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Old 2010-06-06, 20:08   Link #7701
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Harpooned, Hooked, Speared, whatever, I wouldn't want to have that happen to me.
I'm assuming you're not going out and harassing fishermen, so the chances of that happening to you are greatly reduced.

Anyway, the guy deserved it. Sure, it's short sighted not to take better conservation efforts for that type of tuna, but what they did amounts to piracy. I don't see why these greenpeace people should be treated any different than Somali pirates.
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Old 2010-06-06, 21:31   Link #7702
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Anyway, the guy deserved it. Sure, it's short sighted not to take better conservation efforts for that type of tuna, but what they did amounts to piracy. I don't see why these greenpeace people should be treated any different than Somali pirates.
Let's compare:
Somali pirate are often poor fishmen than do what they can do to get some money.
Greenpeace peoples are using willingly violent way for ideology
I am not sure which one deserve more pity.
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Old 2010-06-06, 22:15   Link #7703
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Let's compare:
Somali pirate are often poor fishmen than do what they can do to get some money.
Greenpeace peoples are using willingly violent way for ideology
I am not sure which one deserve more pity.
that was true only when this whole piracy started. Now they are just another band of pirates.
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Old 2010-06-06, 22:46   Link #7704
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
that was true only when this whole piracy started. Now they are just another band of pirates.
The causes of which still are rooted in economic woes. The same is true of terrorism in general. Afghanistan is a very poor region of the world, and look at what's happened. It's become a hotbed of terrorism. No money means no education, and that's another major cause. The problems of course are then intertwined with their government being too weak and needing to assert itself in a manner that does not cause violent uprisings, which again is a difficult cause. Mix this with the fact that due to these conditions you already have a number of groups trying to take over the government for themselves. You can look at any number of regions and attribute what I just said to why the problem exists.

Afghanistan - A man hands you a rocket and tells you that if you shoot it at this specific target, he will pay you. This is more money than you'd every get for a while, and your family is starving to death. What do you do?

Somalia - You hear of these men who go out to sea and acquire food, money, and all that. You need to feed yourself and your family, and cannot see another way to acquire sustenance. What do you do?

Now, if you were educated and grew up in better conditions, the answer would not be to take the violent approach and find some other means. Many of the people in these regions are illiterate and have no connection to the outside world.

Greenpeace however is full of literate, educated people from countries whose conditions are mostly stable. That's the distinction I think ganbaru and Kamui were trying to make in their posts.
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Old 2010-06-06, 23:23   Link #7705
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The problem with your argument yoropa, is many 'terrorists' are not poor people, nor do they come from poor families. Take Osama Bin Ladin for example. He's a millionaire.
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Old 2010-06-06, 23:39   Link #7706
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
The problem with your argument yoropa, is many 'terrorists' are not poor people, nor do they come from poor families. Take Osama Bin Ladin for example. He's a millionaire.
Of course the one comming from poor family form the lowest level( if they even maken part ) of the organisation, doing suicide bombing or attacking NATO troup the real terrorism work. Osama Bin Ladin and the others more educated are at the top of the organisation .

There's a difference betweem the ''terrorists''( the expandables ones) doing the dirty work and the other ones ( more educated for example) than simply command the organisation.
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Old 2010-06-07, 00:37   Link #7707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Of course the one comming from poor family form the lowest level( if they even maken part ) of the organisation, doing suicide bombing or attacking NATO troup the real terrorism work. Osama Bin Ladin and the others more educated are at the top of the organisation .

There's a difference betweem the ''terrorists''( the expandables ones) doing the dirty work and the other ones ( more educated for example) than simply command the organisation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4687121.stm

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Suicide_bombing


Came up with those on the first page of yahoo. Nowhere in there do I read economics as a factor for why they do what they do. I think whoever told you that economics was the primary reason, was either lying to you, or foolish. I've read more than a few stories, about these people coming from good families. Obviously most are not rich, but they still come from middle class families more often than not.
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Old 2010-06-07, 01:01   Link #7708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4687121.stm

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Suicide_bombing


Came up with those on the first page of yahoo. Nowhere in there do I read economics as a factor for why they do what they do. I think whoever told you that economics was the primary reason, was either lying to you, or foolish. I've read more than a few stories, about these people coming from good families. Obviously most are not rich, but they still come from middle class families more often than not.
Homegrown terrorists - those who grew up in the west - are usually disgruntled middle class and educated guys. There's some of those in places like Afghanistan as well - some of which indeed did grew up in the west - but according to a Canadian soldier and Afghanistan veteran I had in one of my political science classes, a lot of the "grunts" are dirt poor hired guns.
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Old 2010-06-07, 10:27   Link #7709
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Singapore (June 6): A Swiss national who works in Singapore was charged in court yesterday with trespass and vandalism of a mass rapid transit (MRT) train at the Changi depot.

Oliver Fricker, 32, a business consultant, was charged with cutting the fence of the depot and damaging public property. He was also charged with vandalism by spraying paint on two carriages of an MRT train, and trespass for entering the Changi depot without permission some time between the late night of May 16 and the early hours of May 17.

Also named on the charge sheet was British citizen Lloyd Dane Alexander. It is not known if he is still in Singapore, and the police are still investigating.

The duo is believed to have cut through the fence of the depot. Once inside, they spray-painted graffiti on one side of a train. The graffiti had the words "McKoy Banos", believed to be the signature of two people who have also vandalised trains in other countries.

Anyone convicted of vandalism in Singapore faces a maximum punishment of up to three years' jail or a fine of up to S$2,000 (US$1,411), and between three and eight strokes of caning.

Those who trespass into a protected place face a maximum fine of S$1,000 as well as a two-year jail term.

Fricker's case will be mentioned again on June 21. In the meantime, he has been released on a S$100,000 bail. His passport remains impounded to prevent him from leaving the country.

THE STRAITS TIMES, CHANNEL NEWS ASIA
Michael Fay, Part 2?

Meanwhile, the reaction on the ground:

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Old 2010-06-07, 11:05   Link #7710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Homegrown terrorists - those who grew up in the west - are usually disgruntled middle class and educated guys. There's some of those in places like Afghanistan as well - some of which indeed did grew up in the west - but according to a Canadian soldier and Afghanistan veteran I had in one of my political science classes, a lot of the "grunts" are dirt poor hired guns.
And as a counter to you, two personal friends I've known since HS who fought in both countries for the Army/Marine Corps, the terrorists come from all economic backgrounds. More than a few weren't even Afghanistan or Iraqi citizens.

But I digress. We will just have to disagree on this.
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Old 2010-06-07, 11:13   Link #7711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Homegrown terrorists - those who grew up in the west - are usually disgruntled middle class and educated guys. There's some of those in places like Afghanistan as well - some of which indeed did grew up in the west - but according to a Canadian soldier and Afghanistan veteran I had in one of my political science classes, a lot of the "grunts" are dirt poor hired guns.
Like the last Mumbai gunman.....he came from a very poor area in Pakistan, and the Taliban gave him a one-time payment to kill innocent people.

However, there is a biography named "Story of a Part-Time Indian" who quoted that "poverty teaches people how to be poor", so which means that being poor comes with the mentality of not being able to do anything except give up your life. I am not surprised that people will go to any extent just to earn something called "money".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Well, at least this guy didn't steal a traffic light.
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Old 2010-06-07, 11:24   Link #7712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Like the last Mumbai gunman.....he came from a very poor area in Pakistan, and the Taliban gave him a one-time payment to kill innocent people.

However, there is a biography named "Story of a Part-Time Indian" who quoted that "poverty teaches people how to be poor", so which means that being poor comes with the mentality of not being able to do anything except give up your life. I am not surprised that people will go to any extent just to earn something called "money".



Well, at least this guy didn't steal a traffic light.
When I was in Singapore last April some damn kids were spitting on the street and threw their trash on the sidewalk as they walked by that business school near Orchard road. I just came fresh from the MTR all the way from the airport so I was thinking to myself that the draconic Singapore I knew 10 years ago is no longer around.
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Old 2010-06-07, 11:38   Link #7713
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
When I was in Singapore last April some damn kids were spitting on the street and threw their trash on the sidewalk as they walked by that business school near Orchard road. I just came fresh from the MTR all the way from the airport so I was thinking to myself that the draconic Singapore I knew 10 years ago is no longer around.
Eh they are just damn lucky that the street patrol or NEA officials didn't get bored and do a random spot check. The fine is hefty: minimum is $500 I think. Besides, Orchard Road (I am guessing the Biz school is none other than SMU) gets rather crowded every now and then, so police patrols are sometimes done by plainclothes.

Those kids are just act punks. I was confronted once by a similar group of small kids "claiming that I was looking at them" (wtf, why would I want to stare at them for their retro style?). I simply stared down and asked, "Which one?"

One of them threatened me to a fight. I simply held up my handphone and showed them that I was calling the police, and told them to scram. Luckily there is still sensible ones in the group to drag that idiot away ; given my lack of regard for human life, I wouldn't have hesitated to push him onto the busy road as a roadkill.

Singapore has changed, but apparently the youngsters are still as stupid. In a recent news report about littering, NEA officials still book the litterbugs despite them being in numbers and the males acting threatening to the officials. Not only they came up with dumb arguments like , "Don't know." , "It was already there when I came here.", etc, some of them even try to cajole the officer into closing an eye.

So much for the 8th core value.

EDIT : I just noticed that the cameraman spelt "graffiti" wrongly with an extra "I".

DOUBLE EDIT : I am not sure if this belongs here, but given the element of seriousness of Japanese Politics beneath its humourous reporting, I shall put it here -


NSFW Sankaku : LDP in Evangelion Cosplay Appeal


Quote:
The LDP has become so desperate they are now fielding a candidate willing to engage in on stage Evangelion cosplay (on the left), saying “With this cosplay, I’d like you to think the LDP has changed.”

Interestingly, the wording of his statement could also be read as “I’d like you to think the LDP is strange…”

Takaaki Mitsuhashi, an obscure 40-year-old economics writer and admitted 2ch denizen, is running for office amidst the remains of the LDP, the web of political dynasties which has run Japan in the post-war period.

In a publicity stunt to attract attention to his campaign, he recently held a “cosplay party” in which 200 cosplayers had a jolly time indulging in karaoke, headed up by himself – whether this strategy will have any effect remains to be seen, but ridicule and raillery on his native 2ch were instantaneous.

It seems he managed 5 lines in a sports tabloid – not the most useful of media splashes.

Unfortunately, it has been the LDP pressing the hardest for censorship of anime and manga, ironically enough proposing legislation which could see Evangelion condemned as hardcore child pornography for its treatment of sexual themes – running some eccentric as a fancy dress candidate seems unlikely to fool anyone actually likely to take any form of cosplay seriously.

Previously the LDP dug up a former idol noted for her nude posing as a candidate, so it seems anything is now possible with the ruined party.
Looks like the Diet is starving for attention from the Japanese netizens.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-06-07 at 11:58.
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Old 2010-06-07, 11:55   Link #7714
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
And as a counter to you, two personal friends I've known since HS who fought in both countries for the Army/Marine Corps, the terrorists come from all economic backgrounds. More than a few weren't even Afghanistan or Iraqi citizens.
None of this is news to me, which is why I never tried to argue that they're all in it for the money. I'm just saying that some portion of them are local hired guns who are joining in because they're poor and desperate.
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Old 2010-06-07, 12:00   Link #7715
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
When I was in Singapore last April some damn kids were spitting on the street and threw their trash on the sidewalk as they walked by that business school near Orchard road. I just came fresh from the MTR all the way from the airport so I was thinking to myself that the draconic Singapore I knew 10 years ago is no longer around.
Funny you should mention littering. Front-page news in Monday's paper:

Tougher now for litterbugs to escape
Quote:
Singapore (June 7): Years of effort against littering have not stamped out the problem, so the authorities embarked on a survey to find out why, and to help them formulate intensive new measures.

Based on the poll of 4,500 people, there will now be more uniformed officers prowling the streets for litterbugs, more bins with ashtrays and heightened public shaming of inveterate offenders.

The most significant changes to anti-littering laws in a decade come as the befouling of Singapore's streets and waterways have grown worse in recent years, exacerbated by an influx of foreign residents bringing with them different social norms.

Since 2005, the number of littering offenders caught has increased 10-fold to 41,400 last year. The study exposed worrying trends in people's attitudes to littering. It found that though one in four people recognised it was an anti-social act, they would still litter if, for instance, there was no bin nearby, or out of laziness or habit.

THE STRAITS TIMES
I have my problems with the choice of words used but, ah well, what's been published is published.
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Old 2010-06-07, 12:08   Link #7716
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Funny you should ask. Front-page news in Monday's paper.

Tougher now for litterbugs to escape

I have my problems with the choice of words used but, ah well, what's published been published.
I am betting some of the NEA officials read the Sunday Times report and the lower ranking ones got coffee-sessions with their superiors. The Singapore Government never fails to take immediate action - though they can be really painful sometimes.

Anyway, those aren't enough. There is a small trick I always like to use : wear my bag on one side, and when the knee bends on that side, I drop a litter. If it can be torn into smaller bits, I will do it so as to be inconspicuous. Had done that for 5-6 years and never caught once.

Of course, it is good to see that they have more bins around so I don't have to hold my litter in my hand or pocket. Wish they are bigger though, and kept more inwards to the bus stands so they don't raise a huge stink after it rains.

Then again, we could fix GPS transponders to every bin in Singapore so it can be linked to the Iphone or any similar GPS device......
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Old 2010-06-07, 15:03   Link #7717
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I see nothing wrong with Singapore's response to assholes who dirty public places or spray graffiti everywhere. Here's a comparison:

A couple of years ago in NYC, the 13yo son of an Israeli immigrant broke into an MTA Long Island Railroad yard in Long Island City (it's in Queens, right across the East River from Manhattan, right where the tunnels open) to spray graffiti. The little douche got exactly what he deserved, but thousands of commuters including myself got delayed for hours while the workers scraped up his remains. A few weeks later, his mother sued the MTA, claiming that his death was their fault for not making sure that the perimeter fence did not have holes in it. Of course, the MTA is run by suckers, who settled the suit and as usual, commuters have to end up paying with higher fares.

The worst part was the idiots who claimed that the kid did not deserve to die for spraying graffiti, missing the point that he was stupid enough to do it on a busy, well-used section of railway. If only the courts were allowed to punish that money-grubbing b---- for raising a punk.

In Singapore: Graffiti --> jail, fine, and whipping
In USA: Graffiti --> profit (for punk's mom).
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Last edited by justsomeguy; 2010-06-07 at 15:14.
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Old 2010-06-07, 15:20   Link #7718
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I wish the government in Canada was as fast as that in Singapore.

@Justsomeguy
True, it's profit; but it was a rather big price to pay; still didn't mean that she should had have any case. You don't sue gun companies if you shoot yourself in the head believing the safety was on.

It think a lot of the litter problem just comes with laziness. Most people don't like keeping a bunch of garbage in their pockets and some are too lazy to find a bin; though sometimes we don't know where the bins are Public awareness will help.
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Old 2010-06-07, 16:25   Link #7719
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
I see nothing wrong with Singapore's response to assholes who dirty public places or spray graffiti everywhere. Here's a comparison:

A couple of years ago in NYC, the 13yo son of an Israeli immigrant broke into an MTA Long Island Railroad yard in Long Island City (it's in Queens, right across the East River from Manhattan, right where the tunnels open) to spray graffiti. The little douche got exactly what he deserved, but thousands of commuters including myself got delayed for hours while the workers scraped up his remains. A few weeks later, his mother sued the MTA, claiming that his death was their fault for not making sure that the perimeter fence did not have holes in it. Of course, the MTA is run by suckers, who settled the suit and as usual, commuters have to end up paying with higher fares.

The worst part was the idiots who claimed that the kid did not deserve to die for spraying graffiti, missing the point that he was stupid enough to do it on a busy, well-used section of railway. If only the courts were allowed to punish that money-grubbing b---- for raising a punk.

In Singapore: Graffiti --> jail, fine, and whipping
In USA: Graffiti --> profit (for punk's mom).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
I wish the government in Canada was as fast as that in Singapore.

@Justsomeguy
True, it's profit; but it was a rather big price to pay; still didn't mean that she should had have any case. You don't sue gun companies if you shoot yourself in the head believing the safety was on.

It think a lot of the litter problem just comes with laziness. Most people don't like keeping a bunch of garbage in their pockets and some are too lazy to find a bin; though sometimes we don't know where the bins are Public awareness will help.
The reason why our police and government can mobilise so quickly is because of the size of our country : it is so bloody small. Combined with the large amount of service and high-value products we export, the amount of money we have humungous : the National Environmental Agency spends 3 million (or was that billion? can't remember) a year to keep our country clean and green.

Besides, our legal system is written with certain loopholes so that it can be flexed to suit logical sense, so the CJ can tell the mum to fly a kite if that happens.

I do remember the Michael Fay case where the Americans were protesting about the caning being barbaric, and Clinton supposedly asked Singapore to cancel it. We only reduced the number of strokes "in favour of keeping cordial relations with the United States" : he still got spanked.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-06-07, 17:55   Link #7720
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I do remember the Michael Fay case where the Americans were protesting about the caning being barbaric, and Clinton supposedly asked Singapore to cancel it. We only reduced the number of strokes "in favour of keeping cordial relations with the United States" : he still got spanked.
I remember hearing about that.


It's really fantastic that the Media and the politicians got all outraged at some punk kid getting smacked up for acting like a shit head in other countries. Weren't there more serious matters to worry about?
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