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Old 2010-06-11, 12:02   Link #25341
DezoPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
It's something I'm debating at this point. It's not like the NSIS specifically needs clearance to use the information, and Chrono has enough power to do it on his own without having to all out tell Yuuno what it's for; but at the same time it feels weird because if he definitely knows, then that means that more people were lying to Nanoha about it than just Chrono and Lutecia (and possibly Lindy and Amy, but eh). And since I'm thinking of using this one-shot as a means to show how another person knows, I'm kind of wary of having too many people know because then it becomes a question of how Nanoha never found out in the first place.
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Well, it's about position and relation. Yuuno knows by position, Fate by relation, Hayate by position. Nanoha eventually by relation (x2). She's not really in a position to know, and isn't close enough to Chrono to find out in a direct relation way.

If that makes sense.
And more to the point...Nanoha already knows about the NSIS. It's in "Caught Within Shadows"--Fate told her about Chrono being head of the agency back when Chrono was appointed (it's when they're discussing classified info, and Nanoha points out that Fate shouldn't even have told her about it and Fate gets all "You come first" about their marriage). What Nanoha didn't know until chapter 1 of "Sunrise" was that Lutecia was an agent with the NSIS--that's something that Chrono and Hayate (and maybe Verossa) of the canon cast were the only ones who knew.

Note that I'd strongly be against Yuuno knowing that Lutecia was an NSIS agent, because then you would have the lying-to-Nanoha issue. Telling Nanoha or not telling Nanoha that there's a secret agency in the TSAB is one thing; holding back the information that Vivio is dating a covert-ops agent and assassin is a very different matter. But there's no reason for Yuuno to know that; his dealings wouldn't necessarily be with field ops but with research and administration staff seeking data.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
In false light, Yuuno is in on the secret, but not officially, and actually works with EAID (the information/hacking/computer-nerd section of NSIS), but it's all cloak-and-dagger stuff; EAID analysts hide behind various covers when requesting information from the Library. He doesn't actually know Celica, though--at least, not what she looks like (which is why she was able to go to the Library under a phony alias and research the Precursor Artifact), though they have corresponded through the Midchildan equivalent of e-mail, with Celica behind various aliases.

*snip*

This is how I've been working it, honestly. NSIS gets what they need from the Library the same way Celica did in Chapter 2--they lie like hell, use phony identities and forge Bureau-approved authorizations. As you said, Chrono's got enough power to give any of his technical agents or analysts enough authorizations and credentials to get pretty much anything they want out of the Library, without having to officially tell Yuuno anything.
This is definitely something I agree with--whether Yuuno does or does not know of the NSIS, and whether that knowledge is "You are the Head Librarian of the Infinity Library and you are Entitled to Know" or just something he picked up along the way, either way the NSIS would definitely use unofficial channels to access information, because they wouldn't want to leave any kind of data log of activities.

One thing to note--now that, post-"Sunrise," Vivio is in on the secret, she could actually be one of those unofficial channels.

Quote:
The man is very trustworthy and does have access to more sensitive and dangerous information than any one person in the entire Bureau system (with the exception of Celica, perhaps), but if he knew for sure, then that would pose an issue re: Nanoha.
Again, remember that Nanoha does officially know...although there's nothing that says Yuuno knows that she knows, especially if his own knowledge is purely deduction. (Actually, Nanoha not being an idiot herself, she probably cornered Chrono and asked him point-blank who she could talk to about this and who she couldn't, and after substantial grumbling about blabbermouth sisters they'd get down to brass tacks.)
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Old 2010-06-11, 13:10   Link #25342
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Actually, Fate telling Nanoha is probably a crime.

Chrono would hold that over Nanoha's head to keep her quiet about the whole thing.

For that matter, Fate shouldn't know, for all that Chrono probably has a soft spot for her.
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Old 2010-06-11, 15:18   Link #25343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasanagi View Post
Spoiler for More Material Days:


Still tinkering around with the bit to introduce the last Material.
Um, wow... D sure is harsh, huh? Heh, makes me wonder what the heck they're fighting against...

I think you got her spot-on, actually.

"I don't know who that is, but never say it again!" - Excellent line!
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Old 2010-06-11, 15:47   Link #25344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Actually, Fate telling Nanoha is probably a crime.

Chrono would hold that over Nanoha's head to keep her quiet about the whole thing.

For that matter, Fate shouldn't know, for all that Chrono probably has a soft spot for her.
Well, Fate and Nanoha definitely shouldn't know, but calling it a "crime" is harsh. There's no legal punishment for admitting such things so long as it's kept private between the parties; it's more a matter of the less people know about the NSIS and who the Shadows are as individuals, the better. Makes it harder to single them out for an attack.
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Old 2010-06-11, 16:05   Link #25345
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It depends on what Nanoha's security clearance looks like. If she's got the clearance to know these things officially, then it's no problem. If she doesn't have the proper security clearance, then if someone who officially knows told her, that person would be committing a crime--leaking classified information.

Plus Celica would probably hunt them down and put 200 gigs of gay bestiality porn on their office computer for making her job harder.

Edit: We should make a Shadowsverse Wiki.
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Old 2010-06-11, 16:48   Link #25346
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Well, Fate and Nanoha definitely shouldn't know, but calling it a "crime" is harsh. There's no legal punishment for admitting such things so long as it's kept private between the parties; it's more a matter of the less people know about the NSIS and who the Shadows are as individuals, the better. Makes it harder to single them out for an attack.
That makes no sense.

If someone with proper clearances admits to someone without proper clearances classified information, they have committed a crime (by violating a contract with the government - a non-disclosure agreement). Now, Chrono may be the person who determines whether a crime is committed in this fashion when it comes to NSIS information, including fact-of, agent identities, intel, etc., as he might determine what level of classification any of those pieces of information are.

Heck, if someone with proper clearances says aloud classified information outside of a Secured Area, they have committed a Security Violation (not a crime), no matter if they leaked the info to someone they shouldn't have, or not.
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Old 2010-06-11, 17:14   Link #25347
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All this discussion is largely academic anyway. Well, it all relies on whether the character of someone like Chrono would run an operation like this in the first place, which is highly doubtful. You may as well be expecting Nanoha to summarily execute people instead of just knocking them out.

In short, do/write what you want, but arguing about what kind of sense it makes overall is fairly superfluous.
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Old 2010-06-11, 17:41   Link #25348
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
That makes no sense.

If someone with proper clearances admits to someone without proper clearances classified information, they have committed a crime (by violating a contract with the government - a non-disclosure agreement). Now, Chrono may be the person who determines whether a crime is committed in this fashion when it comes to NSIS information, including fact-of, agent identities, intel, etc., as he might determine what level of classification any of those pieces of information are.

Heck, if someone with proper clearances says aloud classified information outside of a Secured Area, they have committed a Security Violation (not a crime), no matter if they leaked the info to someone they shouldn't have, or not.
Honestly, you're questioning and discussing something I myself never figured out. And I still don't know how to. My original thought with the Shadows was that nobody knew about them simply because if they did know, they would be vulnerable and open to attack by an opposing organization or something. I never actually ironed out the details of what counted as a crime and what didn't by NSIS standards, so you're starting to delve into things that never crossed my mind.

Ultimately, though, I personally avoid it falling into "crime" territory because then Lutecia's breaking down and confessing to Vivio in "Shadow" has much nastier implications than I originally intended.
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Old 2010-06-11, 17:45   Link #25349
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Well, the folks over at NSIS tend to take care of their own, and in a situation like that I don't see anyone prosecuting anyone. I doubt Chrono would actually punish Lutecia for telling Vivio, but knowing him, he would probably give her a stern dressing-down in his office when he found out.

Then, off the record, he would likely worry about her.
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Old 2010-06-11, 18:12   Link #25350
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Eh. I still say the opinions of others shouldn't hold so much power over you with something you want to write, but I'll back down on it.
Well, writing is meant to be read, so if no one is interested and won't read it, there's really no point. It's like practising really hard for a play you're in, only for no one to buy tickets. You wouldn't perform in front of an empty theater.

Every time I consider working on it, I keep thinking "It's not like anyone is looking forward to it, so why even bother?" and lose all motivation. No matter how much I try to convince myself otherwise, it doesn't work and I still feel like shit. No one ever brings it up or references it, and there's many people on record telling me the fic sucked in the first place and that the ViCia ending was the 'right' thing to do, so the evidence is stacked against me. Not to mention that when I posted the last batch of fics, I basically had to beg people to take a look at them. That's why I asked if anyone still cared in an attempt to tip the scales even a little bit.

Yes, I want to write it but I can't because I feel down when I think it'll just be a waste of time and I can't overcome that mindset by myself.

*Sigh* But I guess you wouldn't understand. Everytime you post something it results in 3 pages of discussion, everyone constantly mentions how they're looking forward to Vivio turning 18, and you've got like six other authors writing spin offs of your work. You have no reason to doubt yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasanagi View Post
Spoiler for More Material Days:


Still tinkering around with the bit to introduce the last Material.
Oh my, Yuuno's run into a real troublesome person, hasn't he? Now he just has to meet Material-S. I'm sure he'll be happy to find some one not psychotic!
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Old 2010-06-11, 19:37   Link #25351
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If it's worth anything Raiser, I enjoy your fics. And I would like to read it, if you wrote it.

BTW, are you gonna update Rise of the Demon Kaiser, anytime soon?
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Old 2010-06-11, 19:51   Link #25352
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
*Sigh* But I guess you wouldn't understand. Everytime you post something it results in 3 pages of discussion, everyone constantly mentions how they're looking forward to Vivio turning 18, and you've got like six other authors writing spin offs of your work. You have no reason to doubt yourself.
QFFT man. QFFT.
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Old 2010-06-11, 19:52   Link #25353
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It depends on what Nanoha's security clearance looks like. If she's got the clearance to know these things officially, then it's no problem. If she doesn't have the proper security clearance, then if someone who officially knows told her, that person would be committing a crime--leaking classified information.

Plus Celica would probably hunt them down and put 200 gigs of gay bestiality porn on their office computer for making her job harder.
Presumably you mean "the computer of the one who told her" instead of Nanoha's. Celica could lose 100 IQ points and still be nowhere near THAT stupid!

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Edit: We should make a Shadowsverse Wiki.
Honestly, there's not all that much out there to Wiki about, when you get right down to it. RadiantBeam, being the person who created the idea, after all, hasn't sat down and cranked out reams of data on the NSIS in classic nerdgasm style simply because she never needed to do so for what she uses them for. Most of us are adding bits and pieces around the fringes, but lots of stories also throw in our own, "unofficial" take on things (for example, you bring in your own IAFW organization in order to better define the political status of the TSAB; deathcurse's non-fanon Crime Never Sleeps uses the NSIS as more akin to the CIA, in that in her fic it's a publicly existing agency whose operations are, however, covert and classified; also for example, all my stories that actually feature Vivio and Lutecia are in fact non-fanon so their take on the core relationship is babble!).

A fanfiction.net community makes more sense as a good way to organize everybody's stories (indeed, the TVTropes recommendation for "Shadowfire" accurately points out that the hardest thing about just RadiantBeam's ViCia stories alone is figuring out what they are and what order to read them in).

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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
That makes no sense.

If someone with proper clearances admits to someone without proper clearances classified information, they have committed a crime (by violating a contract with the government - a non-disclosure agreement). Now, Chrono may be the person who determines whether a crime is committed in this fashion when it comes to NSIS information, including fact-of, agent identities, intel, etc., as he might determine what level of classification any of those pieces of information are.

Heck, if someone with proper clearances says aloud classified information outside of a Secured Area, they have committed a Security Violation (not a crime), no matter if they leaked the info to someone they shouldn't have, or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Honestly, you're questioning and discussing something I myself never figured out. And I still don't know how to. My original thought with the Shadows was that nobody knew about them simply because if they did know, they would be vulnerable and open to attack by an opposing organization or something. I never actually ironed out the details of what counted as a crime and what didn't by NSIS standards, so you're starting to delve into things that never crossed my mind.

Ultimately, though, I personally avoid it falling into "crime" territory because then Lutecia's breaking down and confessing to Vivio in "Shadow" has much nastier implications than I originally intended.
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Well, the folks over at NSIS tend to take care of their own, and in a situation like that I don't see anyone prosecuting anyone. I doubt Chrono would actually punish Lutecia for telling Vivio, but knowing him, he would probably give her a stern dressing-down in his office when he found out.

Then, off the record, he would likely worry about her.
Ahh, fun debates. Here we discuss the implications of disclosing data about an organization whose level of classification is unknown, to people whose level of security clearance is unknown, operating within a political/legal system with unknown parameters. Kind of like a big ball of "hell if I know!"

(Also consider the point that RadiantBeam alluded to above--there's two separate things to consider, the "you have disclosed classified data to an individual without sufficient clearance" question, which might be contractual or criminal, and there's the "a covert ops organization is now slotted off at you for disclosing classified data about them.")

I'd like to note that so far as I know, IRL, it's generally considered a bad thing for a covert operative to have an emotional breakdown and tell their significant other all about a mission which went wrong. Particularly given that the mission involved blackmail and ended in the deaths of innocent people. As the line goes, there's three levels of classification: Secret, Top Secret, and Don't Tell Your Wife.

On the other hand, the said significant other is also the agency director's niece and very likely holds a security clearance higher than exactly equal to God. So this is not one that anybody's going to take any official action against Lutecia over unless Vivio starts screaming in the streets over it.

Actually...I just realized, I actually already wrote about Chrono's response to this whole issue in "The Shadows We Cast." *pauses to reread* Damn, I always forget how much background detail I put in there. I need to go do something about that Ascension plot-thread I dropped in and then promptly totally forgot about.
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Old 2010-06-11, 20:08   Link #25354
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
indeed, the TVTropes recommendation for "Shadowfire" accurately points out that the hardest thing about just RadiantBeam's ViCia stories alone is figuring out what they are and what order to read them in.
Well, the whole order thing shouldn't be a problem since I listed the stories in order on my profile page. Unles they're specifically referring to the "Shadowfire" drabbles I've been posting, in which case I'm afraid to say I'd be no help. My basic mindset was that "these take place sometime over the series!" and pretty much ran wild with stuff I couldn't fit into the canon one-shots.


Quote:
I need to go do something about that Ascension plot-thread I dropped in and then promptly totally forgot about.
.... I need to go back and reread that now; I totally forgot about that plot thread, too!
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Old 2010-06-11, 21:58   Link #25355
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... Wow, I guess such a simple question as Mr. Scrya's clearance and knowledge or lack thereof really has opened a can of worms.

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Well, writing is meant to be read, so if no one is interested and won't read it, there's really no point. It's like practising really hard for a play you're in, only for no one to buy tickets. You wouldn't perform in front of an empty theater.

Every time I consider working on it, I keep thinking "It's not like anyone is looking forward to it, so why even bother?" and lose all motivation. No matter how much I try to convince myself otherwise, it doesn't work and I still feel like shit. No one ever brings it up or references it, and there's many people on record telling me the fic sucked in the first place and that the ViCia ending was the 'right' thing to do, so the evidence is stacked against me. Not to mention that when I posted the last batch of fics, I basically had to beg people to take a look at them. That's why I asked if anyone still cared in an attempt to tip the scales even a little bit.

Yes, I want to write it but I can't because I feel down when I think it'll just be a waste of time and I can't overcome that mindset by myself.

*Sigh* But I guess you wouldn't understand. Everytime you post something it results in 3 pages of discussion, everyone constantly mentions how they're looking forward to Vivio turning 18, and you've got like six other authors writing spin offs of your work. You have no reason to doubt yourself.
Raiser, mate, you're not alone here. I have stuff that I also put a lot of effort into *COUGH*prinzvonsommerhoffnung*COUGH* that gets ignored at best, flamed at worst.

I still write. I write because I want to see it done. At first, I cared about reviews, about viewing statistics. It took me a while to realise that those ultimately don't matter. Once, I was disheartened by the flames, by the people who failed to recognise what I was driving at. I recognised only after some time that I had to write, that it would be victory for the naysayers if they succeeded in pushing me down, in never getting up again. I don't accept that. No one can keep a good man down but himself. History has proven that. Have I lost anything if no one bothers to read my work? Time? No. I don't consider it a waste of time. In fact, it helps me to stay focused on other things when I clear out the plot bunnies bounding about in my head. It is their loss, not mine.

Apologies for the insurmountable waist high fence of text.
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Old 2010-06-11, 22:26   Link #25356
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If it's worth anything Raiser, I enjoy your fics. And I would like to read it, if you wrote it.

BTW, are you gonna update Rise of the Demon Kaiser, anytime soon?
Thank you for the support. Thanks to Yasanagi, Nya~n, and WarpObscura for speaking up too. Nanya and Satashi as well, who are always having to put up with me

I'm feeling a bit better now. Hopefully my mood'll pass once I get more than 4 hours of sleep...

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BTW, are you gonna update Rise of the Demon Kaiser, anytime soon?
I'm glad you asked that I like when people say stuff like this because it tells me that some one remembers my fics and want more of them.

To answer your question specifically, I have the next chapter pretty much all planned out in my head, so it's just a question of when I can find some time to sit down and write it out. Sadly since I started working I usually have no energy to write when I get home during the week, so that just leaves the weekends. Weekends however are generally filled with anime-catching-up and general laziness Well, maybe this weekend I'll kick myself in the ass and get a move on...

But right now I'm working on a little something for those making visual novels. I'll post it in a bit

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Raiser, mate, you're not alone here. I have stuff that I also put a lot of effort into *COUGH*prinzvonsommerhoffnung*COUGH* that gets ignored at best, flamed at worst.

I still write. I write because I want to see it done. At first, I cared about reviews, about viewing statistics. It took me a while to realise that those ultimately don't matter. Once, I was disheartened by the flames, by the people who failed to recognise what I was driving at. I recognised only after some time that I had to write, that it would be victory for the naysayers if they succeeded in pushing me down, in never getting up again. I don't accept that. No one can keep a good man down but himself. History has proven that. Have I lost anything if no one bothers to read my work? Time? No. I don't consider it a waste of time. In fact, it helps me to stay focused on other things when I clear out the plot bunnies bounding about in my head. It is their loss, not mine.
Well, while the flamers factor into it a bit, I think what's worse is that this community we have here which is supposed to be supportive isn't being very supportive. I've noticed in the past few weeks that any fic not set in the Shadowverse gets only one or two comments. Heck, the past few chapters of Nanya's Day in the Life have only me and deathcurse saying anything about them. Maybe people are just busy or on vacation or something, but then again as said before any Shadowverse fic posted gets pages of discussion. Heck, I had posted 2 fic ideas not too long ago but no one even acknowledged their existence.

It would just be nice to know that people care and appreciate the work of others, even if all they have to say is "I liked it." That's why it's my vow to review everything I read so that no one else feels neglected.
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Old 2010-06-11, 22:55   Link #25357
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It's the way of humanity, there are cliques everywhere. I keep posting here for now, but yeah, it's tough to see good fics get buried because of talk about minutiae for a single fic. I write and post for me, but take it as a sign that your fic is perfect, if no one posts anything.; it means there was nothing wrong with it! ;p
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Old 2010-06-11, 22:58   Link #25358
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It's the way of humanity, there are cliques everywhere. I keep posting here for now, but yeah, it's tough to see good fics get buried because of talk about minutiae for a single fic. I write and post for me, but take it as a sign that your fic is perfect, if no one posts anything.; it means there was nothing wrong with it! ;p
The problem is, I know my stuff's not perfect.

When i get no comments towards anything of the like, I wonder "what's wrong with my fic?"

Not to mention that I'd like comments on things specifically in the chapter. Anything that sticks out. Cuz I write, and I really like a specific scene that I did, but I get no comments on any scenes, it makes me go "did anyone even like it?" even if I get comments saying "good job", I sometimes wonder if anyone even read any of the scenes.
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Old 2010-06-11, 23:12   Link #25359
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I actually have a terrible habit of not commenting unless there's something that really needs to be said. Despite this, I also feel kinda bad when I get few to little comments.

That said, I suppose I don't get much because I write with OCs...

Propagating the problem, awww yeah.
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Old 2010-06-11, 23:17   Link #25360
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So... Here's a little something...

Honestly, I don't think it's complete, but I'll see what (if any) comments I get for it.

Spoiler for Day in the Life Chapter 37:


I wonder how many people want to kill me right now...

*Claims the page in the name of protective shields*
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