AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-08, 01:54   Link #10901
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
I did consider that Maria did have the qualifications to write the stories but in addition to the ability and education required to write it she must also have the knowledge behind almost everything we've been presented so far. And not just knowledge but knowledge enough to write about the people, estimate how they will react, etc.

- That Kinzo is dead.
- That Natsuhi would fake his life status.
- That the Beatrice faction will be faking the murders.
- That ???? will be betraying them.
- That ???? plans to explode the family into little pieces.
- That Krauss is in deep debt.
- That Eva and Rudolf are planning to blackmail him.
- That Beatrice died in 1969. Not the magical explanation that she was set free, she must know that Beatrice really died.

And I believe these two are the hardest to overcome:
- She must know about Battler.
- She must know about Rosa and overcome her bias and emotions enough to see through to Rosa's problem with her siblings.

However, if someone told her what to write, there would be no problems. But as Renall said, I too would be doubtful that she would actually be the writer and more of a scribe. And the one who is feeding her this info would still be the one we were after anyways.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-08, 03:24   Link #10902
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Why would Maria need to know all the stuff you listed if we assume the message bottles only contain episodes 1 and 2? Oh right because of the core truth thing in your theory. I get it.

Remember only the first two were found in message bottles the rest were supposedly written afterward. The core truth may exist, but if someone on the island wrote the original two stories he may only know bits and pieces or if he knew everything he may have not told Maria about all of it to keep up the mystery. The stuff about the police investigation in episode 1's end roll is something the writer logically shouldn't know about either.

All of that is hypothetical really. I just don't think it's strictly necessary for the original writer to know all of the truth to write those two episodes. It might come up in later research. I mean really if you were involved in a disaster like that for only two days how COULD you know everything in Umineko?
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-08, 03:54   Link #10903
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Well technically speaking the Core Truth isn't really part of the author theory. It was just something that I noticed that has to be a consequence of it. If you're writing something you would normally have something like it to base your story from.

So for example when you're writing a wholly fictional story... that is if you're a well planned out writer, you need to create the whole back story to the main story. Especially if the main story slowly reveals the mystery of what happened and what happened is not totally obvious (the butler did it!). Without this you'll soon be diving into plot holes as you try to work out the illogic of the characters and the settings. (Or being shoved into a closed room by a cruel witch because of your logic error! )

In the Author's case she's writing about (to her) real people with outside-verifiable facts. Maybe Kinzo being dead and Natsuhi faking it was not verifiable but Krauss being deep in debt was. Or Battler's personality. (They could just ask his classmates for example.) The 10th twilight became an outside verifiable fact as well. The Author cannot just speculate on everything or risk being branded as false. Especially the first writer.

Then there are the non-outside-verifiable (at least we speculate) facts. Like Kinzo being dead. The author wrote in such a way as to 'leave room' for the possibility. Same with the count of people on the island, she 'left room' by avoiding a declaration of the exact number of people. She also 'left room' by making Kanon only appear at certain times to certain people. It would be a stretch, especially in a murder mystery where clues are being presented to say that everything was accidental or the writer was just winging it. Maybe in a fantasy novel like The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. 8)


Anyways, that's why I gave such a short list. They only consist of outside verifiable facts or things we know now that the author has 'prepared for' since EP1 or at least EP2. It is a list from memory though, so it may not be 100% accurate or may be missing more things Maria must know. I'm also of the opinion that Kinzo's life status was prepared for since EP1. I didn't include things like Kyrie's pregnancy or Ange's 1998 life since that stuff only started around EP3.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-08, 07:37   Link #10904
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
For all the reasons listed I believe that Maria being the writer is very improbable.

In addition it is also improbable that Maria is the scribe.

Because if Maria was the scribe then you need to imagine there's a person X who doesn't want to write it herself and decides to make Maria do it.

But here is where I see a big problem. If we assume everything so far is right, then this person X wants everyone to believe that the writer is Maria. In fact the messages in the bottle are signed "Ushiromiya Maria".
In that case why would person X tell Maria that she needs to use a different handwriting?

It is a lot more easier to think the writer isn't Maria rather than thinking there's Person X who tells Maria, who has the ability to write in different styles, to write all that stuff.
Not to mention it would make everything more difficult and you'd need to think that there was an even earlier pre-plan since Ange receives a letter (sent on October 3) as well, and I have little doubts that it had the same handwriting as the rest.

As for why this mysterious writer signs herself as "Maria Ushiromiya", there might be various reasons...

1) Her name really is "Maria Ushiromiya", she is Kinzo's secret child or secret grandchild. This might also explain why Kinzo was against Rosa's decision about the name of her child.

2) The novels do not really show reality, they don't even try to make it sound real. The novels are structured in a way to show Maria as the narrator, so obviously they are signed "Maria" in the end.
For example Ryuukishi "signed" the end of Onikakushi as "Maebara Keiichi". But of course it isn't Maebara Keiichi who wrote it, however the whole novel is meant to be interpreted as if Maebara Keiichi is the author of that whole account.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-08, 10:26   Link #10905
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
@Jan-poo:

It might also be because Maria's Beatrice was the one who wrote the letters as a sort of first-person novel. She obviously couldn't make herself the main character, since she was the "culprit" in the story, so she used the name of the other member in Mariage Sorciere instead. Unless someone has an ulterior motive for making Maria believe in witches, Maria and Beatrice are almost certainly good friends. For all we know, they might have written some together as a kind of Mariage Sorciere project.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 09:08   Link #10906
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Che... I always miss out on the fun debates when I'm off doing stupid things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And Higurashi is, within both our world, Umineko's world, and even Higurashi's world, a work of fiction.

That. That makes perfect sense.
So, it's like Higurashi and Umineko are a metaphor for how a world might be fiction within fiction within our "real" world? Is a fiction within a fiction really a fiction? Or is it as real as our world, which would be like fiction within that fictional world.
Sounds like the kind of cheesy metaphor Ryuukishi would like.

Anyway, I find Oliver has a good point; Maria is definitely a lot more intelligent than her apparent "Uuu uuu" self, and a lot more intelligent than Rosa gives her credit for, if Maria's diary's narration is to be believed. But I doubt Maria would have the creative ability, let alone the gut ability, to think out the gruesome deaths of her own family and friends. Rosa, maybe, but not people like Jessica and George, who always treat her with kindness. And definitely not her friend in witch training, Shannon.
However, the possiblity that she's a scribe, I can accept. I just find it a little more pointless. If they needed to write something so badly, why bother getting a nine-year-old to do it?
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 10:53   Link #10907
J the Drafter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Anyway, I find Oliver has a good point; Maria is definitely a lot more intelligent than her apparent "Uuu uuu" self, and a lot more intelligent than Rosa gives her credit for, if Maria's diary's narration is to be believed. But I doubt Maria would have the creative ability, let alone the gut ability, to think out the gruesome deaths of her own family and friends. Rosa, maybe, but not people like Jessica and George, who always treat her with kindness. And definitely not her friend in witch training, Shannon.
Take another look at how Maria talks when the murders start happening. She sounds gleeful. She might have trouble writing death scenarios, but the killings don't bother her.
J the Drafter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 16:06   Link #10908
KoiYuki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Age: 22
Couple pronounciation questions here.. I feel like a dip asking this stuff after knowing about Umineko so long and knowing so much about it, but..

So.. how are you supposed to pronounce Virgilia? I mean the "virgi" part.

Also, should Kanon be pronounced like kah-nohn (like the anime) or cannon?

I heard Lambda is said like the animal lamb, but is Lambdadelta's supposed to be like lahm or lamb?

And one more..
Spoiler for EP5:
__________________
KoiYuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 16:17   Link #10909
SilverSyko
The Anti-Otaku
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alberta, Canada
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to SilverSyko
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoiYuki View Post
Couple pronounciation questions here.. I feel like a dip asking this stuff after knowing about Umineko so long and knowing so much about it, but..

So.. how are you supposed to pronounce Virgilia? I mean the "virgi" part.

Also, should Kanon be pronounced like kah-nohn (like the anime) or cannon?

I heard Lambda is said like the animal lamb, but is Lambdadelta's supposed to be like lahm or lamb?

And one more..
Spoiler for EP5:
Please note this is all my personal speculation but I'm pretty confident it's all right.

Virgilia is most likely pronnounced "vir-gil-eea" as she is named after Virgil from the Divine Comedy.

I believe Kanon is prounounced just like the english word "cannon".

Lambdadelta's name is based off letters of the greek alphabet, Lambda and Delta. "lamb-duh-del-tuh"

Spoiler for Ep 5:
__________________
SilverSyko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 20:37   Link #10910
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Virgilia is pronouced 'Waru-gii-lia'. Virgilia is just the romanized version of her name.

Lambdadelta is pronouced "Ram-uda-delta"

All the names are pronounced correctly in the anime, so I guess that makes it useful.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-09, 21:50   Link #10911
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Please note this is all my personal speculation but I'm pretty confident it's all right.

Virgilia is most likely pronnounced "vir-gil-eea" as she is named after Virgil from the Divine Comedy.

I believe Kanon is prounounced just like the english word "cannon".

Lambdadelta's name is based off letters of the greek alphabet, Lambda and Delta. "lamb-duh-del-tuh"
No, Kanon's name is 100% Japanese and should therefore be pronounced that way - "kah-non".

Virgilia and Lambdadelta are in more of a gray area (at least how I see it) because you have both the technical Japanese pronunciation and what was probably intended. (The anime leans towards the former). There's not much (any?) real difference for Lambdadelta, though.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 02:18   Link #10912
KoiYuki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Virgilia is pronouced 'Waru-gii-lia'. Virgilia is just the romanized version of her name.

Lambdadelta is pronouced "Ram-uda-delta"

All the names are pronounced correctly in the anime, so I guess that makes it useful.
Well, I know that's how they pronounced it due to the Japanese syllables, but.. I was wondering about what was intended. Saying Ramuda instead of Lambda is quite odd here.

I'm pretty sure Lambdadelta is intended to be like lamb, like the Greek numbers, though I know I'll say it like lahm.. xD;

Basically Virgilia's is confusing me the most now.. It looks like it should be like vir-jih-lya, but.. they say it warugiria, and yeah.. D;
__________________
KoiYuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 09:37   Link #10913
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
Take another look at how Maria talks when the murders start happening. She sounds gleeful. She might have trouble writing death scenarios, but the killings don't bother her.
Inability to face reality. Regardless of how mature Maria is in terms of knowledge, she is still a nine-year old. Most nine-year-olds can't really handle seeing people close to them have their heads torn open and stomaches strewn all over the place. Even when she's in the same room as the murders, she's asked to turn away, and doesn't even see the murders happen. In a rejection of reality, she probably thinks it's all an act, a staged murder mystery, which she would have a reason to believe if Shannontrice, who would probably be aware of Kinzo's will, told her about it.
In fact, she never sees an actual murder in progress, except during fantasy scenes, where her reactions may be edited to further horrify and distract Battler.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 10:18   Link #10914
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Inability to face reality. Regardless of how mature Maria is in terms of knowledge, she is still a nine-year old. Most nine-year-olds can't really handle seeing people close to them have their heads torn open and stomaches strewn all over the place. Even when she's in the same room as the murders, she's asked to turn away, and doesn't even see the murders happen. In a rejection of reality, she probably thinks it's all an act, a staged murder mystery, which she would have a reason to believe if Shannontrice, who would probably be aware of Kinzo's will, told her about it.
In fact, she never sees an actual murder in progress, except during fantasy scenes, where her reactions may be edited to further horrify and distract Battler.
I agree completely with you. Maria just thinks this is either all a game, or in the end everyone will be revived. Maria doesn't think that something terrible happened to them.

In ep6 after Kanon kills Rosa Maria goes nuts and tries to kill him as well. Sure this is a fantasy scene. But I think this shows us how Maria would feel if she didn't think this was a game/everyone will be revived.

And Maria is smart but in ep6 we learned that she gets easily fooled by Beatrice every year. It is just a simple trick, but it makes her believe in magic. Maria is smart yes, she is probably capable of skipping a few grades on some subjects, but I don't think she is capable of creating the tales in the note bottles. And writing it for someone else seems odd, since it would probably take a long time to write just one. I just don't think she would have the time to put in that much into it, with just the days she is on Rokkenjima.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 11:14   Link #10915
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Maria may be party to the "fake deaths" conspiracy, or at least prepped to accept it as part of a "game." Therefore, it may not even register with her that people are really dying, and once it becomes clear that they are, being nine years old will do the rest.

Intellect and maturity are very different things. The way someone reacts to a death says nothing of their intellect. Here's an example: Let's say Hideyoshi actually did see combat somewhere (this is just a hypothetical, he says he didn't), and let's say it was pretty bad. He's seen dudes blown up and shot and mangled and otherwise dying. So when he discovers a corpse during the murders, he doesn't react all that much. He doesn't seem sad, he doesn't bawl like Jessica or George might, he doesn't get angry like Battler. Part of that may just be his experience with death, and his own personality.

Genji, too. Genji is often very stoic. It doesn't mean he's involved. It could mean many things. Maybe he thinks it's just part of the act. When he realizes it isn't, perhaps Genji is sharp enough to keep his poker face, maintain his composure, and try to figure out who did it.

These are emotionally mature responses, but it doesn't mean that Maria not getting sad, scared, or angry makes her emotionally mature. Maria is also fairly accustomed to abandonment from her mother and has no father, so her entire socialization process is messed up. After all, Battler gets angry because he loves his family so much and hates injustice done to "innocents" like the servants. Maria's age and odd family situation just might not socialize her enough to understand sudden loss and feel empathy for people she's close to.

As for Rosa, to whom she is closely attached, I have to assume either all her resentment is bubbling forth, or she doesn't think Rosa is really dead. In ep1, this is very plausible. In ep2, Rosa isn't dead. In ep3, they die together. In ep4, she doesn't even see her mother for some time. In ep5-6, they're together. So really, Maria has no opportunity to react strongly to the death of Rosa other than in ep1, where she very well may not even think her mother is dead.

EDIT: And bear in mind this is without the whole Golden Land concept at all. If someone indoctrinated her to believe in that sincerely, then her reaction to loss will be completely hosed.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 19:32   Link #10916
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Okay the problem here lies with the fact that latin was a language that lived for a thousand years and like many languages it evolved and gained small changes over times, but those changes happened in some regions and not in others. Latin was used around the whole Europe.

Currently worldwide there are substantially two different schools about how latin should be pronounced (that i know of).

One is the classic pronounce, the original form

The other is the roman catholic official latin pronounce, still used today, which is based on the most recent latin pronounce in the territory of the current Italy.


So the name of the famous roman poet "VERGILIUS" by classic standard goes like:

"WEHR-GI-LIH-OOS"

and by more recent standards:

"VEHR-JI-LIH-OOS"

to further complicate things, the name "Vergilius" was later written as "Virgilius" during the middle ages, and the original was totally abandoned.


It looks like english based countries seem to adopt the oldest version of the name and its pronounce and Japan does that as well:

"UERUGIRIUSU"


Ryukishi decided to base the name of the character "Virgilia" on the official transliteration of the roman poet's name. However while the change of "USU" to "A" is absolutely correct as a feminization of the name, the change of "UE" to "WA" doesn't seem to have any logic reason.
Maybe Ryukishi really just wanted to make it sound like "Valkyrie" which is transliterated as: "WARUKYUURE"


Last stuff:
How did the actual person use to pronounce his own name?

Well... it's difficult to say, but according to my sources the more recent pronounce became the standard in what is currently the Italian peninsula around 300 B.C, and Vergilius was born in that region in 70 B.C.
So I guess that was: "VEHR-JI-LIH-OOS".


And how should it be pronounced as the character in Dante's Inferno?

This is a lot easier to tell and this should be probably the most relevant pronounce to refer to, since umineko's "Virgilia" is shaped around the "character Virgilius" and not the real person.

Dante is considered the father of the modern italian language, and his "La Divina Commedia" is one of the first literary works to have been written in italian (although in a now archaic form).

Dante used the form "VIRGILIO"

"VIHR-JI-LIH-OH"

which is still used as today in the modern italian language, even to indicate the real person.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-06-11 at 06:59.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 21:17   Link #10917
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I strongly second the idea that the most probable Scenario is that Maria knows that the deaths are fake. And maybe (probably) she's not the only one.

We know that Maria is honest and most kids of that age are not able to playact in a convincing way. So while the adults are able to show themselves terrorized and devastated in front of fake murders, Maria is not.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-10, 23:05   Link #10918
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I strongly second the idea that the most probable Scenario is that Maria knows that the deaths are fake. And maybe (probably) she's not the only one.

We know that Maria is honest and most kids of that age are not able to playact in a convincing way. So while the adults are able to show themselves terrorized and devastated in front of fake murders, Maria is not.
There is an odd aside in EP1, when the fourth and fifth twilights are discovered, where Maria is shown studying Kinzo's corpse and the stake in it very intently. I imagine what was going through her head at that moment was: "Wait a minute, this wasn't in the script. What's this doing here?"
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-11, 10:45   Link #10919
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There is an odd aside in EP1, when the fourth and fifth twilights are discovered, where Maria is shown studying Kinzo's corpse and the stake in it very intently. I imagine what was going through her head at that moment was: "Wait a minute, this wasn't in the script. What's this doing here?"
More so, since she's unable to proccess the idea of it being an actual murder (though in reality, it's simply just corpse mutilation) she would probably just accept it as a spur-of-the-moment change to the script.
We are pretty sure though, that all the parlour murders in Episode 1 were actual murders. So that's why she was asked by Shannontrice to turn around, so that when she sees them, she thinks they are faked murders.
Wouldn't this absolutely confirm that Beatrice is being controlled by the culprit? Using Maria's belief that all the murders are faked and her blind faith in Beatrice to have her sanity preserved.
I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing...
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-11, 14:22   Link #10920
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I strongly second the idea that the most probable Scenario is that Maria knows that the deaths are fake. And maybe (probably) she's not the only one.

We know that Maria is honest and most kids of that age are not able to playact in a convincing way. So while the adults are able to show themselves terrorized and devastated in front of fake murders, Maria is not.
Maria can lie. In fact Maria does lie; we have been shown this.

"Beatrice turned into gold butterflies and flew through the cracks in the door"

...I HIGHLY doubt that actually happened.

And on the note about Maria in ep 1. When the cousins first wake up in the morning. Maria is looking around for Rosa. And it seems pretty frantic. But then when she hears about the deaths. She doesn't seem to care at all. That is a huge change. First she is worried cause she can't find her mom, and then later she is doesn't care that she was told that her mom died.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.