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Old 2010-06-09, 17:41   Link #2041
Jarmel
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As stated otherwise, superhero ideals definitely depend on the person. Christ, Batman carried a gun for awhile. Superman killed Doomsday. Spiderman has tried to kill Norman Osborn.

Anti-hero is such a broad term that on Wikipedia, they had Batman listed under there. Again I’m not talking about the first choice to kill Sakura but definitely the second choice. It’s nobody’s fault that the Joker is like the way he is either and at the second choice, Shirou knows Sakura is responsible for multiple deaths and has a good chance of killing more.

Saving and letting go is somewhat different. Sakura after she leaves the house at that point is not a good guy as she is pretty much insane and essentially tried to kill Shirou(Berserker in forest) not to mention the amount of bad ends you can get. Saving someone from falling to their deaths and putting them in jail is somewhat different than risking not only your life but the world as well in saving that individual. I would say most superheroes if trying to decide between disarming a bomb or saving one life, the superhero would choose the bomb (before anybody brings up the Dark Knight, Batman thought Gordon could get to Dent in time) but afterwards try and save the life.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yes, true, but it has nothing to do with his ideal, because his ideal would have required him to kill her too.
Why would his ideal make him kill Saber? His ideal certainly never was the idea of justice itself or punishing the wicked.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Shirou knew none of this at the time of MoS, and by the time he did know, there was simply no way for him to defeat her even if he tried. Saving her was just as viable an option at that point as killing her was, and it also gained him the support of Rider..
Again I’m not talking about MoS but the second chance he has to kill Sakura.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Err, did you not watch the Normal end? That's exactly what happens. Shirou projects Excalibur and takes down the Grail...
Exactly. There was a good chance the Normal Route(Shirou dying) would have happened if Ilya didn’t show. In the true end, he starts to project Excalibur which would have killed him like in the Normal Route but Ilya stops him beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
As they were in Fate and in UBW, and as they would have been no matter what he did. It's not even certain that Rin could kill Sakura in the church, and even if she does she will go crazy and use the Grail unless she is stopped. MoS is not a good ending, even for the town, because we have no reason to assume that Shirou was going to win other than some vague assurance from Kotomine (who is the master of making entirely factually accurate but yet utterly misleading comments in order to troll people...), who can't even be sure anyway. Zouken is (probably) still alive and has TA, so can kill Shirou trivially, Archer will go all-out to kill him (because he's now become the person Archer most wanted to avoid, and there is no longer any reason for Archer to hold back with the shadow gone) and Ilya will want to smash him to pieces the first chance she gets. IMO, he doesn't stand a chance unless Kotomine gives him Gil, and that is bound to end badly (notably, it also allows Kotomine to say "well, technically, you did win, because you were the last master" as he sits there helplessly (having never learnt UBW) watching Gil unleash the Grail on the world).
In both cases though they still had Servants which is a major plus. I'm again not referring to MoS but the second choice.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
What about in the school in Fate? At that point, Rider is still around, and he has Shinji in a position where he could easily kill him. But, he gives him the chance to shut off the bloodfort (and then spares him when he does, even though Rider is still alive), rather than just killing him outright.

So? If Shinji hadn’t agreed then it would have been interesting to see what Shirou would have done but there was still no reason to just up and kill Shinji(which is somewhat extreme). Again your opinion of MoS Shirou is a little extreme. MoS Shirou felt cornered (in regards to Sakura) and did the best option he saw fit.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Not at the time of MoS. There was only the possibility that she would go insane, and her power didn't seem that excessive at that point. Later on, that was indeed the case, but by then saving her was probably the better option, if anything.
I’m not talking about MoS in regards to Sakura being insane but again the second choice to kill her.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
When they were fighting Ilya, it certainly seemed like a "kill her or die" scenario. And, yet, he never even considered the possibility of attacking her to defeat Berserker.
Admittedly that is true but he throughout all three routes views her as a kid and someone who shouldn't really be involved. However there wouldn't really be that much of a benefit as the Servant could still just up and kill you in a battle situation. Shirou's role against Kotomine and Kuzuki was mostly to delay and beat if possible. Shirou never really had to kill nor was he in a position to either.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Perhaps, although Shirou would likely have found a way. Also, Sakura tends to be pretty good at avoiding killing Shirou, in general.
Mostly through pure luck and even still Shirou can still get a lot of bad ends.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yes, he does that at the end. But, by that point, saving her is probably the better option, because they lack the power to outright defeat her (especially since he needs Rider's help). Besides, he accepts the possibility that Rin will kill Sakura if he's not quick enough, and he is equally determined to save the world as he is to save Sakura.
He pretty much joined Sakura’s side though the moment he couldn’t kill her in bed.

In most cases as the game points out, it’s not hard but just impossible. You can’t save the Joker, Osborn, Luthor, Red Skull, or the dozens of other villains. It’s simply impossible. Trying to save an individual is fine but having so much emotion that you can’t STOP trying to save that person is the problem. The first time when he chose not to let Rin kill Sakura was him doing the hardest route but the second choice was pretty much asinine. He got insanely lucky that Sakura’s insanity was only temporary and she reverted back to her normal (kinda anyway) after the Grail incident. He never had to confront the possibility of a permanently insane Sakura.

Archer realized his ideal when he had already became a Servant and thus entrapped permanently so again he realized it too late. Archer as you stated didn’t like having to kill people to save people, something that Shirou in HF somewhat just stumbles upon. That’s why you need UBW to have that personal development for Shirou. To have Shirou question his beliefs and ideals in the first place before leaping to Sakura’s rescue.

You really hate Kiritsugu don’t you?
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Old 2010-06-09, 18:14   Link #2042
Endscape
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Perhaps, but getting trodden on when asleep tends to wake you up....

Anyway, Zouken isn't stupid. He wouldn't leave himself defenseless in that way.
He destroyed all the worms. Since this is Gil, I highly doubt he dtepped on all of them. He probably swordspammed it. And any defenses Zouken left is nothing to Gil.

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Well, that's the thing about the HF ending. Sakura and Shirou are mutally dependant on each other for the time being, because both can only be happy when the other is. However, as they develop over time, they will [i]both/i] learn to think more about themselves. That, in my view, is why they work so well as a couple. Both of them can only be happy when the other is, which means that they will both sacrifice anything and everything for the other, and will both learn to live life for their own sakes, at least some of the time.

Post-HF, Shirou and Sakura will both learn to value themselves, because they want each other to be happy and the only way that can happen is if they are happy themselves.
I suppose that in the future they might learn to live for themselves, yes. If you want to champion that pairing, fine by me. For me, that's one of the problems I have with that pairing. Two people that utterly depend on each other to that unhealthy level shouldn't be in a relationship until they sort out their problems. That's why I like Shirou with Rin. They don't utterly depend on each other to live, but they are together solely because they like and trust each other.

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Well, of course. Just like Sakura breaks entirely without Shirou there (in the Normal end).
Yes. That's why I said it's unhealthy.


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By that definition, Batman, Superman etc. are not superheroes, because they never kill people in cold blood, no matter how dangerous they may be.
The point is that superheroes do what's best for everyone, not just who they like.

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I wasn't arguing about 'accumulated time', I was just expressing my annoyance at Saber fans who can't seem to grasp the concept that it is perfectly reasonable for Shirou to put Sakura before Saber in the Sakura route. Shirou discarding his ideal is a big thing. Shirou deciding to kill (Dark) Saber to improve his chances of saving Sakura is perfectly natural, and hits the player (who has played through the other two routes, and thus has more of an attachment to Saber than Shirou does) far harder than it hits Shirou.

Saber in HF means far less to Shirou than Saber in Fate (or even in UBW) does, and the idea that killing her is somehow a massive moment in his character development is laughable. The only reason he would not have killed her at that point was if he felt for her the way that he felt for Sakura, and since it is the Sakura route, there's no reason for him to do so.
I suppose, but the same can be said of Sakura fans who dislike UBW and Fate because they don't show Sakura being saved.

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I don't like his idealism. Eventually it will kill him and leave the people who loved him in grief. His thick skull never realizes this in any route except HF. Fate Shirou will eventually face the bitterness of the world and either becomes disillusioned or sacrafices himself at relatively young. UBW shirou is aware of it and has Rin to protect him but like Fate Shirou, UBW Shirou too will end up as a tool of others. HF Shirou on the other hand learns to live like a human and have his own control over his fate. Although he probably will choose a more peaceful life. Still, if HF Shirou really decides to do something for the world then he has a best chance to succeed. Why? Because he found himself. Fate and UBW Shirou are more like a sword which needs a hand to be directed. HF Shirou on the other hand is a warrior who swings his sword in the way he wants.
Personally I like his idealism. It's easy to give up because something's hard, but in UBW Shirou realizes that even if he never reaches his goal the journey itself is worth the effort. And UBW Shirou probably wwon't become a tool like Fate Shirou probably will and Archer did. Hell, if you look at the Zelretch's Box scenario in Atatraxia, which seems to be set in the UBW True End storyline, he isn't a tool, is he?
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Old 2010-06-09, 18:22   Link #2043
willyvereb
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You certainly misunderstand the situation. Sakura has never gone insane. She became warped due to AM's influence and the mental strain. Also she had Zouken controlling her until the last day when she "killed" him. She wasn't beyond saving as the story proves and Shirou felt that. Also you know...Shirou is shirou: Impossible just means he has to give his all to accomplish it or so he believes.
And indeed saving her is the more viable option as purely defeating her is pretty much impossible.For example even with the Zelretch Sword's infinite supply Rin actually was up to a defeat. She could just barely match Sakura and needed to blow up the Zelretch sword to gain a short advantage...which would've ultimately ended up in Saber Alter massacring her. Sakura could've called Dark Saber any minute and before Rin could've landed the finishing strike she appears and ends the battle. That's what happened in the last bad end. Interestingly at that certain end Shirou too thought that Sakura has gone too far. So I guess he still felt something in Sakura which proved she can be still saved. He saw a light from which Rin somehow deliberately averted her eyes. Also to add Rin realized in the end that she's the same as Shirou and can't kill Sakura. So I don't see what Shirou believed as unreasonable. The situation was clearly desperate but not totally.

And in the end I must add that by the time we got to that second confrontation Shirou has already decided to use everything he can for Sakura. He had no other way.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
He destroyed all the worms. Since this is Gil, I highly doubt he dtepped on all of them. He probably swordspammed it. And any defenses Zouken left is nothing to Gil.
Gil is no god. And I meant an early warning much similar to the one the Emiya household has. It warns everyone when somone unfriendly approaches the house. With that Zouken has plenty of time to escape or swithc to a different worm. We're speaking about the strongest chessmaster of the whole story here. Also UBW only mentioned squishing worms, nothing else. It could mean Gil tramples on the worms remained in the Matou house. It's a quite huge jump to claim Gilgamesh killed Zouken, and to add he killed Zouken for real. It's like when you decide what happens in the story for yourself after reading nothing just the book's cover. It may be accurate but most probably wrong.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Personally I like his idealism. It's easy to give up because something's hard, but in UBW Shirou realizes that even if he never reaches his goal the journey itself is worth the effort. And UBW Shirou probably wwon't become a tool like Fate Shirou probably will and Archer did. Hell, if you look at the Zelretch's Box scenario in Atatraxia, which seems to be set in the UBW True End storyline, he isn't a tool, is he?
It seems you didn't read much about HA. Hollow Ataraxia happens nowhere. It's a dream world and all of it happens in a parallel universe only loosely related to the other routes. Anyways if it has relation with anything then with HF with all those Dark Sakura and Dark Saber gags. And how it proves anything? I won't spoil you but HA tells nothing about Shirou actually.

I just realized you meant that future call. It's set only in the near future, it doesn't tell much either.Well, he will if Rin doesn't stop him. Although I slightly doubt it. Rin didn't real shown to be capable of stopping Shirou. He always got his way through and sacraficed himself recklessly. Rin just choose to get along. I doubt it would change really much with them later. Anyways that selfless attitude which will make Shirou the tool of others. He has no desire or more like he just didn't realized it clearly. At least in UBW Rin is sharp enough to realize when someone really pulls the strings for Shirou. But eventually Shirou's selfless and reckless attitude will lead to early death.

I have no problem with idealism, just never get overboard with it. Actually, I have a few idealistic views but seriously, being idealistic is like being deaf or more like hearing just one tune from the many. It simplifies things and keeps the matters pure but no matter how well-set the idealism is it never be true. It will always have set-backs. Believing in one idea alone, thinking that doing ultimate good is the best is just delusion. Sometimes vile things lead to grand revelations. Not always but sometimes. It's quite strange but true. The world has both good and evil or more like it depends on viewpoint. Well, I won't bore you with this anymore.I am just saying that Shirou-like idealism is unhealthy as the VN too points out.
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Old 2010-06-09, 18:42   Link #2044
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
He destroyed all the worms. Since this is Gil, I highly doubt he dtepped on all of them. He probably swordspammed it. And any defenses Zouken left is nothing to Gil.
Where do you get that from? All the game shows is Gil going into the room and trodding on a few worms.

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For me, that's one of the problems I have with that pairing. Two people that utterly depend on each other to that unhealthy level shouldn't be in a relationship until they sort out their problems.
I disagree entirely. Being in a relationship allows them to sort out their problems.

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That's why I like Shirou with Rin. They don't utterly depend on each other to live, but they are together solely because they like and trust each other.
The same applies to Sakura and Shirou. They are together because they like and trust each other. It's just that, for both of them, the happiness of the other is what matters to them. With Shirou and Rin, Shirou will want to make Rin happy, and won't care about himself, which isn't a healthy relationship. Rin will simply take advantage of him. Perhaps not intentionally, but it will end up happening. Plus, her constant Tsundereing will turn his life into a living nightmare....

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Yes. That's why I said it's unhealthy.
How does the fact that they can't live without each other make their relationship unhealthy? Besides, Sakura is not normal, and nor should she be expected to be after what Zouken put her through. She needs someone like Shirou to support her (Rin is totally useless in that respect, because she lacks the emotional intelligence to handle Sakura in that state).

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The point is that superheroes do what's best for everyone, not just who they like.
Yes, but they also don't kill innocent people in cold blood. Also, there are plenty of cases of superheroes putting their loved ones first. In fact, virtually every superhero is forced to do that at least once. It's just that there are rarely the explicit consequences that we see in HF.

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I suppose, but the same can be said of Sakura fans who dislike UBW and Fate because they don't show Sakura being saved.
Well, I dislike the fact that Fate and UBW tell us nothing about Sakura's situation, and force us to guess (unlike HF, which makes Saber's situation clear enough...). Anyway, I'm not complaining about Saber fans saying "I don't like the HF ending because Saber dies" (because I simply can't like the UBW endings after playing HF), I'm complaining about Saber fans who think that Saber absolutely must be the centre of attention and main love interest in all routes, and thus can't comprehend that, in HF, she's just there to drive the plot along.

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Hell, if you look at the Zelretch's Box scenario in Atatraxia, which seems to be set in the UBW True End storyline, he isn't a tool, is he?
Where do you get that idea from? HA is a mish-mash of all three routes, and Shirou's feelings for the girls (and thus, presumably, opinions about his ideals) come from all three. It's certainly not set post-UBW, at least not entirely.
Spoiler for HA:
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Old 2010-06-09, 18:44   Link #2045
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
You certainly misunderstand the situation. Sakura has never gone insane. She became warped due to AM's influence and the mental strain. Also she had Zouken controlling her until the last day when she "killed" him. She wasn't beyond saving as the story proves and Shirou felt that. Also you know...Shirou is shirou: Impossible just means he has to give his all to accomplish it or so he believes.
And indeed saving her is the more viable option as purely defeating her is pretty much impossible.For example even with the Zelretch Sword's infinite supply Rin actually was up to a defeat. She could just barely match Sakura and needed to blow up the Zelretch sword to gain a short advantage...which would've ultimately ended up in Saber Alter massacring her. Sakura could've called Dark Saber any minute and before Rin could've landed the finishing strike she appears and ends the battle. That's what happened in the last bad end. Interestingly at that certain end Shirou too thought that Sakura has gone too far. So I guess he still felt something in Sakura which proved she can be still saved. He saw a light from which Rin somehow deliberately averted her eyes. Also to add Rin realized in the end that she's the same as Shirou and can't kill Sakura. So I don't see what Shirou believed as unreasonable. The situation was clearly desperate but not totally.

And in the end I must add that by the time we got to that second confrontation Shirou has already decided to use everything he can for Sakura. He had no other way.
Sakura was beyond reasoning with or talking things out. It certainly wasn't her fault but I would still classify that as insanity. The story somewhat convienently wraps this up by just doing the time skip but Shirou is very lucky there wasn't alot more serious side effects.

At the battle in the cave, killing her at that point wouldn't have accomplished anything as Avenger was pretty much done anyway. Rin realized she couldn't kill her own sister so that is a different situation altogether. Sakura of course repaid that by almost killing Rin.

I do find it interesting that Shirou was being somewhat hypocritical as Kotomine points out that Shirou is passing judgment on future actions in regards to Avenger something he didn't do with Sakura.
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Old 2010-06-09, 19:26   Link #2046
Cherry_Lover
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Sakura was beyond reasoning with or talking things out. It certainly wasn't her fault but I would still classify that as insanity.
I have to say that I agree with you here, actually. Sakura in her Dark state is insane, hence why she can't reasonably be held accountable for her actions.

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The story somewhat convienently wraps this up by just doing the time skip but Shirou is very lucky there wasn't alot more serious side effects.
I'm not sure what you mean by that....

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At the battle in the cave, killing her at that point wouldn't have accomplished anything as Avenger was pretty much done anyway. Rin realized she couldn't kill her own sister so that is a different situation altogether.
Killing Sakura at that point was nigh-on impossible. The best way to stop her was to convince her to stop fighting, and once you've done that you may as well go the whole way and save her too.

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Sakura of course repaid that by almost killing Rin.
Sakura stabbed Rin in self-defense....

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I do find it interesting that Shirou was being somewhat hypocritical as Kotomine points out that Shirou is passing judgment on future actions in regards to Avenger something he didn't do with Sakura.
Well, Kotomine does have a point to a certain extent, yes (Shirou admits as much). However, there is no question that Angra Mainyu will kill people, and no way to 'save' him, neither of which applies to Sakura. Remember that, at the time of MoS, Shirou had no idea that Sakura was the shadow. If he'd known, I think he probably would have had no choice but to kill her, or at least to tell her the truth and force her to face it herself.
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Old 2010-06-09, 23:07   Link #2047
Endscape
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Gil is no god. And I meant an early warning much similar to the one the Emiya household has. It warns everyone when somone unfriendly approaches the house. With that Zouken has plenty of time to escape or swithc to a different worm. We're speaking about the strongest chessmaster of the whole story here. Also UBW only mentioned squishing worms, nothing else. It could mean Gil tramples on the worms remained in the Matou house. It's a quite huge jump to claim Gilgamesh killed Zouken, and to add he killed Zouken for real. It's like when you decide what happens in the story for yourself after reading nothing just the book's cover. It may be accurate but most probably wrong.
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Where do you get that from? All the game shows is Gil going into the room and trodding on a few worms.
True, we never see him killing Zouken, however Shinji brought him down there, and I doubt it was for sightseeing, hell why else would he bring him down there except to kill him?

As for Zouken detecting him, I'm not quite sure if Gil can go spirit form or not ( the scene in Fate where he fights Saber indicates he can, as well as the fact that he disappears when killed like other Servants, but if he went in there in spirit form, would Zouken notice?

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I disagree entirely. Being in a relationship allows them to sort out their problems.
And I disagree with that. They should sort out their problems before going into a relationship. In a relationship like that, both sides end up hurting each other.

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The same applies to Sakura and Shirou. They are together because they like and trust each other. It's just that, for both of them, the happiness of the other is what matters to them. With Shirou and Rin, Shirou will want to make Rin happy, and won't care about himself, which isn't a healthy relationship. Rin will simply take advantage of him. Perhaps not intentionally, but it will end up happening. Plus, her constant Tsundereing will turn his life into a living nightmare....
I agree on the love and trust, but as I said they're too dependent on each other. Relationships like that never end well.

I disagree totally with your views on Shirou and Rin. They complement each other, since both can help the other in their path through life, but stopping the other when they go to far, like Shirou and his idealism and Rin in her responsibilities as a magus. However, unlike Shirou and Sakura, they aren't utterly dependent on each other and can walk on their own. And Shirou likes Rin's tsundereing, because it makes his life exciting. Sakura certainly can't say the same...

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How does the fact that they can't live without each other make their relationship unhealthy? Besides, Sakura is not normal, and nor should she be expected to be after what Zouken put her through. She needs someone like Shirou to support her (Rin is totally useless in that respect, because she lacks the emotional intelligence to handle Sakura in that state)
What?

Please read what you just wrote. Two people who cannot live without the other is healthy to you? That's normally called mental instability. They take people to mental hospitals for that. Yes, Sakura isn't normal, and someone like Shirou is needed to help her, but not necessarily in a romantic sense. They'd be better off waiting for them to go through their problems first.

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Yes, but they also don't kill innocent people in cold blood. Also, there are plenty of cases of superheroes putting their loved ones first. In fact, virtually every superhero is forced to do that at least once. It's just that there are rarely the explicit consequences that we see in HF.
And they also don't let hundreds of innocent people die for one person's sake.


And please point out a case where a superhero had the clear choice between the life of a loved one and the lives of hundreds of people, please?

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Well, I dislike the fact that Fate and UBW tell us nothing about Sakura's situation, and force us to guess (unlike HF, which makes Saber's situation clear enough...). Anyway, I'm not complaining about Saber fans saying "I don't like the HF ending because Saber dies" (because I simply can't like the UBW endings after playing HF), I'm complaining about Saber fans who think that Saber absolutely must be the centre of attention and main love interest in all routes, and thus can't comprehend that, in HF, she's just there to drive the plot along.
I guess I can see your point there? Most of those Saber fans are angry that Nasu killed her off because Shirou more than likely wouldn't have fallen for Sakura or have any problems with Archer's arm if she were there.

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Where do you get that idea from? HA is a mish-mash of all three routes, and Shirou's feelings for the girls (and thus, presumably, opinions about his ideals) come from all three. It's certainly not set post-UBW, at least not entirely.
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It seems you didn't read much about HA. Hollow Ataraxia happens nowhere. It's a dream world and all of it happens in a parallel universe only loosely related to the other routes. Anyways if it has relation with anything then with HF with all those Dark Sakura and Dark Saber gags. And how it proves anything? I won't spoil you but HA tells nothing about Shirou actually.
I'm fairly well acquainted with HA, thank you very much. it's you two who don't seem to know much.

Spoiler for Hollow Ataraxia:
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Old 2010-06-10, 09:03   Link #2048
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
True, we never see him killing Zouken, however Shinji brought him down there, and I doubt it was for sightseeing, hell why else would he bring him down there except to kill him?
No idea. But, there is no evidence that Zouken got killed there whatsoever.

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As for Zouken detecting him, I'm not quite sure if Gil can go spirit form or not ( the scene in Fate where he fights Saber indicates he can, as well as the fact that he disappears when killed like other Servants, but if he went in there in spirit form, would Zouken notice?
Going into spirit form doesn't stop boundary fields from detecting you. They're magical fields, after all. They detect magical entities passing through them just as much as normal humans. In any case, Zouken isn't stupid. Plus, he has his main worm inside Sakura, which means that to kill him, you have to get it out of her somehow....

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And I disagree with that. They should sort out their problems before going into a relationship. In a relationship like that, both sides end up hurting each other.
How? In any case, the only thing that can solve their problems is each other. They need someone else who cares deeply for them, to encourage them to care for each other.

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I agree on the love and trust, but as I said they're too dependent on each other. Relationships like that never end well.
I don't see any problem there.

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I disagree totally with your views on Shirou and Rin.
And I disagree with your views on Shirou and Sakura....

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Please read what you just wrote. Two people who cannot live without the other is healthy to you? That's normally called mental instability. They take people to mental hospitals for that. Yes, Sakura isn't normal, and someone like Shirou is needed to help her, but not necessarily in a romantic sense. They'd be better off waiting for them to go through their problems first.
Two people who care so deeply for each other that their lives are not meaningful without one another are simply deeply in love. That is what love is. And, it will only last for a short time. As they both develop as people (which they will), they will become more capable of surviving without each other.

But, to say that they should avoid a relationship because they care too much for each other is ridiculous.

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And they also don't let hundreds of innocent people die for one person's sake.
Shirou never did that. He didn't know Sakura was going to kill anyone, and he certainly didn't know that she would kill that many. He assumed that he would be able to stop her if she went insane.

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And please point out a case where a superhero had the clear choice between the life of a loved one and the lives of hundreds of people, please?
Well, they don't....

That's the point, I suppose. FSN provides a rather thorough deconstruction of those sort of heroes. In reality, they would be forced to make such decisions, and the result would either be something like HF Shirou, someone who protects the people they know first, or someone like MoS Shirou, who would inevitably break in the end, like Kiritsugu did.

Incidentally, superheroes do pick certain groups of people to protect. Superman, for example, protects Metropolis and his friends more closely than the rest of the world. If there's a major disaster, he'll go anywhere to deal with it, but more minor things he can only deal with in his local vicinity.

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I guess I can see your point there? Most of those Saber fans are angry that Nasu killed her off because Shirou more than likely wouldn't have fallen for Sakura or have any problems with Archer's arm if she were there.
I'm pretty sure Shirou would have fallen for Sakura regardless of whether or not Saber died (Saber's death doesn't alter his feelings for Sakura in any way, and once he realises that he was simply pretending to himself that she was nothing more than a little sister to him a relationship was inevitable). However, the rest of the plot wouldn't have worked very well with Saber around. For a start, she wouldn't have been remotely pleased with the idea of protecting Sakura, I'd imagine, and she certainly wouldn't have liked the idea of having Rider around. Plus, it would have made winning a hell of a lot easier.

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Spoiler for Hollow Ataraxia:
Oh, OK, you meant that the alternate world was post-UBW....

Well, I don't know enough about HA to argue with that....
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Old 2010-06-10, 09:31   Link #2049
Jarmel
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I have to say that I agree with you here, actually. Sakura in her Dark state is insane, hence why she can't reasonably be held accountable for her actions.
I never said she should be accountable for her actions

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by that....
I just meant that Shirou is lucky there wasn't more permament mental damage from the incident.
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post

Killing Sakura at that point was nigh-on impossible. The best way to stop her was to convince her to stop fighting, and once you've done that you may as well go the whole way and save her too.
I agree at that point it didn't really matter either way. My whole problem is when he made the choice the second time not to kill her. Any time afterwards is pretty much impossible and wouldn't have served any purpose anyway except if he had run into Sakura in the forest but that didn't happen anyway,

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Sakura stabbed Rin in self-defense....
That was me being a wise-ass.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, Kotomine does have a point to a certain extent, yes (Shirou admits as much). However, there is no question that Angra Mainyu will kill people, and no way to 'save' him, neither of which applies to Sakura. Remember that, at the time of MoS, Shirou had no idea that Sakura was the shadow. If he'd known, I think he probably would have had no choice but to kill her, or at least to tell her the truth and force her to face it herself.
That was the point Kotomine was making is that Shirou couldn't know for sure and was only going on his gut feelings and was judging Avenger(or AM if you will) on future actions. Again I'm talking about the second choice when you're about to stab Sakura in bed and Shirou backs off. At that point he did know Sakura was the shadow and there was a very good chance she could hurt many more people.

Also would like to respond a bit to your claim that most superheroes would end up like Kiritsugu. That I would actually doubt and feel that it would be more similar to UBW in that they would question if they want to be a superhero(although different for obvious reasons mostly due to Shirou's ideal is not being a superhero) and afterwards understand the negatives and still choose to move forward. Many superheros stop being their alternate identity due to stress on their personal lives for a time being (obvious case being Peter Parker) but almost always decide to continue fully knowing the detriment it will have on their lives.
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Old 2010-06-10, 11:21   Link #2050
Cherry_Lover
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I never said she should be accountable for her actions
I never claimed you did. It was just an incidental point.

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I just meant that Shirou is lucky there wasn't more permament mental damage from the incident.
I'm still not entirely sure what you're talking about. Do you mean mental damage to him as a result of using Archer's arm?

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I agree at that point it didn't really matter either way. My whole problem is when he made the choice the second time not to kill her.
Well, perhaps, although that wasn't so much a decision not to kill her as alack of willingness to stab the person you live in the heart, which is kind of understandable, really.... Not to mention that, if you go through with it, you just get yourself killed, which likely would result in Sakura going Dark without any way of stopping her.

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That was the point Kotomine was making is that Shirou couldn't know for sure and was only going on his gut feelings and was judging Avenger(or AM if you will) on future actions.
Well, yes, that is indeed the point. I guess the problem is that, whilst what he's saying sounds utterly absurd (because what Sakura is birthing is the incarnation of all evil), he is right that judging AM before he has a chance to live is unfair.

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Again I'm talking about the second choice when you're about to stab Sakura in bed and Shirou backs off. At that point he did know Sakura was the shadow and there was a very good chance she could hurt many more people.
Well, yes, that is the point where he truly realises that he simply wants to save Sakura, no matter what. He wants to save the world too, of course, but by then he has realised that his love for Sakura comes first.

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Also would like to respond a bit to your claim that most superheroes would end up like Kiritsugu. That I would actually doubt and feel that it would be more similar to UBW in that they would question if they want to be a superhero(although different for obvious reasons mostly due to Shirou's ideal is not being a superhero) and afterwards understand the negatives and still choose to move forward. Many superheros stop being their alternate identity due to stress on their personal lives for a time being (obvious case being Peter Parker) but almost always decide to continue fully knowing the detriment it will have on their lives.
They would end up like Kiritsugu if they were forced to make decisions like MoS Shirou does, because the human mind simply isn't capable of caring equally about every person in the world unless you think of people as abstract entities, which precludes any true emotional attachments.

There's a difference between being unable to save a loved one and actively making a decision to kill that loved one when they perhaps could have been saved. HF Shirou didn't think Sakura was unsalvageable, so killing her would break him. I can't think of any superhero who has been forced into a situation where they are forced to kill someone they love in cold blood when they were clearly not an immediate danger to anyone.
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Old 2010-06-10, 13:18   Link #2051
Jarmel
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I'm still not entirely sure what you're talking about. Do you mean mental damage to him as a result of using Archer's arm?
That too but I was referring to Sakura in that she was able to become sane afterwards(despite some minor side effects) and that there were no real serious problems regarding her mental state that would involve psychiatric treatment.

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Well, perhaps, although that wasn't so much a decision not to kill her as alack of willingness to stab the person you live in the heart, which is kind of understandable, really.... Not to mention that, if you go through with it, you just get yourself killed, which likely would result in Sakura going Dark without any way of stopping her.
To be fair though we have no indication that Rider is going to kill you which is part of the reason why I feel that Nasu is forcing the route down your throat.

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They would end up like Kiritsugu if they were forced to make decisions like MoS Shirou does, because the human mind simply isn't capable of caring equally about every person in the world unless you think of people as abstract entities, which precludes any true emotional attachments.

There's a difference between being unable to save a loved one and actively making a decision to kill that loved one when they perhaps could have been saved. HF Shirou didn't think Sakura was unsalvageable, so killing her would break him. I can't think of any superhero who has been forced into a situation where they are forced to kill someone they love in cold blood when they were clearly not an immediate danger to anyone.
This is never brought up in any superhero situations because the romance interest is almost always a normal human being with no supernatural powers. There are cases of love interests being killed but that was more of an immediate danger. Nasu somewhat avoids this as well though because if Sakura had physically attacked the house and if Shirou had a chance to kill her, he should. However the next time we really meet Sakura after her running away is in the cave where at that point it doesn't matter either way.
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Old 2010-06-10, 15:06   Link #2052
Cherry_Lover
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Why would his ideal make him kill Saber? His ideal certainly never was the idea of justice itself or punishing the wicked.
Because she was corrupted....

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Exactly. There was a good chance the Normal Route(Shirou dying) would have happened if Ilya didnít show. In the true end, he starts to project Excalibur which would have killed him like in the Normal Route but Ilya stops him beforehand.
Yes, but that was his intention.

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So? If Shinji hadnít agreed then it would have been interesting to see what Shirou would have done but there was still no reason to just up and kill Shinji(which is somewhat extreme). Again your opinion of MoS Shirou is a little extreme. MoS Shirou felt cornered (in regards to Sakura) and did the best option he saw fit.
Shinji in Fate was just as much of a danger as Sakura in HF was (at the time of MoS). Neither of them had killed anyone, both had the potential to do so. The only difference is that Shinji was doing it intentionally, and Sakura wasn't.

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Admittedly that is true but he throughout all three routes views her as a kid and someone who shouldn't really be involved.
As opposed to Sakura? If killing Sakura is OK, then so is killing Ilya.

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However there wouldn't really be that much of a benefit as the Servant could still just up and kill you in a battle situation.
Not really, because Berserker lacks any ability to fight for himself, and lacks Independant Action.

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Mostly through pure luck and even still Shirou can still get a lot of bad ends.
Sakura tries hard not to kill him, for obvious reasons. In fact, even her subconscious tries to avoid doing so.

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He pretty much joined Sakuraís side though the moment he couldnít kill her in bed.
And attempting to kill her in bed was a bad idea, because it gets him killed....

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Trying to save an individual is fine but having so much emotion that you canít STOP trying to save that person is the problem. The first time when he chose not to let Rin kill Sakura was him doing the hardest route but the second choice was pretty much asinine. He got insanely lucky that Sakuraís insanity was only temporary and she reverted back to her normal (kinda anyway) after the Grail incident. He never had to confront the possibility of a permanently insane Sakura.
Shirou simply refused to give up on her, because that's how he is. Once he's decided to do something, he will do it no matter what.

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You really hate Kiritsugu donít you?
Not particularly. But Kiritsugu certainly does....

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That too but I was referring to Sakura in that she was able to become sane afterwards(despite some minor side effects) and that there were no real serious problems regarding her mental state that would involve psychiatric treatment.
Well, perhaps, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't try to save her. What else can he do? Just because she's had a horrible life, that doesn't mean she should be written off as a lost cause and killed.

It helps that Sakura is exceptionally strong (mentally), and he knows that she is. Having said that, Shirou most definitely did make a severe error in the ending, that being failing to realise how much his death would hurt her. His lack of self-worth meant that he couldn't percieve how important he was to others, and so he thought that, provided he solved all of Sakura's problems, she would live a happy life without him, whereas in fact she simply couldn't accept that he was gone and spent the rest of her life mourning him.

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To be fair though we have no indication that Rider is going to kill you which is part of the reason why I feel that Nasu is forcing the route down your throat.
It's the obvious outcome, though, given the situation. Rider isn't going to sit there and let Sakura die, and she's obviously going to be around. I certainly worked out that killing Sakura at that point was a bad idea (admittedly, that was mainly because Zouken pretty much told us it was in an interlude...).

In fact, if killing Sakura was the right thing to do, Zouken wouldn't have told Shirou the truth in the first place. He's not an idiot. He knew that Shirou betraying Sakura would be the final push needed to break her control over the shadow, and thus allow him to use her properly. He quite obviously had no wish to destroy the shadow, because he couldn't care less what happens to everyone else, and if he does lose control (as he claimed he had) the worst that can happen to him is death, and in the situation that they're in at that point his death is inevitable anyway unless he wins the war (because Rin certainly isn't going to leave him be, and nor would Shirou, plus he has no way of gaining the Grail).

The whole thing is set up by Zouken from the start, so it's only natural for Shirou's attempt to fail, because that's what Zouken wanted to happen. It's not Nasu forcing the whole thing down your throat, it's Zouken continuing his Xanatos gambit, which requires Sakura to be alive and to break.

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This is never brought up in any superhero situations because the romance interest is almost always a normal human being with no supernatural powers. There are cases of love interests being killed but that was more of an immediate danger.
Yes, true, but that's part of the point. They're avoiding it because it would cause them problems.

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Nasu somewhat avoids this as well though because if Sakura had physically attacked the house and if Shirou had a chance to kill her, he should. However the next time we really meet Sakura after her running away is in the cave where at that point it doesn't matter either way.
Well, Shirou had no way of killing Sakura, so that doesn't apply. Plus, if he can kill her, he can also use Rule Breaker on her, and thus save her, just as easily. The reason Sakura can't show up is because, if she decides to kill Rin and Shirou, then Rin and Shirou are dead. But, Sakura has no wish to do that.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-06-10 at 15:17.
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Old 2010-06-10, 15:36   Link #2053
Endscape
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No idea. But, there is no evidence that Zouken got killed there whatsoever.
True. But most likely Gil and Shinji tried to attack him, so his fate is unknown, I think.

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Going into spirit form doesn't stop boundary fields from detecting you. They're magical fields, after all. They detect magical entities passing through them just as much as normal humans. In any case, Zouken isn't stupid. Plus, he has his main worm inside Sakura, which means that to kill him, you have to get it out of her somehow....
Hmm, the thing about boundary fields and spirits, if it's a special anti-spirit field than yeah, otherwise I'm not sure.

About the heart worm, I'm also not 100% positive on that. His soul is always in there, and he remote controls his normal worm body from there, right?

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How? In any case, the only thing that can solve their problems is each other. They need someone else who cares deeply for them, to encourage them to care for each other.
Because that's what mentally unstable people do, they wreck their relationships.

Also, I don't think that their problems are so special that only they can solve them, you know?

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I don't see any problem there.
People aren't perfect, and being in a relationship is a difficult thing. That is why people with mental problems wreck relationships: they aren't up to keeping them together, their own problems get in the way.

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And I disagree with your views on Shirou and Sakura....
So we both disagree then.

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Two people who care so deeply for each other that their lives are not meaningful without one another are simply deeply in love. That is what love is. And, it will only last for a short time. As they both develop as people (which they will), they will become more capable of surviving without each other.

But, to say that they should avoid a relationship because they care too much for each other is ridiculous.
True, your definition of love is good. However, they don't start out like that, they grow into a relationship like that. being like that in the beginning of the relationship is unhealthy.

They should avoid getting into a relationship the first chance they get, yes. They should wait until they work out their problems, then go into a relationship. it's better in the long run.

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Shirou never did that. He didn't know Sakura was going to kill anyone, and he certainly didn't know that she would kill that many. He assumed that he would be able to stop her if she went insane.
Forgive me if I'm wrong ,but when he found out from Zouken that Sakura was the Shadow, and decided then to support her, he might not have known how many she would kill, but he knew that she would likely kill. Hell, she was killing randomly, so he accepted that she could have killed Ayako or Taiga,t the moment he decided to support her.

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Well, they don't....

That's the point, I suppose. FSN provides a rather thorough deconstruction of those sort of heroes. In reality, they would be forced to make such decisions, and the result would either be something like HF Shirou, someone who protects the people they know first, or someone like MoS Shirou, who would inevitably break in the end, like Kiritsugu did.

Incidentally, superheroes do pick certain groups of people to protect. Superman, for example, protects Metropolis and his friends more closely than the rest of the world. If there's a major disaster, he'll go anywhere to deal with it, but more minor things he can only deal with in his local vicinity.
If they got into such a decision, who knows what they would choose, probably MoS Shirou option. Breaking afterward is something that depends on their personality, Shirou and Kiritsugu had problems before hand, as well, that contributed to them breaking.

And Superman paying attention to Metropolis is because he lives there. I doubt if he ws forced to choose between Earth and Metropolis he'd choose Metropolis.

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I'm pretty sure Shirou would have fallen for Sakura regardless of whether or not Saber died (Saber's death doesn't alter his feelings for Sakura in any way, and once he realises that he was simply pretending to himself that she was nothing more than a little sister to him a relationship was inevitable). However, the rest of the plot wouldn't have worked very well with Saber around. For a start, she wouldn't have been remotely pleased with the idea of protecting Sakura, I'd imagine, and she certainly wouldn't have liked the idea of having Rider around. Plus, it would have made winning a hell of a lot easier.
Hmm, I always thought that if Saber was around he'd be too preoccupied with her to worry about Sakura, but as HF basically does force your choices to revolve around Sakura, you're probably right.
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Old 2010-06-10, 15:56   Link #2054
Cherry_Lover
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True. But most likely Gil and Shinji tried to attack him, so his fate is unknown, I think.
I think it's unlikely that he's dead. He's simply too well-organised to be killed off that easily.

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Hmm, the thing about boundary fields and spirits, if it's a special anti-spirit field than yeah, otherwise I'm not sure.
Shirou's boundary fields seems to detect Heroic Spirits, I can't see why the Matou family wouldn't have one that did....

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About the heart worm, I'm also not 100% positive on that. His soul is always in there, and he remote controls his normal worm body from there, right?
Yeah, I think so. In which case, killing his main body thoroughly enough just means he will take Sakura's body....

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Because that's what mentally unstable people do, they wreck their relationships.
Well, they don't seem overly mentally unstable, and their relationship is still working just fine two years later. They're close enough that they can quite easily overcome any problems they might have, and they will get stronger.

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Also, I don't think that their problems are so special that only they can solve them, you know?
Sakura needs Shirou because he's the only person who has given her life meaning, and Shirou needs Sakura because she's the only one who can, eventually, make him think of himself to some extent.

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People aren't perfect, and being in a relationship is a difficult thing. That is why people with mental problems wreck relationships: they aren't up to keeping them together, their own problems get in the way.
There are no signs of such a thing happening to Shirou and Sakura, however.

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So we both disagree then.
Yep....

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True, your definition of love is good. However, they don't start out like that, they grow into a relationship like that. being like that in the beginning of the relationship is unhealthy.
Shirou and Sakura have been in love for a long time, they just didn't realise it (in Shirou's case, anyway). And, how is it unhealthy to start a relationship deeply in love? That makes no sense.

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They should avoid getting into a relationship the first chance they get, yes. They should wait until they work out their problems, then go into a relationship. it's better in the long run.
It doesn't work that way. If you're in love, then you're in love. Plus, they need each other to get over their problems. I see no issue whatsoever with Shirou and Sakura's relationship, and the game backs me up on that.

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Forgive me if I'm wrong ,but when he found out from Zouken that Sakura was the Shadow, and decided then to support her, he might not have known how many she would kill, but he knew that she would likely kill. Hell, she was killing randomly, so he accepted that she could have killed Ayako or Taiga,t the moment he decided to support her.
Well, the second time around is a bit different, yes. Then he did indeed know that Sakura had killed people. But, by that point, he was deeply enough in love with her that he just wanted to protect her, no matter what. That's an entirely natural thing to do.

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If they got into such a decision, who knows what they would choose, probably MoS Shirou option. Breaking afterward is something that depends on their personality, Shirou and Kiritsugu had problems before hand, as well, that contributed to them breaking.
I'm not at all convinced of that. Most superheroes certainly seem to put their loved ones first to a certain extent, and they certainly don't like the idea of pre-emptively killing innocents because they might do something bad later.

As for breaking, it's certain. As a human, we are simply not able to care for everyone equally unless we care for no-one at all, because our minds cannot cope with thinking of 6 billion people as 'people'. So, someone who takes the MoS route has to stop caring about people (because if they care about someone, then they will probably eventually be forced to betray that person to uphold their ideal), and thus cannot live anything resembling a human life. But, since the only people who would want to do such a thing are likely to be people who care deeply about others, preventing themselves from doing so is pretty much impossible.

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And Superman paying attention to Metropolis is because he lives there. I doubt if he ws forced to choose between Earth and Metropolis he'd choose Metropolis.
Yes, but it's still true that he protects Metropolis more than other places.

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Hmm, I always thought that if Saber was around he'd be too preoccupied with her to worry about Sakura, but as HF basically does force your choices to revolve around Sakura, you're probably right.
Why? He certainly looks after Sakura before Saber is gone. If someone he cares for is ill, he's not going to abandon her constantly to run off and fight with Saber. Plus, her situation is part of the war anyway, so she's bound to get involved.

The way you say this implies that Saber is the 'natural' choice for Shirou, and that only if she vanishes would he ever pick anyone else. To me, it's the other way around. Sakura is the natural choice. He loves her already, and all that needs to happen is for him to realise this. So, it's only natural that he would attempt to protect her if she's feeling ill. and to protect her from Shinji. I don't see how any of the events of the war prior to the school/church scenes would have gone any differently if Saber had been around, and once you've been through those, you're guarenteed to end up on the Sakura route.
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Old 2010-06-10, 18:08   Link #2055
Endscape
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I think it's unlikely that he's dead. He's simply too well-organised to be killed off that easily.
Maybe. The best laid plans of mice and men, you know... or in the case the best laid plans of worm-men?

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Shirou's boundary fields seems to detect Heroic Spirits, I can't see why the Matou family wouldn't have one that did....
Shirou's boundary field detects killing intent. i don't recall but can it detect Sernat's killing intent is spirit form?

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Yeah, I think so. In which case, killing his main body thoroughly enough just means he will take Sakura's body....
Didn't he say he wasn't sure that he could do that?

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Well, they don't seem overly mentally unstable, and their relationship is still working just fine two years later. They're close enough that they can quite easily overcome any problems they might have, and they will get stronger.
Shirou and Sakura? don't seem mentally unstable? OK, then...

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Sakura needs Shirou because he's the only person who has given her life meaning, and Shirou needs Sakura because she's the only one who can, eventually, make him think of himself to some extent.
I didn't know Emiya Shirou was so amazing, that he's the only person in the world that can help Sakura.

And Rin can do just as good a job of getting him to think of himself as Sakura can, and he doesn't even have to throw away his ideals to do so.

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There are no signs of such a thing happening to Shirou and Sakura, however.
Yet. That's what always ends up happening in the end.

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Shirou and Sakura have been in love for a long time, they just didn't realise it (in Shirou's case, anyway). And, how is it unhealthy to start a relationship deeply in love? That makes no sense.
It isn't unhealthy for them to start a relationship deeply in love. It's unhealthy for them to start a romantic relationship when each of them can't exist without the other due to their metal problems.

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It doesn't work that way. If you're in love, then you're in love. Plus, they need each other to get over their problems. I see no issue whatsoever with Shirou and Sakura's relationship, and the game backs me up on that.
So in your mind just because they're in love, two people with mental issues should get together and end up messing each other up. I suppose that after someone gets raped, you're remedy would be sending her home to have sex with her boyfriend, trauma be damned.

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Well, the second time around is a bit different, yes. Then he did indeed know that Sakura had killed people. But, by that point, he was deeply enough in love with her that he just wanted to protect her, no matter what. That's an entirely natural thing to do.
Yeah, that's what I meant. He was so in love with her he chose her over everyone else.

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I'm not at all convinced of that. Most superheroes certainly seem to put their loved ones first to a certain extent, and they certainly don't like the idea of pre-emptively killing innocents because they might do something bad later.

As for breaking, it's certain. As a human, we are simply not able to care for everyone equally unless we care for no-one at all, because our minds cannot cope with thinking of 6 billion people as 'people'. So, someone who takes the MoS route has to stop caring about people (because if they care about someone, then they will probably eventually be forced to betray that person to uphold their ideal), and thus cannot live anything resembling a human life. But, since the only people who would want to do such a thing are likely to be people who care deeply about others, preventing themselves from doing so is pretty much impossible.
But by the time Zouken talked to him, she had already killed and was going to keep killing, so that doesn't count. The situation is more like a snap choice: my loved one or everyone else.

When I meant breaking, I didn't mean going through the entire MoS lifestyle, just that decision, my loved one or everybody else. Most people who chose to kill their loved one would just hate themselves and eventually keep moving onwards.

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Yes, but it's still true that he protects Metropolis more than other places.
As I said he lives there.

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Why? He certainly looks after Sakura before Saber is gone. If someone he cares for is ill, he's not going to abandon her constantly to run off and fight with Saber. Plus, her situation is part of the war anyway, so she's bound to get involved.

The way you say this implies that Saber is the 'natural' choice for Shirou, and that only if she vanishes would he ever pick anyone else. To me, it's the other way around. Sakura is the natural choice. He loves her already, and all that needs to happen is for him to realise this. So, it's only natural that he would attempt to protect her if she's feeling ill. and to protect her from Shinji. I don't see how any of the events of the war prior to the school/church scenes would have gone any differently if Saber had been around, and once you've been through those, you're guarenteed to end up on the Sakura route
Well, show me an HF route with Saber there and I'll believe you. If he loves her already what happens in Fate and UBW? Since he falls in love with Saber and Rin he never realizes he loves Sakura then? Doesn't sound like love to me. i always thought he had feelings for her prior to HF, not out and out love, that's something that develops in route.
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Old 2010-06-11, 11:20   Link #2056
willyvereb
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@Endscape: It seems you didn't fully read my post or decided to ignore a few parts of it.
I am lazy to cite your post so I do it the easier way.

I get to the point. You clearly generalizing and it appears you are adamant on anti-shipping Sakura.For starters calling someone mentally unstable wouldn't prove anything. Instability as chaos has many forms. Unstable people tend to still find some kind of new order to resort to. Claiming someone mentally unstable doesn't automatically mean they are the incarnates of devil and must be abhorred and avoided at all costs. To begin with whether someone mentally unstable depends heavily on viewpoint. Just from forum post I can prove that you or anyone else is mentally unstable because of this and that. It's easy, mentally unstable AKA crazy or abnormal means someone has an attitude or behavior different from the norm.At least those are the signs of that. But let's leave it because it leads to nowhere.

You claimed post-HF Sakura mentally unstable. True, her situation isn't normal like her circumstances were but she's certainly recuperating with very promising results. You stated that Sakura in HF-normal is the proof she's sick. Well, it's more like she keeps being chained to the past. In my view it's mental instability but according to the general idea it really isn't. She simply can't move forward. Many horrible things happened in his life,she unconsciously committed horrible deeds and she lost the most precious person in her life. How you expect her to live a normal life? Have you ever experienced the death of someone close to you? Have you ever experienced a situation where you lost your very last bit of hope? That's what Sakura experienced though to the credit of her state she still managed fine. She realized that Shirou did it all for her sake,she realized that she must be happy and not sadden her Senpai in Heaven by giving in to the guilt. She remained strong but she still couldn't go on. Ironically it's exactly because Shirou's sacrifice. The one she admired for 4 long years, the one who showed her how to endure her horrible life and the one she saw as her only linger of hope is dead. He died to give her the well-deserved freedom. That's why she can't leave the house. The memories binding her to that place were incredibly strong. Still, she wasn't mentally unstable by the general viewpoint. She was heartbroken, bitter inside but she lead a relatively normal life. She stayed in the Emiya residence, took on Rin's job at overseeing Fuyuki and acted as a loving and caring aunt for Rin's child. Do you really think that this is the profile of someone who can't be trusted?

It appears that you may have yet to fall really in love with someone. That or you simply don't try to think about Sakura's situation much. Perhaps as a third option you may haven't read the storyline of Heavens Feel properly and skipped the details. Anyways, your statement about Sakura lacks base. It may even be because of your relative idealism. If so then it's a good proof to show how unreasonable and judgmental the idealistic view really is. Idealism simplifies the otherwise complicate matters at the cost of truth. I am not saying it's bad as we can't be all-knowing but a certain balance is always needed.

It seems I am drifting away from the topic. Well, in short neither Sakura's situation nor her past deeds make her unsuitable to be in a relationship. Sakura can't really be happy without Shirou. I can't say she can't live as she possess an extreme attachment to life, maybe because she never had much of it. She isn't clingy either, to be precise she's so reserved that she wouldn't dare to bother anyone, or at least before she gets some confidence. She needs to gather her confidence and see her own worth in life which she will eventually get together with Shirou. Shirou, our protagonist is the same. He has to make peace with his past, find his real self and accustom to his new reforged ideal and life. He needs Sakura almost just as much. Not because the horrible experienced made him that broken but because he was secretly broken to begin with.

Of course, you're free to not like or hate Sakura and her pairing with Shirou in private. Whether you like or hate something is a subjective matter. One can love something while the other could hate it without, neither needs a reason.

Oh, I have another miss! I forgot to mention the matters regarding Shirou's choice. Well, it has much to do with his own feelings. People aren't machines to follow a single code for everything (Except Kiritsugu though he is often called as a virtually heartless killing machine so...). Shirou loved Sakura so much he can't hate her no matter what. Actually, he slowly realized that the Shadow who goes around in town and kills people without exception is Sakura.But he consciously blocked that revelation and strongly denied the idea. We can't blame him though. He's just a human who can't believe something as ridiculous as that. He didin't have a proof to back up that suspicion. And what he can do even if he realizes it and knowledges that as a fact? Kill her? He might have tried if he didn't love Sakura so much but even if he tries Rider would kill him before he succeeds. Then? Premediated well thought out murder? That really isn't Shirou's style and would lead to a MoS style broken Kirigitsu-style emotionless man. Do we really want to blame and despise Shirou for not turning into a hollow man? It sounds really ridiculous. Perhaps tracing Rule Breaker may have worked but Shirou isn't smart enough to come up with that without knowing the exact nature of Sakura's affliction.

Then at the second confrontation where Shirou needed to make a choice again he decides to save her. Why, you ask? Because Shirou realizes that she isn't beyond saving. Her speech if you remember clearly mirrors that. She explicitly warns them what's about to come, how they must run away and she even offers that she will try her hardest and commit suicide to prevent AM's awakening (something which he fails to do because of the far-spread influence of AM and Zouken's tampering). This is clearly not the way a completely crazy and psycho woman speaks. To add she had more than enough power to crush Shirou and Rin like bugs but she decided to not to. Rin doesn't or decides to not ot realize this and blatantly states Sakura is beyond saving. But it isn't like that for Shirou. To begin with he isn't the type to give up. Also he's quick to pick up the signs after the confrontation (Of course he was utterly shocked and said some unreasonable and stupid things when he saw her like that). He remembers Rule Breaker and that AM-whatever and his contract to Sakura is responsible for this whole mess. He doesn't need anything else besides that. Actually contrary to your statement Shirou's idea was quite reasonable and sound for the change. The one who kept being unreasonable was ironically Rin.

In addition as Cherry Lover stated too at that point fighting and killing Sakura was the harder route. Dark Sakura was a way too overpowering. Even with the assistance of the Jewelled Sword of Zelretch all Rin could manage was perpetural draw...well, until her body gives in to the stress and crumbles from overusing magic. The only way she could turn the tables by sacrificing the Sword and using every bit of its power and charge in. Though even then there's the question of Sakura's insanely fast regeneration and the fact that Saber Alter's interference destined Rin's attempt to fail. If you condemn Shirou for his choice and actions you truly don't understand the situation in HF. He wasn't a saint of course but a human being. You're just shifting the blame on him and Sakura, two people who just have drifted along with the situation. It's like the regular hypocrisy about hating weapons, especially guns. Indeed, they are tools of war and murder but who invented those? Guess Who? Us! We made them for killing and it isn't the gun which kills the people but the man who pulls the trigger. In Sakura's case it means Zouken and AM to blame.(though after HA I am not sure about the later). As it was expected they've got their punishment. Also contrary to the guns Sakura could change and live a life different from what her "maker"(Zouken) intended. I think I don't need to elaborate this more.
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Old 2010-06-11, 12:19   Link #2057
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Maybe. The best laid plans of mice and men, you know... or in the case the best laid plans of worm-men?
Well, perhaps, but he's not stupid enough to get himself killed in that way.

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Shirou's boundary field detects killing intent. i don't recall but can it detect Sernat's killing intent is spirit form?
I'm pretty sure it can, yes. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much use....

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Didn't he say he wasn't sure that he could do that?
I don't think he could do it quickly, but all he has to do is activate the worms until she dies/breaks down and then take her body.

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Shirou and Sakura? don't seem mentally unstable? OK, then...
Well, they don't act like it.

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I didn't know Emiya Shirou was so amazing, that he's the only person in the world that can help Sakura.
The problem is that she needs someone who she can talk to, and Shirou is the only person who she knows who can do that. It's not impossible for her to find someone else, but it's damn hard....

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And Rin can do just as good a job of getting him to think of himself as Sakura can, and he doesn't even have to throw away his ideals to do so.
How?

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Yet. That's what always ends up happening in the end.
Bullshit. You're just making things up now. You have no reason to believe their relationship will fail. Personally, I think Rin's relationship with Shirou will fail, because of her Tsundereness. OTOH, I don't see any reason why he will ever break up with Sakura.

This argument is not borne out in any way by the VN. They don't seem to be arguing, or in any way in a situation where their relationship is likely to break. And, since they've been together for two years now and seem mostly fixed, if it was going to happen it would have happened already.

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It isn't unhealthy for them to start a relationship deeply in love. It's unhealthy for them to start a romantic relationship when each of them can't exist without the other due to their metal problems.
Rubbish. It's unhealthy for them not to do so, if they need each other that much. Obviously, that kind of over-reliance on each other isn't a good thing in the long run, but they'll gradually learn that there is more to life than just each other. But, denying themselves the only happiness they have is just plain retarded.

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So in your mind just because they're in love, two people with mental issues should get together and end up messing each other up.
Except that they're not messing each other up. You're pulling all of this out of your ass.

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I suppose that after someone gets raped, you're remedy would be sending her home to have sex with her boyfriend, trauma be damned.
No, but there's a difference between having sex after you've been raped and getting into a relationship with someone you deeply love.

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Yeah, that's what I meant. He was so in love with her he chose her over everyone else.
He chose to put her first, anyway. He still wanted to save as many others as possible too.

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But by the time Zouken talked to him, she had already killed and was going to keep killing, so that doesn't count. The situation is more like a snap choice: my loved one or everyone else.
You're getting two arguments confused here. There is the question "was MoS Shirou right?" and the question "should Shirou have killed Sakura the second time?". I was arguing about the first here, not the second. IMO, the second is a lot more dubious than the first (although, in my mind, anyone with half a brain would have realised that doing what Zouken told them to do was a bad idea)

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When I meant breaking, I didn't mean going through the entire MoS lifestyle, just that decision, my loved one or everybody else. Most people who chose to kill their loved one would just hate themselves and eventually keep moving onwards.
It'd be a damn hard thing to get over, that's for certain. Especially for a superhero who had dedicated their lives to saving others, only to realise that they couldn't save the person they loved.

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Well, show me an HF route with Saber there and I'll believe you.
Show me a Fate or UBW route where Sakura doesn't disappear on day 5 or 6 and I'll believe that it wasn't inevitable that Sakura would end up with Shirou if she wasn't bumped out of the way.

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If he loves her already what happens in Fate and UBW? Since he falls in love with Saber and Rin he never realizes he loves Sakura then?
Well, there's nothing to prevent him getting with her post-Fate. But, the reason he doesn't realise it is because he's in denial, because in his mind it's wrong for him to think of her in that way. It doesn't help that Sakura is actively avoiding such a relationship, either.

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Doesn't sound like love to me. i always thought he had feelings for her prior to HF, not out and out love, that's something that develops in route.
He certainly cares for her deeply, and in HF he comes to realise that he finds her extremely attractive too. But, the way HF plays it certainly implies that it's merely a discovery of his true feelings (which, in the other routes, get buried beneath his feelings for Saber/Rin) rather than him actually falling for her.
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Old 2010-06-11, 16:21   Link #2058
Endscape
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@Endscape: It seems you didn't fully read my post or decided to ignore a few parts of it.
I am lazy to cite your post so I do it the easier way.

I get to the point. You clearly generalizing and it appears you are adamant on anti-shipping Sakura.For starters calling someone mentally unstable wouldn't prove anything. Instability as chaos has many forms. Unstable people tend to still find some kind of new order to resort to. Claiming someone mentally unstable doesn't automatically mean they are the incarnates of devil and must be abhorred and avoided at all costs. To begin with whether someone mentally unstable depends heavily on viewpoint. Just from forum post I can prove that you or anyone else is mentally unstable because of this and that. It's easy, mentally unstable AKA crazy or abnormal means someone has an attitude or behavior different from the norm.At least those are the signs of that. But let's leave it because it leads to nowhere.

You claimed post-HF Sakura mentally unstable. True, her situation isn't normal like her circumstances were but she's certainly recuperating with very promising results. You stated that Sakura in HF-normal is the proof she's sick. Well, it's more like she keeps being chained to the past. In my view it's mental instability but according to the general idea it really isn't. She simply can't move forward. Many horrible things happened in his life,she unconsciously committed horrible deeds and she lost the most precious person in her life. How you expect her to live a normal life? Have you ever experienced the death of someone close to you? Have you ever experienced a situation where you lost your very last bit of hope? That's what Sakura experienced though to the credit of her state she still managed fine. She realized that Shirou did it all for her sake,she realized that she must be happy and not sadden her Senpai in Heaven by giving in to the guilt. She remained strong but she still couldn't go on. Ironically it's exactly because Shirou's sacrifice. The one she admired for 4 long years, the one who showed her how to endure her horrible life and the one she saw as her only linger of hope is dead. He died to give her the well-deserved freedom. That's why she can't leave the house. The memories binding her to that place were incredibly strong. Still, she wasn't mentally unstable by the general viewpoint. She was heartbroken, bitter inside but she lead a relatively normal life. She stayed in the Emiya residence, took on Rin's job at overseeing Fuyuki and acted as a loving and caring aunt for Rin's child. Do you really think that this is the profile of someone who can't be trusted?

It seems that you didn't read my post very well, willyvereb. One, I have no problem with Sakura, though she is my least favourite F/SN heroine. Also I have no problem with mentally unstable people ,or think of them as the devil or hate them or anything like that.

I simply think that Sakura should work out her problems before getting into a relationship. And that starting a relationship utterly depending on the other party isn't a good thing for anyone.

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Well, perhaps, but he's not stupid enough to get himself killed in that way.
Who knows?

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I'm pretty sure it can, yes. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much use....
I'll take your word for it.

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I don't think he could do it quickly, but all he has to do is activate the worms until she dies/breaks down and then take her body.
By the time her mind broke down from the pain, would her body be any good anyway?

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Well, they don't act like it.
Well, I'm sorry I must have imagined all the torture Sakura went through or Shirou's various problems...

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The problem is that she needs someone who she can talk to, and Shirou is the only person who she knows who can do that. It's not impossible for her to find someone else, but it's damn hard....
But he isn't the only possible person on the planet, so don't act like he is.

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How?
That's a really odd statement. Then how would Sakura help him then?

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Bullshit. You're just making things up now. You have no reason to believe their relationship will fail. Personally, I think Rin's relationship with Shirou will fail, because of her Tsundereness. OTOH, I don't see any reason why he will ever break up with Sakura.

This argument is not borne out in any way by the VN. They don't seem to be arguing, or in any way in a situation where their relationship is likely to break. And, since they've been together for two years now and seem mostly fixed, if it was going to happen it would have happened already.
Maybe I was generalizing. usually such relationships fall apart but I suppose Shirou and Sakura can beat the odds.

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Rubbish. It's unhealthy for them not to do so, if they need each other that much. Obviously, that kind of over-reliance on each other isn't a good thing in the long run, but they'll gradually learn that there is more to life than just each other. But, denying themselves the only happiness they have is just plain retarded.
Well if you believe that, fine by you. I believe that people shouldn't start relationships when they have unresolved issues. Maybe Shirou and Sakura can beat those odds, but I wouldn't test it. better safe than sorry, they say.

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Except that they're not messing each other up. You're pulling all of this out of your ass.
I said that two people with their problems shouldn't start a relationship lest they mess themselves in the end. If they can do that and not mess themselves up, wonderful (you're right in that they don't seem to have any problems) but they shouldn't take that chance.

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No, but there's a difference between having sex after you've been raped and getting into a relationship with someone you deeply love.
... You didn't read what I posted, did you. I didn't say that a rape victims hould go out and have random sex, but shouldn't jump straight into a sexual relationship with someone they care about.

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It'd be a damn hard thing to get over, that's for certain. Especially for a superhero who had dedicated their lives to saving others, only to realise that they couldn't save the person they loved.
It would hurt and some wouldn't over it. But some would.

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Show me a Fate or UBW route where Sakura doesn't disappear on day 5 or 6 and I'll believe that it wasn't inevitable that Sakura would end up with Shirou if she wasn't bumped out of the way.
Didn't he start paying special attention to her since she was getting so sick all the time, due to Angra Mainyu?

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He certainly cares for her deeply, and in HF he comes to realise that he finds her extremely attractive too. But, the way HF plays it certainly implies that it's merely a discovery of his true feelings (which, in the other routes, get buried beneath his feelings for Saber/Rin) rather than him actually falling for her.
Really? If his love can get buried and forgotten so easily, is it love? That's why i thought he fell in love with her during HF
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Old 2010-06-12, 11:04   Link #2059
willyvereb
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Really? If his love can get buried and forgotten so easily, is it love? That's why i thought he fell in love with her during HF
Indeed, on this point though you're right. Shirou wasn't in love with her. He and Sakura were really close and Shirou even harbored something akin to a crush on her but it wasn't love. It became one as Shirou and Sakura got to spend more time together and he ceased to block the romantic thoughts concerning her.
Why he had forgotten her in the other routes? Well, Sakura was pretty much outside of danger and didn't take any active role in the other routes. Still, he has shown quite a concern for Sakura's well-being. For example that kind of concern is partially the reason how he got closer to Rin in UBW. One of the four somewhat romantic scenes were when Shirou decided to check on Sakura after Rider's defeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
It seems that you didn't read my post very well, willyvereb. One, I have no problem with Sakura, though she is my least favourite F/SN heroine. Also I have no problem with mentally unstable people ,or think of them as the devil or hate them or anything like that.

I simply think that Sakura should work out her problems before getting into a relationship. And that starting a relationship utterly depending on the other party isn't a good thing for anyone.
It doesn't matter because your opinion is still the same. It seems you're the one who takes no attention to the posts of others. First off I wonder on what you base that Sakura's mentally unstable after HF? She's more like emotionally scarred. From that view Saber too is mentally unstable as she lives with the constant guilt about her country. With a little twist even Rin is the same. Your statements are baseless and you give little reasoning behind it. It may be that you're just trying to bash their relationship. Well, good luck.
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Old 2010-06-12, 12:36   Link #2060
Grey
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
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Originally Posted by Jarmel
The route would have certainly had a bad end if he hadn't gotten the sudden powerup from Archer(which is another complaint I have with the route).
As opposed to MoS, where he is left to fight Ilya, Rin and Gilgamesh with no allies and no power at all? If anything is a certain bad end, that is.
That's why it's interesting when MoS Kotomine says Shirou will win. It makes me wonder if Kotomine would stop Gil from interfering with Shirou, because I'm really not sure how Shirou would win. It's interesting to think about it though.

The obvious way for Shirou to work is laying low, watching, and sniping when he could get away with it, like Kiritsugu once did. If he could get a rifle from the yakuza he's acquainted with, that could work out quite well. For instance, if Berserker was finishing off Archer (and far enough away from Ilya) that would be a perfect time to shoot Ilya. Two Servants and one Master down.

I'm still not sure how Kotomine expects Shirou to beat him and Gil though.
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