotions letting him fight the 1st and 2nd alone.


As for the 10 years younger statements,Ep 74. (this happens when hes grabbed oros soul and has already been pierced by the sword).

sarutobi -Ive come this far, yet i dont have enough strength left to pull this guys soul out?
-are you saying that sacrificing my life isnt enough with this old body?

orochimaru -You could have killed me if you were 10 years younger.

Obviously theyre only talking about the strength to pull out his soul and not about "killing him easily" in a battle as some try to make it sound like.


Also the statement that he is the strongest hokage of all time isnt necessarily true at all.
Anbu translated it to
-He was said to be the strongest amongst the hokage.
bakasan translated it to
-People said he was the strongest of all the hokage.

Clearly iruka was speaking in past tense. Saying this was being said back in the day, before the 4th became hokage so therefor hes not being compared to him there, only to the 1st and 2nd. Also the word hokage is never actually being said in that sentence if you listen to it and has been left out in other translations ...making people saying hes strongest of all at the time. (Definately not comparing him to all hokages uptil present).

Anyway, this was about saru vs oro. Theres no telling whod win an in prime fight when you take all thats been said into context. Probably a very close call.
tonkan is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 19:28   Link #50
UserName
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan
Orochimaru -Do you know the satisfaction and happiness gained by hurting the one i used to call teacher? Ep 71
-I prepared this scenario to let you suffer that sort of happiness. So please enjoy.

This clearly shows that he summoned them for amusement purposes, not as a serious means of combat.

Him staying out of it had nothing to do with being afraid of close combat he was just playing around with sarutobis emotions letting him fight the 1st and 2nd alone.
You don't know. There can be more than one reason you know. Either way it would have been safer letting him fight two immortal ninjas that Oro himself wouldn't beat unless you assume he has a de-summoning jutsu for it. Oro would've had more of a chance of losing if he fought him head on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan
As for the 10 years younger statements,Ep 74. (this happens when hes grabbed oros soul and has already been pierced by the sword).

sarutobi -Ive come this far, yet i dont have enough strength left to pull this guys soul out?
-are you saying that sacrificing my life isnt enough with this old body?

orochimaru -You could have killed me if you were 10 years younger.

Obviously theyre only talking about the strength to pull out his soul and not about "killing him easily" in a battle as some try to make it sound like.
No. You are assuming once again. Then I can say the Oro 'obviously' meant that if he were 10 years younger thing meant if he were that much younger in general. But guess what i'm more accurate for there is proof throughout the series. "Old Old Old" and also the "You couldn't defeat age" or the fact that in that flashback approximately "10!" years ago Oro ran away from the 3rd. And the fact when Enma was summoned that he said he should've killed him when he could at that moment "10!" years ago. Even thoguh the 3rd was about 60 at that time he still had the strength to beat him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan

Also the statement that he is the strongest hokage of all time isnt necessarily true at all.
Anbu translated it to
-He was said to be the strongest amongst the hokage.
bakasan translated it to
-People said he was the strongest of all the hokage.
Regardless of what the anime said, what did the manga say? And people called him teh strongest ninja of all time. Even Oro said he was once the God of All Shinobi but he couldn't defeat Age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan
Clearly iruka was speaking in past tense. Saying this was being said back in the day, before the 4th became hokage so therefor hes not being compared to him there, only to the 1st and 2nd. Also the word hokage is never actually being said in that sentence if you listen to it and has been left out in other translations ...making people saying hes strongest of all at the time. (Definately not comparing him to all hokages uptil present).
Clearly you assume things without facts and ignore instances where he was called the strongest hokage and such and that age and such yadaa ydaa yadaaa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan
Anyway, this was about saru vs oro. Theres no telling whod win an in prime fight when you take all thats been said into context. Probably a very close call.
If you take into account all the 'facts' then the 3rd in his prime should've been able to beat any ninja and also from the time of the flachback which was roughly when the 3rd was 60 or so, the 3rd could've definitely killed Oro without Oro having a chance of winning. That was approximately 10 years prior to the current time. So that age and befroe say about 30 years before that or whenever he was in his prime he should've been able to easily Kill Oro.

It was cleary stated by even Oro himself. The 3rd even when not in his prime even if he were at least 15 or 10 years younger Oro had no chance.
UserName is offline  
Old 2004-09-08, 20:54   Link #51
Kidd
SD Translator
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to Kidd Send a message via AIM to Kidd Send a message via MSN to Kidd Send a message via Yahoo to Kidd
Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
No. You are assuming once again. Then I can say the Oro 'obviously' meant that if he were 10 years younger thing meant if he were that much younger in general. But guess what i'm more accurate for there is proof throughout the series. "Old Old Old" and also the "You couldn't defeat age" or the fact that in that flashback approximately "10!" years ago Oro ran away from the 3rd. And the fact when Enma was summoned that he said he should've killed him when he could at that moment "10!" years ago.
It's called context. They were speaking about the soul-pulling, why would he suddenly talk about anything else? Let me translate these sentances myself and I'll see how I get it:

Sarutobi: I've come this far... I've come all the way here... is it possible that my current strength itself isn't enough to pull out his soul? Can it be that this geezer's body isn't enough of a sacrifice?

Orochimaru-sama: If this was 10 years ago, you could have killed me now, couldn't you? *small laugh and pulls up sword*

It should be obvious that he doesn't mean "in this fight" but that it's context-based, "now" as in "with this freaking jutsu that is holding on to my soul and hurting like nothing else".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkan
Also the statement that he is the strongest hokage of all time isnt necessarily true at all.
Anbu translated it to
-He was said to be the strongest amongst the hokage.
bakasan translated it to
-People said he was the strongest of all the hokage.
If I recall correctly, the line was more like "he's said to be the strongest of all the current kage". The word "Hokage" isn't in there, "kage" was. I'm not gonna say anyone was wrong in this translation or anything, I'm far from perfect and won't say everyone else is wrong just because that's not how I would translate it, and I'm also taking this out of my memory and not checking an actual episode, but yeah I remember that being said at one point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
If you take into account all the 'facts' then the 3rd in his prime should've been able to beat any ninja and also from the time of the flachback which was roughly when the 3rd was 60 or so, the 3rd could've definitely killed Oro without Oro having a chance of winning. That was approximately 10 years prior to the current time. So that age and befroe say about 30 years before that or whenever he was in his prime he should've been able to easily Kill Oro.
In those 10 years Orochimaru-sama has become a lot stronger, he most probably hasn't been doing a single thing that didn't make him stronger. He obviously joined up with Dawn and all those other things. Sure that Sarutobi would be stronger, but Orochimaru-sama grew far more than Sarutobi probably lost with age. You can say I'm assuming things here, but really I have as little to base this on as you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
It was cleary stated by even Oro himself. The 3rd even when not in his prime even if he were at least 15 or 10 years younger Oro had no chance.
Again I say, "when"?
Kidd is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 06:43   Link #52
hokagenaruto3
Crescent & Star
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 27
OMG why the hell do you oro lovers think Oro waited for like half a century to attack Sarutobi?! Sarutobi was known as the GOD of shinobi, superior to all, knowing all of the jutsu in his village.
Oro himself stated that he would have been pwnd, so no point in discussing
__________________
To write history is as important as to make history. It is an unchanging truth that if the writer does not remain true to the maker, then it takes on a quality that will confuse humanity.
hokagenaruto3 is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 07:12   Link #53
The Great Yuri
Dis-Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Glasgae
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Devil
You know actually this thread is silly, 3rd in his prime would own everybody.

See, the problem with Naruto is that, in theory anything can happen. The number of jutsu any hokage would have would have to be huge. Yet in the fight we don't see anything near 50 from 3 of them...

There is just too much they can do, and too many possibilities.


However, the Anime did make it clear that SArutobi would have won in his prime, as he certainly would have been fast enough to stop the summoning of the other hokages.
The Great Yuri is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 07:56   Link #54
Inuzuka
now with 20% more ego!
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Singapore
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Inuzuka
EDIT::Topicoff:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd
He didn't even get into the fight too much himself but stood behind his two hokage, laughing. He kinda got a little serious when Enma was summoned, ... He goes on playing with him and suddenly POOF Sarutobi pulls off the Shiki Fuujin...use the Shiki Fuujin which bested even the Kyuubi. Clearly, Orochimaru-sama could've finished the geezer off quickly before the Shiki Fuujin started, if only he had taken the fight seriously from the start.
Honestly that's where the problem lies.You see,when you start thinking about it,taking a fight as nonchalant as Orochimaru did was a weakness in itself.Sure you could say that Orochimaru would own the Third if he did,but the matter of the fact is that he didn't,so it's pretty pointless to say 'Orochimaru-sama could've finished the geezer off quickly before the Shiki Fuujin started' because he didn't.

Quote:
The difference in strength is too big...Orochimaru-sama was even able to hold his own together with Kabuto against Tsunade and Jiraiya
This comparison is not accurate.Sure,Orochimaru is powerful and he did manage to hold off Jiraiya and Tsunade hands down,(*Not pun*)but you can't say that 'Because Orochimaru held off Jiraiya+Tsunade=He can win the Third.'Sure,Jiraiya & Tsunade are powerful as well,but the fact is neither of them is the Third Hokage.(*Just because A can 'win' B+C,dosent mean he can win D,even if B & C are Sannin*)

Quote:
And I can't remember Orochimaru-sama saying Sarutobi beating him if he was younger, I remember him saying it would be a more fair fight, but no more than that...Also... wouldn't Manda be able to eat Enma pretty easily?
Yes,Orochimaru did say that the Third would stand a higher chance/possibility of defeating him(*Orochimaru*) if he were younger.
(*It would really depend on how much you trust the translators,or your matter of perception/interpretation.Interpretation as in how you would interprete a message.Not how you would interprete a foreign language.*)

Regarding Manda eating Enma- Would a fat and tall guy definately lose to a fat and short guy?

Last edited by Inuzuka; 2004-09-09 at 08:29.
Inuzuka is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 08:21   Link #55
Trax
Rock beats scissors
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
The 3rd in his prime probably could have countered anything Oro tried almost instantly. Basing your arguments on Oro's fight with old man the 3rd is just silly. Just to repeat for people who don't seem to get it: this hypothetical case is about the 3rd IN HIS PRIME!
Trax is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 18:56   Link #56
tonkan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
The thing is a lot of assumptions are being made about the thirds strength from comments that have been made about him in the show. And as i put those comments into context they dont mean as much as you think they do. But you dont like to take circumstances into account do you?

Username you obviously didnt go back and check for yourself in what contexts those comments were being said. I did in both 2 manga translations and 2 anime translations, I didnt bring up the manga because the title of the thread said anime.

The manga translations i read said "He was said to be the strongest of all".. no hokage in there. No ever. Just SAID to be the strongest of all. And he was called the god of shinobi. Thats very different from being the god of shinobi as you like to put it. I have also heard that the correct transation reads that he was the strongest of the kages. I do not know japanese so i cant verify that.

Also it has never been stated anywhere that that flashback was 10 years earlier.
tonkan is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 18:56   Link #57
Kidd
SD Translator
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to Kidd Send a message via AIM to Kidd Send a message via MSN to Kidd Send a message via Yahoo to Kidd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzuka
Honestly that's where the problem lies.You see,when you start thinking about it,taking a fight as nonchalant as Orochimaru did was a weakness in itself.Sure you could say that Orochimaru would own the Third if he did,but the matter of the fact is that he didn't,so it's pretty pointless to say 'Orochimaru-sama could've finished the geezer off quickly before the Shiki Fuujin started' because he didn't.
I know that he was too confident, and that indeed that can become a weakness when it comes to a fight. But as for actual strength in itself it was quite obvious who had the upper hand; one was trying as much as he could - the other was laughing, threw away his sword to play around a little with the oppoent, stood back and called the other person names, etc. To me it's quite obvious that Orochimaru-sama wouldn't have had his arms sealed today if he wasn't as playful as he is ^_^x mmm playful Orochimaru-sama, I like the cling of that sentance ^_^x

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzuka
This comparison is not accurate.Sure,Orochimaru is powerful and he did manage to hold off Jiraiya and Tsunade hands down,(*Not pun*)but you can't say that 'Because Orochimaru held off Jiraiya+Tsunade=He can win the Third.'Sure,Jiraiya & Tsunade are powerful as well,but the fact is neither of them is the Third Hokage.(*Just because A can 'win' B+C,dosent mean he can win D,even if B & C are Sannin*)
Very true, I just wanted to put an example that showed how great he is that had to do with something else than the Sarutobi VS Orochimaru-sama fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzuka
Yes,Orochimaru did say that the Third would stand a higher chance/possibility of defeating him(*Orochimaru*) if he were younger.
(*It would really depend on how much you trust the translators,or your matter of perception/interpretation.Interpretation as in how you would interprete a message.Not how you would interprete a foreign language.*)
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that Sarutobi would win either, it would just mean Orochimaru-sama would have to drop two of his attitude problems instead of one. Well it might be, it might also be that the difference is enough to tip to Sarutobi's favour; there's really no way we can know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzuka
Regarding Manda eating Enma- Would a fat and tall guy definately lose to a fat and short guy?
Of course not, but we're not speaking tall and short humans here, we're discussing something of human size compared to something enormous. Manda also seems to be the most powerful of the three Sannin summons, though of course that doesn't mean he's necessarily stronger than Enma. But the way I figure it, is that if Enma couldn't defeat Orochimaru-sama by simply going down and kicking some butt, Manda should be able to take Enma. Since I don't see Orochimaru-sama winning over Manda, I really don't. Like I said, he isn't a God... yet ;P
Kidd is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 22:01   Link #58
Inuzuka
now with 20% more ego!
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Singapore
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Inuzuka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd
...Orochimaru-sama wouldn't have had his arms sealed today if he wasn't as playful as he is ^_^x mmm playful Orochimaru-sama, I like the cling of that sentance ^_^x
Yes,i do agree with you that Orochimaru would stand a better chance if he had started fighting seriously from the start but,as i have stated,taking the fight as casually as he did was a weakness in itself.
Secondly,sure you could say that Orochimaru would own the Third,but he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidd
Very true, I just wanted to put an example that showed how great he is that had to do with something else than the Sarutobi VS Orochimaru-sama fight.
Ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidd
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that Sarutobi would win...there's really no way we can know.
The most important thing we need to consider before starting one of these 'X Versus Y' treads!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidd
...of course that doesn't mean he's necessarily stronger than Enma... is that if Enma couldn't defeat Orochimaru-sama by simply going down and kicking some butt, Manda should be able to take Enma. Since I don't see Orochimaru-sama winning over Manda, I really don't. Like I said, he isn't a God... yet ;P
Ok,you're right that wasn't the best example...
But nonetheless,this thread's theme depends more on how you perceive the given facts.Thus it(*The discussion*) would never truly end because we would have all sorts of different insights from different people.So,unless 'prime' Sarutobi fought it out with 'prime' Orochimaru,we would never know.
Right know,we're just compiling all the facts,factors and stats that we can, & comparing them,but on the other hand there's only that far that the stats can take us.
Inuzuka is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 22:05   Link #59
UserName
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Hmmmm. If you trust in what the characters say then we know that Prime Sarutobi can beat anyone.

There are those who refuse to think Oro can lose. There are even those who think he can beat Itachi...
UserName is offline  
Old 2004-09-09, 23:01   Link #60
VMLM3
I had a good idea once...
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Age: 29
Ok, I just watched the whole fight sequence again (this is an anime thread after all) and you're right, Oro never actually says Sarutobi could beat himif he where younger but the whole scene is about letting you know the reason Sarutobi is losing is his old age. The panting, the lack of chakra, and a lot of other things that are shown to us all say the same thing, Saurtobi is too old. Apart from that Orochimaru still gets his ass handed to him everytime he comes in close against the Third; except one time because he caught Sarutobi completely off guard, and still Sarutobi reverses the situation.
Orochimaru does say that the third was considered a god amongst shinobi, and all the while he points out that all in all it's age that has defeated Sarutobi.

So with all that emphasis on old age, the fact that at a younger age Sarutobi could've taken Orochimaru is almost implied, it's as if the anime is telling you, Sarutobi is losing because he's old, Orochimaru is winning because he has remained young.
VMLM3 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.