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Old 2010-06-05, 14:18   Link #10821
DaBackpack
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Crap, I forgot about this Red Truth:

Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games.

Well, I guess we have a problem with the "baby from 19 years ago being the culprit in Episode 5" theory, unless the baby is someone other than Battler.

Or the baby is just the Illusion of the Witch and Battler has nothing to do with the crimes.
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Old 2010-06-05, 14:36   Link #10822
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The interesting point about "what happens if the narrator isn't the detective and lies about what the detective sees?" is that it rarely actually applies.
Actually, if you go back and look through the early episodes, there's a couple of times where the narration leaves Battler's head, usually just for a few seconds of time.

As an example, there's the scene in the dining room at... lunch, I believe, where Battler is introducing the other adults... almost immediately after he's done so, there's a bit where the narration suddenly starts referring to Battler in third-person.

I have no idea what purpose such a thing could serve, but it's there.
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Old 2010-06-05, 15:49   Link #10823
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, if you go back and look through the early episodes, there's a couple of times where the narration leaves Battler's head, usually just for a few seconds of time.

As an example, there's the scene in the dining room at... lunch, I believe, where Battler is introducing the other adults... almost immediately after he's done so, there's a bit where the narration suddenly starts referring to Battler in third-person.

I have no idea what purpose such a thing could serve, but it's there.
I should have stressed I meant first-person narration. Third-person narration is a floating question in every episode, as it has no basis in any character in the story and thus its voice cannot be ascertained. It can't just be the Game Master, as by ep3 it seems very out of character for Beatrice (to say nothing of the manipulations Beatrice is working at the time).

I meant any time the game jumps to "I" and the speaker is not Battler.
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Old 2010-06-05, 15:52   Link #10824
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I have some more ideas, okay.

First of all:

Natsuhi loved Shannon, after all...

I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall.

Erika is suit Beatrice

Now for the trap:

Knox's 5th:

Could be anything for all I care, it doesn't matter because every character is a chinaman except Erika and Maria.

Now for Episode 3:

Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist. Unfortunate if you're looking for the gold.

I have doen some other things, but I want to hear what you guys think first, I won't reply for a few days though, sorry if anything has been mentioned before or I end up sounding obnoxious.

Coming up:
Comments on the red truth
Comments on the golden truth
Where Shkannon came from
Annotations fo the Knox rules
And a way for the whole keys mystery to work (hopefully)

enjoy the wolf-fight

Last edited by Uberzaki; 2010-06-05 at 16:06. Reason: Slight typo
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Old 2010-06-05, 16:33   Link #10825
rogerpepitone
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semi OT: as for odd relationships between detective and narrator, there's The Blind Barber, by John Dickson Carr. The detective is not present for any of the activities of the mystery. The murder and robberies are all described by the narrator in flashback.

Also, I looked back to see who appears in the various tea parties:

Episode 1:
Characters ostensibly alive at Oct 5, 11:59 PM: Battler, Maria, Jessica, George

Characters in tea party: Battler, Jessica, Maria, George, Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice

Characters in ????: Beatrice, Bernkastel
(Bern talks to an unidentified person, possibly Battler, possibly the player)

----

Episode 2:
Alive: Battler, Kinzo, Genji, Rosa, Maria

tea party: Rosa (though her sprite is not shown), Beatrice, goat, Maria, Battler
(Krauss, Eva, and Rudolf's sprites are shown, though in flashback BW)

????: Beatrice, Bernkastel, Lambdadelta
(Again, Bern and LD talk to an unidentified person.)

----

Episode 3:
Alive: Jessica, Eva

tea party: Beatrice, Bernkastel, Lambdadelta

????: Eva (though her sprite is shown only as a BW flashback image), Ange, Bernkastel
(Rudolf, Kyrie, and Battler are shown as transparent flashback images.)

----

Episode 4:
Alive: Battler

Tea party: Battler, Beatrice
(Battler isn't shown until after Beatrice uses red text wrt. Kanon's body.)
(Kanon, Maria, Jessica, and Kinzo are shown in flashback BW. Kinzo is also shown transparent.)

????: Bernkastel, Lambdadelta
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Old 2010-06-05, 18:58   Link #10826
TTR
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Oh, the distinction for the "hidden passage" and the Golden Land solution that I personally make is that it technically isn't hidden. I mean, it's not something you would notice at first glance, but if you solve the riddle, then you'll magically see it. A "hidden passage" that is Knox heresy is one that you wouldn't find ever, even if you exhaust all of the clues that you have :/
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Old 2010-06-05, 19:06   Link #10827
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Crap, I forgot about this Red Truth:

Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games.

Well, I guess we have a problem with the "baby from 19 years ago being the culprit in Episode 5" theory, unless the baby is someone other than Battler.

Or the baby is just the Illusion of the Witch and Battler has nothing to do with the crimes.
I don't think the baby from 19 years before is Battler. I'm more of the idea that it's Beatrice.
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Old 2010-06-05, 19:14   Link #10828
DgBarca
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I posted the theory of Kanon=EP1culprit and...
Knox 8th...
There isn't any clues, it's just interpretation...(knox 9th)
But...is there clues for Kanon=Culprit ? If clues can be found with interpretation X, then there is an infinity of clues, and it's useless.
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Old 2010-06-05, 19:34   Link #10829
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Considering Ryukishi's previous work I don't think we can expect any real clue about who is the culprit in the very first episode.
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Old 2010-06-05, 19:44   Link #10830
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think the baby from 19 years before is Battler. I'm more of the idea that it's Beatrice.
This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

I'm not sure about the person named "Beatrice" being the culprit, unless Beatrice is indirectly responsible for what happens.
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Old 2010-06-05, 19:47   Link #10831
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

I'm not sure about the person named "Beatrice" being the culprit, unless Beatrice is indirectly responsible for what happens.
But I can interpret the red text this way.

Her mission was for entertainment along with being pushed by Lambda (for the duration of the first 4 eps). Well yea, she can't kill for fun NOW because she's in a friggin coma. After she gave up, that's when she wanted Battler to simply solve the mystery,

Or that "this child" means someone else, her name "Beatrice" wasn't used in the phrase. But oh boy if it was, I can come up with another interpretation
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Old 2010-06-05, 20:07   Link #10832
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
But I can interpret the red text this way.

Her mission was for entertainment along with being pushed by Lambda (for the duration of the first 4 eps). Well yea, she can't kill for fun NOW because she's in a friggin coma. After she gave up, that's when she wanted Battler to simply solve the mystery,

Or that "this child" means someone else, her name "Beatrice" wasn't used in the phrase. But oh boy if it was, I can come up with another interpretation
Sorry but... Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

In other words the most basic assumption in episode 1 that Beatrice murdering people as a game has been removed from consideration. The epitaph as her motive has also been removed from consideration. That led me to come up with my theory that she's being controlled by someone else.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...83581&page=537

The other part of your Blue that Lambda was pushing her would still work kind of. She just has to have a piece she controls on the board.

EDIT: Lately I've been looking at Beatrice's story like a tragedy rather than something malicious. If she was the person to write the message Bottles (and most people think she is) than she wants people to find out what really happened. Turn the chessboard over If she really wanted people to find the truth than why would she be the murderer? Even if you do think she's someone disguised as her there is still this contradiction. The murderer would want everything to be covered up. All of the physical evidence was destroyed in the disaster. Other than these stories there is nothing to point to who the murderer is. I don't think Beatrice is the murderer I think she's a tragic heroine who wanted the murderer to be caught. She's doomed to hope forever that the case will be solved. I think her "endless magic" is that emotion of hoping her sadness will end.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-05 at 20:28.
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Old 2010-06-05, 20:26   Link #10833
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sorry but... Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

In other words the most basic assumption in episode 1 that Beatrice murdering people as a game has been removed from consideration. The epitaph as her motive has also been removed from consideration. That led me to come up with my theory that she's being controlled by someone else.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...83581&page=537

The other part of your Blue that Lambda was pushing her would still work kind of. She just has to have a piece she controls on the board.

EDIT: Lately I've been looking at Beatrice's story like a tragedy rather than something malicious. If she was the person to write the message Bottles (and most people think she is) than she wants people to find out what really happened. Turn the chessboard over If she really wanted people to find the truth than why would she be the murderer? Even if you do think she's someone disguised as her there is still this contradiction. The murderer would want everything to be covered up. All of the physical evidence was destroyed in the disaster. Other than these stories there is nothing to point to who the murderer is. I don't think Beatrice is the murderer I think she's as a tragic heroine who wanted the murderer to be caught. She's doomed to hope forever that the case will be solved. I think her "endless magic" is that emotion of hoping her sadness will end.
This is what I was saying a long time ago:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7798

That perhaps one of the characters is being manipulated by another, not necessarily out of "brainwashing," but out of bribery.
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Old 2010-06-05, 21:40   Link #10834
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sorry but... Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

In other words the most basic assumption in episode 1 that Beatrice murdering people as a game has been removed from consideration. The epitaph as her motive has also been removed from consideration. That led me to come up with my theory that she's being controlled by someone else.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...83581&page=537
Something I've also been saying for a while. The way Beato acts throughout all the Episodes, there's often small cracks in her trolling personality, where she seems impatient with Battler or annoyed at something beyond him, and is only lashing out at him because he's there at the time.
Beato knows everything that happens. This means that she plays a crucial role in the murderer's schemes, since they would also have to factor in all the other schemes that are taking place. But it doesn't make sense for her to be the mastermind. If she was the mastermind, why would she be playing this game to begin with? If she wanted to kill them all, why would she give Battler the chance to defeat her?
It doesn't make sense to me anymore for her to be the culprit.

If the Meta-Beato is Shannon, then she could easily be caught up in the culprit's schemes, if the culprit is one of the siblings, like Rosa, or George, who's overbearing love for her could force her into such a situation.
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Old 2010-06-05, 21:48   Link #10835
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Considering Ryukishi's previous work I don't think we can expect any real clue about who is the culprit in the very first episode.
You kidding? There's plenty of clues about Higurashi's culprit in the first episode.

Spoiler for higurashi:
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Old 2010-06-05, 22:03   Link #10836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: Lately I've been looking at Beatrice's story like a tragedy rather than something malicious. If she was the person to write the message Bottles (and most people think she is) than she wants people to find out what really happened. Turn the chessboard over If she really wanted people to find the truth than why would she be the murderer? Even if you do think she's someone disguised as her there is still this contradiction. The murderer would want everything to be covered up. All of the physical evidence was destroyed in the disaster. Other than these stories there is nothing to point to who the murderer is. I don't think Beatrice is the murderer I think she's a tragic heroine who wanted the murderer to be caught. She's doomed to hope forever that the case will be solved. I think her "endless magic" is that emotion of hoping her sadness will end.
That brings up an interesting point though. The message bottles are the biggest contradiction in the entire series. Up until now, it's been hard to find a convincing way for those to work outside of the Author theory.

For example, if the EP1 message bottle was indeed written in the same universe as EP1, there are only 3 times it could have been written: before the murders, during the murders, or after the murders.

If there's a bomb that goes off at midnight, "after the murders" is pretty close to impossible, unless there's a culprit who survives the bomb. However, "after the murders" doesn't make sense to me because of the Ange kakera. It's hard enough to find a motive for sending out message bottles with magic stories, but why would you miss the obvious fact that Eva survived if you're the culprit and you've already finished the murders?

"During the murders" seems almost as strange. Writing out a story as large as Umineko, even if you skimmed over it really fast, would take a great deal of time. Most characters have a lot of time unaccounted for, so it's probably possible to make this work, but it's presumably the same person in every episode. If it's not the culprit, why wouldn't they mention this massive diary to someone else, and if it is the culprit, how are they even finding the time to do this if they're busy committing at least some of the murders? Furthermore, if the Ange kakera is true, the writer wasn't even writing about what was actually happening at the time, and they wrote at least two conflicting stories.

So, looking at it this way, it seems very likely that the stories in the message bottles were written before the murders even started.
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Old 2010-06-05, 22:05   Link #10837
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

I'm not sure about the person named "Beatrice" being the culprit, unless Beatrice is indirectly responsible for what happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sorry but... Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.
I'm not really a fan of the "Beatrice is the mastermind behind the explosion" theory
but I think there's still at least a "whydunit" that is not denied by reds.

Beatrice is killing everyone out of despair.
She has nothing to gain from it, it's not really for vengeance nor for pleasure. She just wants to end it and bring everyone with her.

Suicidal people (sadly) often involve others. Either because they feel "less lonely" by leaving the mortal realm in company, or because they do not care, or because they think if it's better for them it must be better for everyone else.


and more:

Beatrice is doing it because she has no other choice.
A threat or who knows what else.

Beatrice is doing it because she's been ordered to.
Possibly under Kinzo's instructions. This implies a grave case of furniture complex.
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Old 2010-06-05, 23:11   Link #10838
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If there's a bomb that goes off at midnight, "after the murders" is pretty close to impossible, unless there's a culprit who survives the bomb. However, "after the murders" doesn't make sense to me because of the Ange kakera. It's hard enough to find a motive for sending out message bottles with magic stories, but why would you miss the obvious fact that Eva survived if you're the culprit and you've already finished the murders?

"During the murders" seems almost as strange. Writing out a story as large as Umineko, even if you skimmed over it really fast, would take a great deal of time. Most characters have a lot of time unaccounted for, so it's probably possible to make this work, but it's presumably the same person in every episode. If it's not the culprit, why wouldn't they mention this massive diary to someone else, and if it is the culprit, how are they even finding the time to do this if they're busy committing at least some of the murders? Furthermore, if the Ange kakera is true, the writer wasn't even writing about what was actually happening at the time, and they wrote at least two conflicting stories.

So, looking at it this way, it seems very likely that the stories in the message bottles were written before the murders even started.
We don't really know what is contained within all the message bottles though. Can we honestly rules out that the two that were found might be episodes 2 and 3 and not 1 and 2? Or some kind of variation of that? Or maybe even stories we've never even read like Land of the golden witch? The author is probably Beatrice I think, but I'm thinking more of why they were written and not how. If it was the person behind the whole thing writing the stories. (1 and 2 at least) it wouldn't make sense to me. It seems like a huge contradiction. We also have someone claiming that they wrote episodes 3 - 6.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not really a fan of the "Beatrice is the mastermind behind the explosion" theory
but I think there's still at least a "whydunit" that is not denied by reds.

*snip*
I'm not a fan either.


What I'm thinking of is most likely a combination of all three of the motives you just said, but I think the despair part happens later.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Beatrice is doing it because she's been ordered to.
Possibly under Kinzo's instructions. This implies a grave case of furniture complex.
Now that I think about it. Thunderbook should like this one. You were saying that you were writing something about how you think Umineko is the antithesis of Higurashi right? Well isn't a furniture complex i.e "a complex where you kill people to become human", the opposite of Takano's God complex i.e. "she kills people to be like God so she can be remembered even after death."?
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Old 2010-06-05, 23:34   Link #10839
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We don't really know what is contained within all the message bottles though. Can we honestly rules out that the two that were found might be episodes 2 and 3 and not 1 and 2? Or some kind of variation of that? Or maybe even stories we've never even read like Land of the golden witch? The author is probably Beatrice I think, but I'm thinking more of why they were written and not how. If it was the person behind the whole thing writing the stories. (1 and 2 at least) it wouldn't make sense to me. It seems like a huge contradiction. We also have someone claiming that they wrote episodes 3 - 6.
I'm still not a fan of all (or almost all) the Episodes being fictionalizations written by other people, but if any of the Episode are going to be the message bottles, it's 1, 2 or 4. 3 is the "real world" events, the real world being the world Ange lives in.
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Old 2010-06-05, 23:41   Link #10840
Renall
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We don't really know what is contained within all the message bottles though. Can we honestly rules out that the two that were found might be episodes 2 and 3 and not 1 and 2? Or some kind of variation of that? Or maybe even stories we've never even read like Land of the golden witch? The author is probably Beatrice I think, but I'm thinking more of why they were written and not how. If it was the person behind the whole thing writing the stories. (1 and 2 at least) it wouldn't make sense to me. It seems like a huge contradiction. We also have someone claiming that they wrote episodes 3 - 6.
Actually, Ange is aware of the existence of the message bottles in her world, and she is aware that they contain contradictions. I believe she or narration related to Ange remarks that the message bottles describe Eva dying, which obviously did not occur in her world. Likewise, even if ep3 is an attempt by some new author (if we believe even that) to provide a plausible world in which Eva lives, that author seems to immediately abandon the idea for ep4 and on, where Eva seems to die (or isn't put in a position where she will definitely survive, at any rate).

As chronotrig said, the entire existence of the endscrolls, message bottles, and Ange's 1998 suggest some kind of Author Theory. The bottles must have been written well in advance of the Rokkenjima Disaster (whether you believe it even HAD any murders prior to the explosion). The only other explanation is that there was a survivor (other than Eva). That leaves us asking two very weird questions:
  • If there were no other survivors, why were those message bottles written and released before the incident? Why did the author choose the particular format they did? Why was Battler so special to the writer? Why sign them "Ushiromiya Maria?"
  • If there was another survivor, who are they? Why did they never make contact with Ange or Eva? Why did they write the message bottles describing grisly mass murders in which Eva dies, when they ought to know she lived? Why sign them "Ushiromiya Maria," when Eva would know Maria was definitely incapable of writing them (and dead besides)?
None of it makes any sense unless Ange's 1998 is the only existing future. And if that were true, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the person writing them to even do so.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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