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Old 2010-06-11, 03:23   Link #201
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
I want to watch the episode!

Waah!
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Old 2010-06-11, 03:32   Link #202
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
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Well from what I understand it's at least 12 episodes which, given Quarkboy's comment, leaves us at least 4 more episodes for a proper conclusion which is a lot of time to take it slow and steady.
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Old 2010-06-11, 12:01   Link #203
Kanon
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Isn't it only 11 episodes? Still leaves us with plenty of time.

Spoiler for episode 8:
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Old 2010-06-11, 12:49   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Spoiler for episode 8:
Spoiler for Episode 08:
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Old 2010-06-12, 00:57   Link #205
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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This episode was nothing short of awesome, explicating more on the occurrences of the previous episodes but having such wonderful coincidences and a masterful ending that ...

I just hope it keeps it this way for the last three episodes, as I begins again. [Link is my commentary on the eighth episode, alongside symbol analysis.]
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Old 2010-06-12, 10:08   Link #206
MeoTwister5
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First thing's first, if there's anything the show is stellar at it's the way it manages to put together those little events and questions you always had at the start through those minor revelations that in turn signify incredibly important things.

For me that would be the Mochiguman event. We see it again here, which suggests that perhaps Watashi playing the Mochiguman's part might be a consistent event in every reset, but the biggest revelation was the time frame and the little Mochiguman itself. I had assumed that they were both in college but evidently Akashi was still in high school when he saved her. Furthermore I had always wondered where he got the Mochiguman, and it seems he got it when Akashi "dropped" it outside the bus stand.

"Dropped" in quotation marks because I highly suspect that it was not some accident. Yes, I support the theory that Akashi intended to drop it there for him to find. As it stands it's the only explanation how he has the Mochiguman in every reset. I won't pretend to know what she was thinking but I truly believe she dropped it there for him to find, despite the fact that they never really knew each other then, and there was no reason to believe they would ever meet again. Taking further into consideration their VERY IMPORTANT talk in front of the apartment where she comes clean with having faked Keiko after Ozu got bored, this makes me conclude some things:

1. It may be possible that Akashi ending up in the same University as Watashi is more than a simple coincidence.

2. She dropped that Mochiguman because she WANTED to see him again.

3. She may have wanted to continue the Keiko facade not just because she couldn't find a way to break the lies from Watashi, but perhaps she felt it a way to communicate with him in a way that she wouldn't otherwise be able to since they aren't really "that close."

Believing that one and two are likely consistent with every reset, there can only be one conclusion that's pretty much foregone and I'm going to ship it anyway whether you approve of it or not:

Akashi likes Watashi.

There I said it. Quite frankly I always believed in this for weeks but for me this episode was probably the first definitive proof that the Red String of Fate has been trying to work its magic for a while.

This all leads to what it likely the climax of the series, and I agree with Quarkboy and Physics: This time he won't let despair take a hold of his like the previous resets, and he will keep on fighting to find that which he truly desires.

This person, of course, is she whom he saved from those mooks at the Mochiguman show.
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Old 2010-06-12, 10:38   Link #207
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
1. It may be possible that Akashi ending up in the same University as Watashi is more than a simple coincidence.
I agree. She may have wanted to follow him as a result.

Quote:
2. She dropped that Mochiguman because she WANTED to see him again.
This is too much. I think it's just a fixed point in the resets. It's a fixed occurrence, but to even surmise she dropped it because she wanted to see him reflects a characteristic of Watashi we've not seen at all. Her innocence brims through the episodes and sheer deliberation such as that is not like her at all.

EDIT: It may be 'the red string of fate' bringing this coincidence to life, but I just can't agree she really knowingly drops it for Watashi to find.

Quote:
3. She may have wanted to continue the Keiko facade not just because she couldn't find a way to break the lies from Watashi, but perhaps she felt it a way to communicate with him in a way that she wouldn't otherwise be able to since they aren't really "that close."
Possible.

Quote:
Akashi likes Watashi.
Hello, Captain Obvious! It's been quite palpable from the outset with how she treats him different from the other guys. She pushes away most of the other men wanting to know her, but talks freely with Watashi. This was even before the significance of the Mochiguman gained credence through the episodes.
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Old 2010-06-12, 10:50   Link #208
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
This is too much. I think it's just a fixed point in the resets. It's a fixed occurrence, but to even surmise she dropped it because she wanted to see him reflects a characteristic of Watashi we've not seen at all. Her innocence brims through the episodes and sheer deliberation such as that is not like her at all.
I was thinking that too but years of reading and watching TV is telling that I must invoke Occam's Razor for this cliche. It's a cliche and a rather effective one at that, despite being a show that tends to avoid most cliches of the genre (assuming you could assign a genre to the series as I've yet to myself). It's a simple explanation for something I highly doubt was a chance occurrence, and I think many of us can agree that her losing the Mochiguman is yet another coincidence in a list of coincidences.

That and given Akashi's usual matter-of-fact approach to everyone and Akashi to the point of bluntness, one would assume she wouldn't resort to such, but her talk with Watashi after revealing the truth of Keiko tells me she isn't always as up front as her usual behavior implies, especially with Watashi. Her first thanking of Watashi in that corridor after saving her was a simple thank and run that suggests her embarrassment. The way she couldn't drop the entire Keiko facade, even if she had her own intentions, and her rather roundabout and embarrassed way of explaining the truth to him also suggests there are things she can't explain well to him.

Quote:
Hello, Captain Obvious! It's been quite palpable from the outset with how she treats him different from the other guys. She pushes away most of the other men wanting to know her, but talks freely with Watashi. This was even before the significance of the Mochiguman gained credence through the episodes.
Some people refuse to accept the truth until it's shoved in their faces.
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Old 2010-06-12, 11:03   Link #209
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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I meant Akashi there. It just doesn't reflect a characteristic of Akashi, from what we've seen. She does not approach Ozu matter-of-factly. I think it can even be argued that they're friends. This is from what I see, but she just doesn't like the falsity of men. She has her own weaknesses - she is very much human, after all, and it can be seen with Watashi.

I think answering fate is also a pretty simple explanation. It's just fate that brings them together: in the different continuities, there was always something that brought Akashi and Watashi together. Watashi just denied this presence differently in the different times but it was always there: he denied Akashi out of consistency in the first episode; he ignored her because of spite in the second; he overlooked her in the third; he backed out in the fourth; he chased a faceless ideal in the fifth; he once again oversees her in the sixth to eighth episode for more ideal representations and existences. Yet she has consistently appeared in the different continuities and arcs because fate may be bringing them together. Whether in a book meet, in a movie shoot, in a Mochiguman hero show, as co-disciples, or simply as friends, they are brought together by fate.

Note that the Japanese have a very strong perception of fate and coincidence. I just think that deliberation is out of place with Akashi.
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Old 2010-06-12, 11:33   Link #210
Quarkboy
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If you look at the earlier episodes, most of them show exactly where and how Watashi picks up the Mochiguman, and it's different each time...

If I recall ep 1 was somewhere in the forest, episode 3 was in the laundry mat, etc...

I'm pretty sure that the losing of it is not purposeful, but rather _fateful_.
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Old 2010-06-12, 12:25   Link #211
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
If you look at the earlier episodes, most of them show exactly where and how Watashi picks up the Mochiguman, and it's different each time...

If I recall ep 1 was somewhere in the forest, episode 3 was in the laundry mat, etc...

I'm pretty sure that the losing of it is not purposeful, but rather _fateful_.
Exactly. It's fate that brings them together and not Akashi's own deliberation.
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Old 2010-06-12, 20:05   Link #212
MeoTwister5
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Despite my own support for the red string of fate, I doubt that the vast majority of these events can wholly be attributed to fate and coincidence. There has to be a factor of human free will and choice that is a major determining factor to the attraction, in a way similar to a lot of Watashi's own failings in each reset that is because of his own despaired choices rather than like dealing him the suck card.
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Old 2010-06-12, 21:54   Link #213
drobertbaker
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Our hero, like Bill Murray, will keep reliving Groundhog Day until he gets it right. He will finally achieve his rose-colored college life when he seizes the opportunity dangling in front of his eyes (if he can still afford it, because it costs him more every time he has to be told).
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Old 2010-06-12, 22:39   Link #214
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobertbaker View Post
Our hero, like Bill Murray, will keep reliving Groundhog Day until he gets it right. He will finally achieve his rose-colored college life when he seizes the opportunity dangling in front of his eyes (if he can still afford it, because it costs him more every time he has to be told).
He'll probably realize that there was no rose-colored college life to speak of in the first place, really, just an honest love between two people that makes life all right.

EDIT: I just realized something with the novel Ozu handed to Watashi. It has more meaning that just self-insertion! Here's my own explanation.

Last edited by physics223; 2010-06-14 at 11:32.
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Old 2010-06-15, 14:02   Link #215
Keiichi_chan
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this last arc centering around the love triangle (love square?)was really the high point of the series so far. i really hope things take off even further from here on!

i'm surprised that anyone was surprised to see akashi's involvement. she wasn't involved in the other two stories, and she's clearly the heroine of the series. i was waiting for her to show up and reveal herself as the final girl in the trio of potential suitors the entire episode.

i expected her to be more openly involved and there to be more progression with her relationship with the protagonist, but it looks like the next few episodes might focus more on that aspect. maybe some confrontation with ozu as well. i hope this is a catalyst for a spectacular finale. regardless, this was already one of the better shows this season.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:09   Link #216
Raiza Sunozaki
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Well, we've finally got some determination (apparently) from Watashi to find someone he can love, but can he break through his massive self-built wall of insecurity and cowardice to seize it?
By himself? I doubt it. For Watashi, I expect Akashi-san is going to have to give him a helping hand to pull him through such an obstacle.

On a side note, I'm exhillarated that Yojou-han's been liscensed (even if it's no surprise). This show's amazing, and I'm defintely going to pick it up when it hit shelves here in Canada.
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:19   Link #217
JiffyGB
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Wow...why is such a good show so obscure? I only recently found out about it and caught up on it just now. I quickly realized that watching all of that in just 2 days definitely wasn't good in terms of catching a lot of the little things. Just wanted to say that I would have missed out on a lot if it weren't for all of the insightful posts (or blogs). Thanks for that.

Too bad I'm now cursed with a wait time til the next one...
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Old 2010-06-17, 21:30   Link #218
WanderingKnight
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I know it's weird to resurface a topic (and a post!) we dealt with already, but I've been thinking about it a lot and I want to expand my thoughts on the matter.

Earlier I posted that I thought Kaori to be an allusion to or a metaphor of the Yamato Nadeshiko, the perfect Japanese woman. I stand by what I said, but I want to expand on it after giving it a bit more thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
I doubt that. I see Jougasaki as a parody if not a satire of the raging machismo who's really an insecure kid down inside. Given Watashi's saving graces I don't think he's that extreme yet. He reminds me of what Sato of NHK no Yokoso before his spiral into madness. Yes this episode practically satirizes the 2D>3D issue that has been stereotypical of otakus as of late, however Watashi to me represents more the descent into this state than actually being "there." Jougasaki on the other hand oozes a parody of the misguided machismo of a guy who not only spurns 3D for 2D, but practically abuses the attraction he generates for the opposite sex and (consciously?) throws it away for Kaori as if to spite all the real women who make up his harem. To me this itself is the end-all state of the 2D complex, someone who is conscious of his complex and probably desires the 3D world of women to burn in the process.

I wouldn't actually be surprised if this might be is unconscious revenge.
I think you hit the nail on the head in this one, but you didn't arrive to my exact conclusions.

The issue of 3D vs 2D in Japanese otaku, as many of you know, has to do with a deeper issue within the fabric of the Japanese society. Women are strengthening their positions and beginning to stand up for themselves more as Western values creep into the country. I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, but bear with me.

The fact that trends like moe arise aren't coincidental: Japanese men feel more and more insecure and, in their collective unconscious, wish for dumber and meeker women. That is what moe is: the crystallization of the meek and servile woman, an imagery that is almost a perfect plot of the Yamato Nadeshiko of yore in its essence: a woman that is more something to display, a piece of jewelry, rather than a human being capable of making her own decisions. The glorification of "2D girls" over "3D girls" is a way of institutionalizing, through culture, this idea -- a reaction against the changing times. Something which is, by the way, pushed more by older men than younger, but that has little to do with what I'm saying here.

What I want to say is that the implications of Kaori being the perfect Yamato Nadeshiko woman are deeper than they look -- as you say, it's a parody about 2D complex in general, an accusation against a society that objectifies women in the most extreme fashion. It's way better than I originally thought.

PS: Damn, after writing all that, it all seems so simple. I feel dumb for not noticing it earlier and having to write all that to get my thoughts in order. Sorry if it feels like I'm stating too many obvious things, but for some reason I was slow to grasp such a simple concept.
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Old 2010-06-18, 03:57   Link #219
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For curious people: The Lucky Cat Chinese Restaurant had 8 symbols representing 8 different branches of its operations.

I was curious and looked up in the novel to see if I could identify them all:
[Not spoilers because the extra branches don't appear ever]

Cheery Cycle Cleanup Corps (circle with X)
Proxy-Proxy War? (Kanji "dai")
Bedroom Research group young person's association (kanji for "bed")
Honwaka (Hiragana "ho")
Library Police (Kanji for "document/map")
Play on words theory group (Kanji for "trick")
Print Shop (Kanji for "seal/stamp")
Eizan Electric Railway Research Group (Kanji for "Ei" of name)

in the order they are around the table.
I'm not sure exactly what "dai" is, as it's not mentioned in the novel (nor is Honwaka, because Honaka as a cult is original to the anime), but I presume it stands for "dairi" i.e. "proxy". It would make some small sense if the proxy-proxy war itself has some over-arching authority.

One other thought: Does anyone else think it might be more than coincidence that the name "Neko Ramen" and "Lucky Cat Chinese Restaurant" both have to do with cats?
Remember is was the master of the Neko Ramen stand who saved Ozu and Watashi from Honwaka and Aijima mysteriously... I think that the master of Neko Ramen is actually the "big boss" of the Lucky Cat Chinese Restaurant. He knew all about the history of the proxy-proxy war, too...
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Old 2010-06-18, 04:34   Link #220
physics223
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Even without watching the episode, I already surmised as such. Cat? Neko Ramen? Mmm ...
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