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Old 2010-04-12, 21:15   Link #2021
Genix
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, there's something called "Last Episode", which is basically a delayed good end to the Fate route, but it's only on the PS2 (Realta Nua) version, although there does exist a patch to add it to the PC version.
Oh I see, that could be it.

Now the following:
1) In the game, they left me sorta ambiguous as to if whether there has been or not a "true" winner of in the Holy Grail War, that is, if a Master was ever successful in one of the prior 3 HGWs and got his or her wish granted by the Great Grail. Just wondering if somebody can clarify me on this.
2) This is to do with Zelretch's ability: As he can use his magic to enable him to travel through infinity possibilities of parallel worlds, does that mean that there's also an infinity number of Zelretch, from many other worlds, also doing the same thing?
3) It's a bit too obvious, but that was Rider passing off as Tohsaka in Shiro's dream in HF's route, right?

That's all got for now.
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Old 2010-04-12, 22:04   Link #2022
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Genix View Post
Now the following:
Well, these should probably be in the FAQ, really, but meh.

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1) In the game, they left me sorta ambiguous as to if whether there has been or not a "true" winner of in the Holy Grail War, that is, if a Master was ever successful in one of the prior 3 HGWs and got his or her wish granted by the Great Grail. Just wondering if somebody can clarify me on this.
No, there hasn't, at least as far as I am aware (from reading various sources). The fourth war ended without a winner, since Kiritsugu destroyed the Grail, the first war definitely ended without a true winner (since it only involved the three original families (Tohsaka, Einsbern, Makiri), and there weren't enough spirits to actually create the Grail), the third one failed, I believe, because of the Einsberns summoning Avenger and the second one failed because of flaws in the rules that had to be ironed out.

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2) This is to do with Zelretch's ability: As he can use his magic to enable him to travel through infinity possibilities of parallel worlds, does that mean that there's also an infinity number of Zelretch, from many other worlds, also doing the same thing?
Well, each Zelretch is different, so not all Zelretches will have obtained the second magic (as a comparison, consider Rin post-HF vs. Rin in other timelines), and indeed there will be many timelines where Zelretch doesn't exist at all. However, since there are at least three different timelines (Fate, UBW, HF) that correspond to the FSN universe (where Zeltrech is known to exist and to possess the second magic), and probably many more, it seems likely that there is indeed a large (and perhaps infinite) number of Zelretches jumping between worlds, each with a different 'home' universe.

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3) It's a bit too obvious, but that was Rider passing off as Tohsaka in Shiro's dream in HF's route, right?
Yeah. She has Rider's eyes.
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Old 2010-06-02, 02:56   Link #2023
Jarmel
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Just finished Heaven's Feel and wanted to comment on my opinion.

I understand the emotion behind the arc, I really do, but I still can't like it. Shirou turned his back not on his ideals, but himself. He negated something he built his whole life around, nearly died every night for, and scarred into his memory as he watched people die around him. The most natural ending is the one where he indeed does let Rin kill Sakura and it seems it's a bit of a cheat that they force you to follow the other route. I also have a problem with how they pretty much magically upgrade Shirou unlike UBW where the man has to actually do some real training instead of the BS projection in this arc where he just "gets" the knowledge from Archer, although they did tone down what Shirou could do. The servants themselves also seemed to take a huge hit in this arc compared to the other ones.

Now onto the side characters, I like Sakura the least of all the heroines in the game because she isn't one. As some other people have pointed out, she just drags everybody into the mess. That of course is natural for her, in regards to her upbringing, but again I think she doesn't really qualify as a heroine. I had a little bit of an issue with Saber in that she really doesn't show any emotion even in the end while Berserker, the one who was insane in the beginning, recognized Ilya and screwed himself up. I'm again fine with it as it makes sense but personally don't like it. Rin also wimped out but they built that up so it was fine however pretty much nobody sticked to their convictions in this arc. Yes being an adult means making sacrifices or compromises however giving exceptions because it benefits you is somewhat hypocritical in my viewpoint.
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Old 2010-06-02, 08:05   Link #2024
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Shirou never actually wanted to save everyone at the cost of a few. when he had to choose between the one he loved and everyone else he couldnt make the choice where he had to sacrifice the one he loved. he realized that the thing he wanted was to protect the ones close to him. Thats what makes Shirous ideals different from Kiritsugus ideals.
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Old 2010-06-02, 08:22   Link #2025
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by HanyuuChan View Post
Shirou never actually wanted to save everyone at the cost of a few. when he had to choose between the one he loved and everyone else he couldnt make the choice where he had to sacrifice the one he loved. he realized that the thing he wanted was to protect the ones close to him. Thats what makes Shirous ideals different from Kiritsugus ideals.
That's the thing. He used the analogy of the bank robber(or something similar) and he wanted to save pretty much everybody. He thing is that he even turned away from that ideal to essentially save one and ignore the many. He still betrayed his ideal even when it was different than Kiritsugis. In Heaven's Feel he couldn't go through his principles because it was too inconvienent for him.
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Old 2010-06-02, 08:27   Link #2026
orangejuicetang
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Fate Shirou- Save everybody!
UBW Shirou- Save everybody. Or at least as much people as possible. And then next time I'll save everybody.
Archer/Kiritsugu- Save as many people as possible
HF Shirou- Save those close to me > Save everybody else > other stuff
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Old 2010-06-02, 10:22   Link #2027
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however giving exceptions because it benefits you is somewhat hypocritical in my viewpoint.
And also part of being human.
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Old 2010-06-02, 11:13   Link #2028
Jarmel
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And also part of being human.
Yes it's human and so from that standpoint, HF is probably the most realistic arc. The thing though with Shirou is that he's broken and pretty much insane from the get go. HF tries to make him out to be a regular person when it's clear he never was. The fire didn't change him, it pretty much is him. His driving force all the way to before FS/N is guilt and that guilt is part of what made him so obstinate and self sacrificing. That's one thing Fate and UBW got right in that they showed how screwed up Shirou is.
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:04   Link #2029
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No, you are completely wrong.

Yes, Shirou is not 'normal', but what the fire gave him was an inability to think of himself. HF Shirou is no different, fundamentally than any of the other Shirous. He was simply forced into a situation where his real wish and his 'ideal' came into conflict.

If you watch what Shirou does in the first two routes and at the beginning of HF, and indeed if you listen to Rin talking about Archer, it's clear that Shirou's true wish is quite simple. He simply doesn't like seeing people upset or hurt. That is why Archer is so damn broken, even though in reality he has probably save countless lives in his role as a Counter Guardian. He simply can't cope with it because he doesn't see the happiness that he brings, he only sees the sadness. Of course, in HF, he comes to this realisation, and decides to protect Sakura. Yes, he throws off the ideal, but his ideal isn't really what defines him, it is his wish to protect people, and he does that in HF as much, if not more so, than he does in the other routes.

At no point in the game does Shirou ever implement the "kill one to save many" idea. He lets Shinji go in Fate and in UBW, even though he knows how Shinji is, and he saves Ilya's life in Fate even though she had been trying to kill him seconds earlier. Similarly, in HF he saves the woman Rider bites even though it means letting Zouken (who he can tell is a danger) go (he couldn't have killed him anyway, of course, but he doesn't know that at the time). Fate Shirou and UBW Shirou can hold onto their ideal because they don't have anything to truly test it. Shirou lets go of Saber, yes, but he didn't really have a choice. He proves quite conclusively prior to that that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect her, and he proves the same with Rin in UBW. Sakura in HF is no different, it's just that he has to go further to protect her.

Also, note that, at the time, Sakura has done nothing wrong, to his knowledge. When Rin says to him that Sakura will eventually go mad and kill people, he accepts that, if she does, he'll have to kill her first. At that point in the game, all Shirou has done is to decide to give Sakura a chance. That is entirely consistent with how he acts in the other two routes (towards genuine villains like Shinji, even) and fits perfectly with his original ideal, which is to save everyone. UBW Shirou eventually accepted that this was an impossibility, and may well have killed Sakura, but HF Shirou had not. He is still stuck on the idea that he can protect Sakura and the innocent people she might kill, and he follows through with it. Later on, as he falls more and more deeply in love with her, he decides that he doesn't care if she's the shadow, he wants to be with her anyway.

In my view, the point where he abandons his ideals is not the first decision not to kill Sakura but the second one. At that point, he knows that she's a genuine danger and that she has killed people (albeit accidentally) and he simply cannot bring himself to kill her, because she means too much to him. But, by that point he's gone through a hell of a lot of character development and has spent the last four days believing he has cast off his ideals, which softens him up for the situation where he genuinely has to do so. At the time of MoS, he is still thinking "I will save everyone", but over the next four days his thought processes gradually change from "well, I love Sakura, and I want to be with her, but I also have to protect everyone else if she goes crazy" to "I will protect Sakura no matter what, and then I will save as many others as I can afterwards".
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Old 2010-06-03, 09:01   Link #2030
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
*Snip*
HF Shirou obviously starts out similar but at the end is definitely different than Fate or UBW Shirou but that pretty much goes without saying.

I was never arguing about his goal of being a superhero as they made it clear that he wants to save everyone and a superhero can only save people who the superhero has chosen to save. He however doesn’t even follow this in HF as he chooses Sakura over the people in the town in the end (and even Saber which Nasu forces down your throat) as he would rather take an almost guaranteed risk of causing a similar disaster to happen so he could have a slight chance to save Sakura. The only reason the disaster didn’t happen was because Ilya stepped in and pretty much saved everybody’s skins, something Shirou clearly didn’t expect.

He never really was forced into a corner to specifically kill anyone in those choices. Shinji in Fate and UBW was just a scumbag and as long as Rider was out then Shirou most likely thought Shinji would give up. Shinji was also Shirou’s friend (prior anyway) so it wasn’t just a simple matter of killing him. In UBW he had no idea that Shinji would get his hands on Gilgamesh. Ilya throughout all three routes he views her as just a kid and somebody who really shouldn’t have been involved in the whole affair. The difference is in that in HF he’s not just placing himself in danger but the entire town and he knows it. The first two routes there isn’t any conflict because the people he’s protecting are needed to save the world while in the third route the person he’s protecting has a very good chance of destroying the world. So the pure act of him protecting someone in HF is ultimately selfish but still very human.

I never said that he should have gone the MoS route because as you said, he didn’t know all the details but rather it’s the second choice that is somewhat defining. The MoS route was possibilities which I could see UBW Shirou taking but again that’s fine. He in that choice clearly rejected everything he had built his life around up to that point and as Sakura said, she pretty much broke him.

I very much like how one of the Tiger Dojo phrases the arcs in that Fate and UBW are the setting up of a question(that of does Shirou want to be a superhero and how far is he willing to go) and HF is one of the possible answers.
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Old 2010-06-04, 08:24   Link #2031
Endscape
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Regarding Zouken in UBW, I know that even though Gilgamesh destroyed all his worms, he does survive worse in HF.

However, he was actually awake those times. When Kirei exorcised him, Sakura destroyed his heart worms, he had consciously try to survive, In UBW, when Gil smashed the worms he was asleep, right? meaning he couldn't focus on saving himself.
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Old 2010-06-08, 09:42   Link #2032
willyvereb
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Regarding Zouken in UBW, I know that even though Gilgamesh destroyed all his worms, he does survive worse in HF.

However, he was actually awake those times. When Kirei exorcised him, Sakura destroyed his heart worms, he had consciously try to survive, In UBW, when Gil smashed the worms he was asleep, right? meaning he couldn't focus on saving himself.
Why would he need to sleep anyway? Also that's why the Boundary Fields are for. There's no chance they could sneak in without Zouken noticing. In short he escaped and left some worms there. Routes other than HF Sakura continues her horrible life or even worse after the Grail gets dismantled. Imagine a Zouken who lost his reason to live and use Sakura as solely a tool to exhaust his sadistic desires on...on the other hand you better not.

Also I like HF exactly because Shirou lets his ideals go. Or more like he reforms it. He learns to have priorities and to care about himself. It may sound strange after what he puts his body through to save Sakura but he do learn to treasure himself. Sakura gives him a reason to see some worth in himself, something he didn't really do in the other routes. In that essence HF "cures" Shirou and makes him a much more healthy man. He's still incredible but knows how to rely on others and knows where to exactly put his strength. Shirou grows up, something which Archer and Kiritsugu never really did. Because of their own childish view they turned into inhuman people. Although Kiritsugu turned into human at least thanks to Irisviel, Illya, the Grail War and last but not least to Shirou. Shirou saved him and cured his soul. I view HF a great closure especially because in the end the same happened to Shirou.
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Old 2010-06-08, 16:11   Link #2033
Cherry_Lover
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I was never arguing about his goal of being a superhero as they made it clear that he wants to save everyone and a superhero can only save people who the superhero has chosen to save.
Exactly. Shirou in HF is far more of a superhero than Shirou in MoS is. How many superheroes do you see who kill people in cold blood (or allow them to be killed in cold blood)? Hell, most of them won't even do that to a supervillain who they know is going to escape from prison and return to terrorise the city, let alone an innocent girl.

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He however doesnít even follow this in HF as he chooses Sakura over the people in the town in the end (and even Saber which Nasu forces down your throat)
What do you mean "even Saber"? It's the Sakura route, not the Saber route, so why the hell shouldn't he put Sakura (who has been a close friend for over a year) before Saber, a girl who he knew for a week and who (in HF) he only really had a professional relationship with? True, Nasu forces it down your throat, but that's because it's an attempt at hitting the player square in the gut, since we don't have any attachment to the other people in the town, and thus don't really care about their deaths.

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as he would rather take an almost guaranteed risk of causing a similar disaster to happen so he could have a slight chance to save Sakura.
What? There's no 'guarenteed' disaster that is going to happen.

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The only reason the disaster didnít happen was because Ilya stepped in and pretty much saved everybodyís skins, something Shirou clearly didnít expect.
What? The only person Ilya saved was Shirou. The world was perfectly safe regardless of whether Ilya showed up or not. All her actions did was enable Shirou (and, by extension Sakura) to have a happy end.

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He never really was forced into a corner to specifically kill anyone in those choices. Shinji in Fate and UBW was just a scumbag and as long as Rider was out then Shirou most likely thought Shinji would give up. Shinji was also Shirouís friend (prior anyway) so it wasnít just a simple matter of killing him. In UBW he had no idea that Shinji would get his hands on Gilgamesh. Ilya throughout all three routes he views her as just a kid and somebody who really shouldnít have been involved in the whole affair. The difference is in that in HF heís not just placing himself in danger but the entire town and he knows it. The first two routes there isnít any conflict because the people heís protecting are needed to save the world while in the third route the person heís protecting has a very good chance of destroying the world. So the pure act of him protecting someone in HF is ultimately selfish but still very human.
Shinji in Fate and UBW had proven quite conclusively that he had the motive to kill innocent people and, in Rider, he has the means to do so. And, yet, when Shirou had him by the neck and could easily have killed him, he let him go once the bloodfort was down. MoS Shirou would have snapped his neck there and then. UBW is indeed more dubious (because you're right that he didn't know about Gil), but he was still a potential danger, because Shirou knew full well what he was like. And, that is all that Sakura is at that point in time (to his knowledge, anyway). A potential danger. He no more has to kill Sakura to protect others in HF than he has to kill Shinji in Fate or UBW, or Ilya in Fate. And, even following the decision in the church, he still resolves to kill Sakura if she does go mad. All he is doing is following the same approach as always, taking the chance of saving everyone over the certainty of saving most.

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I never said that he should have gone the MoS route because as you said, he didnít know all the details but rather itís the second choice that is somewhat defining.
I would agree with this. The first choice was one that Fate Shirou and maybe UBW Shirou would have taken (and one that Shirou at the start of the game would have taken), in my opinion. The second choice, however, is undoubtedly one that those others would not have taken (it's notable that, unlike MoS, Nasu made sure that Shirou failed to kill Sakura that time and also that, following that option, no-one else got hurt (in the canonical endings) other than the bad guys (and Shirou himself, in the Normal end), so he did make the 'right' decision there, although it's hard to argue, from an entirely objective, non-emotional viewpoint, that it was the 'right' thing to do, unlike not following MoS which, IMO, was the 'right' thing to do based on his knowledge at the time but, from a purely objective viewpoint, was perhaps (depending on whether you take what Kotomine says at face value or look more closely at how likely Shirou actually is to win) worse for the world as a whole). So, that decision, far more than the first, shows the evolution of Shirou's human side, from a generic emotionless "ally of justice" that his father was (once) to a normal (if very kind, selfless and heroic) human being who protects what is important to him (like everyone does).

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The MoS route was possibilities which I could see UBW Shirou taking but again thatís fine.
I'm not entirely convinced he would, actually (if you replaced Sakura with Rin, anyway). But, he's definitely more likely to do so.

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He in that choice clearly rejected everything he had built his life around up to that point and as Sakura said, she pretty much broke him.
He rejected the ideal that he had spent the last ten years chasing, yes. But, that was because he never truly wanted to follow that ideal, because he simply cared too much about people to do so. HF is the only route where he realises this, but in the other two routes (even UBW) he does very little to implement the ideal where it would go against his true wishes.

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I very much like how one of the Tiger Dojo phrases the arcs in that Fate and UBW are the setting up of a question(that of does Shirou want to be a superhero and how far is he willing to go) and HF is one of the possible answers.
I think it was the thing you get for collecting all 40 tiger dojo stamps, actually, but, yeah, I agree with that.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Imagine a Zouken who lost his reason to live and use Sakura as solely a tool to exhaust his sadistic desires on...on the other hand you better not.
Actually, I don't think this would be a bad thing at all, for two reasons. Firstly, Zouken isn't particularly sadistic (no more so than the average person). He uses torture and abuse as a tool to achieve his goals, nothing more and nothing less. It's true that he does enjoy messing with people's minds, and he seems to like fucking around with Kariya a lot, but that's because he hates Kariya, for walking out on him (thereby depriving him of an heir) and then coming back ten years later and daring to lecture him on his use of magic. Without the need to train Sakura, there would be no reason to abuse her. Secondly, the only reason Zouken is alive is because he is simply unwilling to accept the idea that he will die. Once he realises that his death is inevitable and gives up searching for immortality, he will simply let himself fade away (like he does at the end of HF), which would therefore free Sakura from his control.

But, in truth, post-Fate and post-UBW Zouken will not give up on his goals and start torturing Sakura for the evulz, he will go looking for a different way to attain immortality. Most likely, he will continue to use her as an heir, and eventually attempt to get her to breed in order to produce a new heir for him to train.
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Old 2010-06-08, 18:49   Link #2034
Endscape
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Why would he need to sleep anyway? Also that's why the Boundary Fields are for. There's no chance they could sneak in without Zouken noticing. In short he escaped and left some worms there. Routes other than HF Sakura continues her horrible life or even worse after the Grail gets dismantled. Imagine a Zouken who lost his reason to live and use Sakura as solely a tool to exhaust his sadistic desires on...on the other hand you better not.
It's stated that he sleeps in the day and is active at night, just like a Dead Apostle. And why would he scatter his body into worms for, if not to sleep?

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Also I like HF exactly because Shirou lets his ideals go. Or more like he reforms it. He learns to have priorities and to care about himself. It may sound strange after what he puts his body through to save Sakura but he do learn to treasure himself. Sakura gives him a reason to see some worth in himself, something he didn't really do in the other routes. In that essence HF "cures" Shirou and makes him a much more healthy man. He's still incredible but knows how to rely on others and knows where to exactly put his strength. Shirou grows up, something which Archer and Kiritsugu never really did. Because of their own childish view they turned into inhuman people. Although Kiritsugu turned into human at least thanks to Irisviel, Illya, the Grail War and last but not least to Shirou. Shirou saved him and cured his soul. I view HF a great closure especially because in the end the same happened to Shirou.
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Well, that's your opinion, but HF Shirou does not learn to care about himself. Or rather he doesn't learn to care about himself for his own sake. If he cares about himself, it's for Sakura's sake, because if he's happy, she's happy. It's the same as before, except he substituted 'everybody else' for Sakura. It's healthier, since he won't be put into any position where he has to make any difficult decisions anymore, and even if he doesn't value himself because of himself, he still ends up valuing himself, so it's the same. Except that it's dependent on Sakura. As that bad end where Rin kills Sakura after she puts a geas on him, shows, once he gives up his ideal for Sakura put thee's no Sakura, he really loses whatever sense of self he had.

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Exactly. Shirou in HF is far more of a superhero than Shirou in MoS is. How many superheroes do you see who kill people in cold blood (or allow them to be killed in cold blood)? Hell, most of them won't even do that to a supervillain who they know is going to escape from prison and return to terrorise the city, let alone an innocent girl.
You say that because you're a Sakura fan. Killing Sakura in cold blood isn't righteous, but letting innocent people die because of her isn't righteous either. In that case, you do what is most righteous, which would be, from an objective point of view, killing Sakura. If a superhero is someone who does the righteous thing, then MoS Shirou is more righteous than HF Shirou. The reason it's a Bad End is because it goes against the theme of the route, which is not to be righteous, but to be with Sakura. HF Shirou chooses to do what isn't right because he values Sakura more than good, evil and justice. he even says so himself in the final fight with Kotomine. Once he decided to be Sakura's hero, morality had no meaning to him, because he values Sakura so much that he threw away his morality for her.

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What do you mean "even Saber"? It's the Sakura route, not the Saber route, so why the hell shouldn't he put Sakura (who has been a close friend for over a year) before Saber, a girl who he knew for a week and who (in HF) he only really had a professional relationship with? True, Nasu forces it down your throat, but that's because it's an attempt at hitting the player square in the gut, since we don't have any attachment to the other people in the town, and thus don't really care about their deaths.
You disqualified your own argument. If Shirou should value things based on accumulated time, then he should kill Sakura since he believed in his ideal for over 10 years. Yes, you can say it wasn't his real ideal but he bled for that ideal fake or not for over 10 years, and he put Sakura, who he knew for a year above that. Nasu forces it down our throats as a tearjer, yes.

The poit isn't how much time Shirou spends with anyone. It's that he made the decision that no matter how long he spent believing in something or what he gave up for it, Sakura is more important to him than any of that. It isn't to be admired or respected because he threw that away, it's for love. His love for Sakura is more important than anything else. he would do anything, anything at all if it's for Sakura's benefit.
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Old 2010-06-09, 02:42   Link #2035
orangejuicetang
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In short, opinions. Everybody has them. Why do people constantly feel the need to continue fights that have been fought dozens of times already? Neither side is ever going to change their minds.
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Old 2010-06-09, 06:32   Link #2036
willyvereb
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post

Actually, I don't think this would be a bad thing at all, for two reasons. Firstly, Zouken isn't particularly sadistic (no more so than the average person). He uses torture and abuse as a tool to achieve his goals, nothing more and nothing less. It's true that he does enjoy messing with people's minds, and he seems to like fucking around with Kariya a lot, but that's because he hates Kariya, for walking out on him (thereby depriving him of an heir) and then coming back ten years later and daring to lecture him on his use of magic. Without the need to train Sakura, there would be no reason to abuse her. Secondly, the only reason Zouken is alive is because he is simply unwilling to accept the idea that he will die. Once he realises that his death is inevitable and gives up searching for immortality, he will simply let himself fade away (like he does at the end of HF), which would therefore free Sakura from his control.

But, in truth, post-Fate and post-UBW Zouken will not give up on his goals and start torturing Sakura for the evulz, he will go looking for a different way to attain immortality. Most likely, he will continue to use her as an heir, and eventually attempt to get her to breed in order to produce a new heir for him to train.
It could be but if all his attempts fail and Zouken sinks to despair then you can be sure Sakura will feel that, dearly. Zouken is sadistical and enjoys the suffering of others. Indeed, many of the tortures were needed to train Sakura but actually Zouken greatly enjoyed toying with her and tried every occasion to break her integrity and mind completely. Remember, he suffers from constant pain which slowly but surely turned him mad. Probably he enjoys to torture others to see them endure the same pain. He's certainly sick.
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Old 2010-06-09, 07:14   Link #2037
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
It's stated that he sleeps in the day and is active at night, just like a Dead Apostle. And why would he scatter his body into worms for, if not to sleep?
Perhaps, but getting trodden on when asleep tends to wake you up....

Anyway, Zouken isn't stupid. He wouldn't leave himself defenseless in that way.

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Except that it's dependent on Sakura.
Well, that's the thing about the HF ending. Sakura and Shirou are mutally dependant on each other for the time being, because both can only be happy when the other is. However, as they develop over time, they will [i]both/i] learn to think more about themselves. That, in my view, is why they work so well as a couple. Both of them can only be happy when the other is, which means that they will both sacrifice anything and everything for the other, and will both learn to live life for their own sakes, at least some of the time.

Post-HF, Shirou and Sakura will both learn to value themselves, because they want each other to be happy and the only way that can happen is if they are happy themselves.

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As that bad end where Rin kills Sakura after she puts a geas on him, shows, once he gives up his ideal for Sakura put thee's no Sakura, he really loses whatever sense of self he had.
Well, of course. Just like Sakura breaks entirely without Shirou there (in the Normal end).

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In that case, you do what is most righteous, which would be, from an objective point of view, killing Sakura.
I don't agree with this. Based on what he knew at the time, killing Sakura was wrong. She hadn't done anything and, to me, killing someone on the basis of what they might do, especially someone who has suffered as much as Sakura has, is just plain not right.

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If a superhero is someone who does the righteous thing, then MoS Shirou is more righteous than HF Shirou.
By that definition, Batman, Superman etc. are not superheroes, because they never kill people in cold blood, no matter how dangerous they may be.

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You disqualified your own argument. If Shirou should value things based on accumulated time, then he should kill Sakura since he believed in his ideal for over 10 years.
I wasn't arguing about 'accumulated time', I was just expressing my annoyance at Saber fans who can't seem to grasp the concept that it is perfectly reasonable for Shirou to put Sakura before Saber in the Sakura route. Shirou discarding his ideal is a big thing. Shirou deciding to kill (Dark) Saber to improve his chances of saving Sakura is perfectly natural, and hits the player (who has played through the other two routes, and thus has more of an attachment to Saber than Shirou does) far harder than it hits Shirou.

Saber in HF means far less to Shirou than Saber in Fate (or even in UBW) does, and the idea that killing her is somehow a massive moment in his character development is laughable. The only reason he would not have killed her at that point was if he felt for her the way that he felt for Sakura, and since it is the Sakura route, there's no reason for him to do so.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
It could be but if all his attempts fail and Zouken sinks to despair then you can be sure Sakura will feel that, dearly. Zouken is sadistical and enjoys the suffering of others. Indeed, many of the tortures were needed to train Sakura but actually Zouken greatly enjoyed toying with her and tried every occasion to break her integrity and mind completely. Remember, he suffers from constant pain which slowly but surely turned him mad. Probably he enjoys to torture others to see them endure the same pain. He's certainly sick.
I don't see this, at all. Firstly, he's tortured Sakura enough that there's nothing much he can do to her at this point anyway (other than perhaps kill her out of anger, I suppose...). As for him being sadistic, I don't see it. He tortures Sakura because he has to, and he tried to break her because that was that was part of his plan. Whilst I can see him getting pissed off and torturing her if she did something to annoy him, I don't see him doing it just to take out his despair at being unable to save himself on someone else. If anything, he'd take it out on the world at large, rather than one girl who has spent her entire life being tortured by him anyway.

Secondly, like I said, once he gives up on immortality (or accepts that he has no way of attaining it), there's no reason for him to live any more, which means that he'll just die, to relieve himself of the pain. As long as he hasn't given up on it, he's not going to start torturing Sakura for the sake of it, because that would jeopardise his plans.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-06-09 at 08:47.
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Old 2010-06-09, 10:52   Link #2038
Jarmel
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@Cherry Lover

Trust me, they get alot of flak for it too and Batman has at times considered putting down the Joker permanently. There are also superheroes such as the Punisher that aren't afraid of killing, heck there was a debate about that in the recent Marvel arc about whether they should kill Norman Osborn. UBW Shirou fits the ideal hero moreso than HF because he doesn't try to save the perperatrator while HF did. No superhero kills in cold blood but they certainly wouldn't try to save Sakura at the expense of the world. A good line from Batman Begins is "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you".

I never said he should put Saber above Sakura put he nonetheless killed someone who guarded and saved his life, something that as you can see in his dialogue was a very rough call for him. In regards to the people in the town that is where a hero and a normal person differ. A hero would care about the regular ci

The chances of Sakura going insane and pretty much wiping everyone out was pretty bloody high. She could have pretty easily wiped them all out if she had actually gone to the house before going to the cave and the chances of Shirou's plan going off without a hitch was pretty slight.

Ilya closed the grail if she hadn't then Avenger would have popped up unless Shirou had replicated Excalibur which certainly wasn't a given considering his state.

So all in all it wasn't like the chances weren't slightly against the protoganists but pretty overwhelmingly against them.

Shirou in all routes pretty much wrote Shinji off after Shinji lost his Servant. There certainly was no immediate or even apparent threat from Shinji after Rider was gone. I would certainly disagree with that as Sakura was alot more powerful, insane, and insane than Shinji or Ilya. Shinji was really only a threat because of his servants and with Ilya it certainly wasn't a kill her or die scenario that was more prevalent in the HF route with Sakura. If Shirou hadn't gotten that magical powerup near the end of HF then he would have easily been wiped out atleast by Berserk in the secound round in the forest. Near the end he states that he's on Sakura side no matter what, even knowing that she's insane so that resolution is gone.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
So, that decision, far more than the first, shows the evolution of Shirou's human side, from a generic emotionless "ally of justice" that his father was (once) to a normal (if very kind, selfless and heroic) human being who protects what is important to him (like everyone does).
I didn't like that, as being an "ally of justice" is certainly much harder than a normal human being as I'm sure any Spiderman fan will tell you. It's taking the hardest route possible that makes a superhero a superhero. Before you say though that saving Sakura was the hard route, it wasn't. Sacrificing her for not just the town would have been much harder for him and the route he took was not only stupid but suicidal. The route would have certainly had a bad end if he hadn't gotten the sudden powerup from Archer(which is another complaint I have with the route).


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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
He rejected the ideal that he had spent the last ten years chasing, yes. But, that was because he never truly wanted to follow that ideal, because he simply cared too much about people to do so. HF is the only route where he realises this, but in the other two routes (even UBW) he does very little to implement the ideal where it would go against his true wishes.
That's part of the conflict in UBW where Archer realized his ideal too late while HF Shirou rejects that ideal. This is why I don't like HF as a standalone arc as you essentially NEED UBW so Shirou starts questioning his ideals and wonder what he himself wants as well as seeing the consequences.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I think it was the thing you get for collecting all 40 tiger dojo stamps, actually, but, yeah, I agree with that.
Honestly I think he came up with an answer at the end of the UBW route as well so I would say that they provide two answers of a sort. He understands the consequences and the possibilities of his ideal but will continue anyway which is what I would consider an adult decision as well. I personally prefer the UBW's answer but I certainly see where Nasu was going with HF.
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Old 2010-06-09, 11:49   Link #2039
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
Trust me, they get alot of flak for it too and Batman has at times considered putting down the Joker permanently.
I'm not denying that. But, nevertheless, that unwillingness to kill is what makes them a superhero as opposed to an anti-hero.

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There are also superheroes such as the Punisher that aren't afraid of killing, heck there was a debate about that in the recent Marvel arc about whether they should kill Norman Osborn.
The Punisher is an anti-hero, not a superhero. And, even then, he explicitly avoids hurting innocents, even if they're in the way of him achieving his goal. And that is what Sakura is, an innocent. It's not her fault she's like that, and she hasn't hurt anyone yet. As for having a debate about killing Norman Osborn, the fact that they're even debating it, for someone who is clearly a bad guy and has hurt many people should tell you that for someone like Sakura, they wouldn't even consider the idea of killing her, at least at the time of MoS.

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UBW Shirou fits the ideal hero moreso than HF because he doesn't try to save the perperatrator while HF did. No superhero kills in cold blood but they certainly wouldn't try to save Sakura at the expense of the world. A good line from Batman Begins is "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you".
Actually, again, this isn't true. For a start, Shirou does want to save the perpetrator, even if he sometimes accepts that he can't. See Shinji for an example. Secondly, many superheroes do try to save the villains, particularly ones like Sakura (who are antagonists through no real fault of their own). Batman refusing to save Ras Al Gul at the end of Batman Begins is a case where he sees that the guy is beyond redemption, and knows he has to let him die. Sakura, OTOH, is not beyond redemption. A better example would be saving innocent people, for example the police in The Dark Knight. He would be better off killing the lot to save everyone else (or, at least, risking doing so), but he doesn't because they're good guys. Sakura falls into the same bracket, as a fundamentally good person who is being controlled or manipulated into acting against the good guys. Someone like Batman would try to save Sakura, if at all possible, and someone like Superman or Spiderman definitely would.

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I never said he should put Saber above Sakura put he nonetheless killed someone who guarded and saved his life, something that as you can see in his dialogue was a very rough call for him.
Yes, true, but it has nothing to do with his ideal, because his ideal would have required him to kill her too.

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The chances of Sakura going insane and pretty much wiping everyone out was pretty bloody high. She could have pretty easily wiped them all out if she had actually gone to the house before going to the cave and the chances of Shirou's plan going off without a hitch was pretty slight.
Shirou knew none of this at the time of MoS, and by the time he did know, there was simply no way for him to defeat her even if he tried. Saving her was just as viable an option at that point as killing her was, and it also gained him the support of Rider.

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Ilya closed the grail if she hadn't then Avenger would have popped up unless Shirou had replicated Excalibur which certainly wasn't a given considering his state.
Err, did you not watch the Normal end? That's exactly what happens. Shirou projects Excalibur and takes down the Grail.

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So all in all it wasn't like the chances weren't slightly against the protoganists but pretty overwhelmingly against them.
As they were in Fate and in UBW, and as they would have been no matter what he did. It's not even certain that Rin could kill Sakura in the church, and even if she does she will go crazy and use the Grail unless she is stopped. MoS is not a good ending, even for the town, because we have no reason to assume that Shirou was going to win other than some vague assurance from Kotomine (who is the master of making entirely factually accurate but yet utterly misleading comments in order to troll people...), who can't even be sure anyway. Zouken is (probably) still alive and has TA, so can kill Shirou trivially, Archer will go all-out to kill him (because he's now become the person Archer most wanted to avoid, and there is no longer any reason for Archer to hold back with the shadow gone) and Ilya will want to smash him to pieces the first chance she gets. IMO, he doesn't stand a chance unless Kotomine gives him Gil, and that is bound to end badly (notably, it also allows Kotomine to say "well, technically, you did win, because you were the last master" as he sits there helplessly (having never learnt UBW) watching Gil unleash the Grail on the world).

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Shirou in all routes pretty much wrote Shinji off after Shinji lost his Servant.
What about in the school in Fate? At that point, Rider is still around, and he has Shinji in a position where he could easily kill him. But, he gives him the chance to shut off the bloodfort (and then spares him when he does, even though Rider is still alive), rather than just killing him outright.

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There certainly was no immediate or even apparent threat from Shinji after Rider was gone.
Perhaps not, but MoS Shirou would have killed him anyway, just to be certain.

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I would certainly disagree with that as Sakura was alot more powerful, insane, and insane than Shinji or Ilya.
Not at the time of MoS. There was only the possibility that she would go insane, and her power didn't seem that excessive at that point. Later on, that was indeed the case, but by then saving her was probably the better option, if anything.

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Shinji was really only a threat because of his servants and with Ilya it certainly wasn't a kill her or die scenario that was more prevalent in the HF route with Sakura.
When they were fighting Ilya, it certainly seemed like a "kill her or die" scenario. And, yet, he never even considered the possibility of attacking her to defeat Berserker.

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If Shirou hadn't gotten that magical powerup near the end of HF then he would have easily been wiped out atleast by Berserk in the secound round in the forest.
Perhaps, although Shirou would likely have found a way. Also, Sakura tends to be pretty good at avoiding killing Shirou, in general.

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Near the end he states that he's on Sakura side no matter what, even knowing that she's insane so that resolution is gone.
Yes, he does that at the end. But, by that point, saving her is probably the better option, because they lack the power to outright defeat her (especially since he needs Rider's help). Besides, he accepts the possibility that Rin will kill Sakura if he's not quick enough, and he is equally determined to save the world as he is to save Sakura.

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I didn't like that, as being an "ally of justice" is certainly much harder than a normal human being as I'm sure any Spiderman fan will tell you. It's taking the hardest route possible that makes a superhero a superhero. Before you say though that saving Sakura was the hard route, it wasn't. Sacrificing her for not just the town would have been much harder for him and the route he took was not only stupid but suicidal.
The "hardest route possible" is the route which saves everyone. Abandoning everyone else for one person is an easy route, but so is abandoning one (innocent) person just because they may eventually harm others. The hard route is the one where you attempt to save everyone, which is the route that HF Shirou takes. Saying "oh, well, this person can't be saved, so I'll kill her now" is the 'easy' option. Saying "I don't care, I'm going to save everyone no matter what" is the hard option, and it's the option that a superhero would take (hence why they try so damn hard to redeem villains, even if they don't always succeed).

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The route would have certainly had a bad end if he hadn't gotten the sudden powerup from Archer(which is another complaint I have with the route).
As opposed to MoS, where he is left to fight Ilya, Rin and Gilgamesh with no allies and no power at all? If anything is a certain bad end, that is.

Plus, at the time, he had no idea how deep the problems went. As far as he was aware, it was simply a case of making sure that he killed Sakura when she went mad.

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That's part of the conflict in UBW where Archer realized his ideal too late while HF Shirou rejects that ideal. This is why I don't like HF as a standalone arc as you essentially NEED UBW so Shirou starts questioning his ideals and wonder what he himself wants as well as seeing the consequences.
What do you mean, "Archer realised his ideal too late". Archer realised the same thing that HF Shirou did, he just realised it after his death. What Shirou (in all routes) truly wants is to make people happy, and the only way he will be happy with life is when he's surrounded by people who are, themselves, happy. That is why Archer hates being a CG even though, in truth, he does save people. He hates it because he doesn't get to see the people he saves, he only sees the ones he kills. Fate and UBW Shirou never have that problem, because the people they save are, generally, the ones they can see, and doing that saves everyone else, but HF Shirou is forced to make a choice between making people happy and saving as many as possible, and he chooses the first.

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Honestly I think he came up with an answer at the end of the UBW route as well so I would say that they provide two answers of a sort. He understands the consequences and the possibilities of his ideal but will continue anyway which is what I would consider an adult decision as well. I personally prefer the UBW's answer but I certainly see where Nasu was going with HF.
Well, perhaps, although it's questionable what post-UBW Shirou would do if Rin were in a situation like the one Sakura is in in HF. But, yes, UBW Shirou accepts his ideal is unrealistic and compromises it to fit with reality (which includes the concept of having some people who he cares for more than others, like Rin), whereas HF Shirou accepts that it is unrealistic and therefore discards it because he can't accept the consequences of attempting to follow it as closely as possible (that being to become a souless, emotionless murderer who kills innocents in order to save other innocents, like Kiritsugu did).
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Old 2010-06-09, 13:55   Link #2040
willyvereb
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We're drifting to a dangerous area. The term of superhero is quite vague. But all in all they become superheroes because they have the power to do so. It mirrors in the difference between Batman and Superman. Superman is welll...Superman and possess absurdly large power compared to a normal human. Although it's interesting to note that even he didn't succeed every time and never achieved the dreamed world-peace he wanted. Batman on the other hand had the rude truth shoved down on his throat and became a more bitter and dark person. Also he vaguely knew his limits.

Shirou wanted to become someone like Superman but he refused to admit he lacks the power to do so. He does it while never realizes (Before FSN) that how inhumane is to think like that. For example we have quite a few evil Supermans in comics. Or alternate Supermans who ruled the world with iron fist. To a lesser degree even the almighty Man of Iron has the same dilemma as Shirou.

I don't like his idealism. Eventually it will kill him and leave the people who loved him in grief. His thick skull never realizes this in any route except HF. Fate Shirou will eventually face the bitterness of the world and either becomes disillusioned or sacrafices himself at relatively young. UBW shirou is aware of it and has Rin to protect him but like Fate Shirou, UBW Shirou too will end up as a tool of others. HF Shirou on the other hand learns to live like a human and have his own control over his fate. Although he probably will choose a more peaceful life. Still, if HF Shirou really decides to do something for the world then he has a best chance to succeed. Why? Because he found himself. Fate and UBW Shirou are more like a sword which needs a hand to be directed. HF Shirou on the other hand is a warrior who swings his sword in the way he wants.
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