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Old 2010-06-12, 04:59   Link #10941
Thunder Book
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Anpther interesting thing to note SeagullCrazy is that the Odds always have an Endless Witch introduced. Beato in Episode 1, EVA/ANGE (Also MARIA) in Episode 3, and BATTLER of course in Episode 5.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:11   Link #10942
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbook
An interesting thing to note SeagullCrazy is that the Odds always have an Endless Witch introduced. Beato in Episode 1, EVA/ANGE in Episode 3, and BATTLER of course in Episode 5.
Yeah, that is interesting. TBH I was spoiled by accident on the Golden Sorcerer, and I was also spoiled on the epitaph being solved... I thought the two were related but completely forgot about it until the end.

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Originally Posted by Judoh
Other than that any character, not just Kanon in particular, being dead because they are acting out of character is rather silly. Partly because they author would have to will it for that to be true, but mostly because we don't know what is in character for anyone once they become a murderer. It's also evident that except maybe in episode 6 there aren't any scenes where Kanon is demonstrated to act out of character. He only acts out of character in theories where he is the murderer, which renders the point completely moot.
If Author Theory is true, then it basically means that the author has control over Kanon's "dead or missing" status. From the odd/even comparison, I could probably conclude that this is true:

In the odd-numbered Episodes, there is a variable X that forces Kanon to be considered dead, whether or not he actually is dead.

In the even-numbered Episodes, there is a variable Y that forces Kanon to be considered missing, even though he definitely is dead.

And the author always includes that variable in each odd/even Episode. Which is why Kanon is "dead or missing" in alternating Episodes.

And it's possible, (I don't know if I believe this, though) that the variable is whether or not Kanon is fictional.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:14   Link #10943
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Anpther interesting thing to note SeagullCrazy is that the Odds always have an Endless Witch introduced. Beato in Episode 1, EVA/ANGE (Also MARIA) in Episode 3, and BATTLER of course in Episode 5.
Ho and Sakutarou was created by ROSA.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:17   Link #10944
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@Seagull The author didn't create the character Kanon though did he? Even it's fiction it's a fiction based on an accident that really happened in the Umineko universe.

So he's (presumably) based on a person, possibly not a real person if he's the same as somebody else, but presumably if he was real person he is based off someone with a real flesh and blood body. That stays true even if how he dies is different each time.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:27   Link #10945
SeagullCrazy
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@Seagull The author didn't create the character Kanon though did he? Even it's fiction it's a fiction based on an accident that really happened in the Umineko universe.
I'm not completely confident in "Kanon is fictional" theory, but it's still a possibility that the variable is simply Kanon's existence in the story. Battler, the detective, never saw Kanon in EP2 and EP4, when he goes missing. In EP6 Erika never finds him either. So it's possible that he's fictional in even-Episodes.

There is one setback, and it's that Battler doesn't see Kanon in EP3 either. Unless I'm not remembering it correctly, it kind of breaks the pattern.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:32   Link #10946
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I'm not completely confident in "Kanon is fictional" theory, but it's still a possibility that the variable is simply Kanon's existence in the story. Battler, the detective, never saw Kanon in EP2 and EP4, when he goes missing. In EP6 Erika never finds him either. So it's possible that he's fictional in even-Episodes.

There is one setback, and it's that Battler doesn't see Kanon in EP3 either. Unless I'm not remembering it correctly, it kind of breaks the pattern.
You know if we use the variation of Shkanon where Kanon and Shannon have a duel before the game starts then the even numbered episodes would be episodes where Kanon survives. In that variation there is a "keep Shannon alive" conspiracy in even numbered episodes instead. The only other problem is that there are five people referred to in Kyrie's group.
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Old 2010-06-12, 05:40   Link #10947
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You know if we use the variation of Shkanon where Kanon and Shannon have a duel before the game starts then the even numbered episodes would be episodes where Kanon survives. In that variation there is a "keep Shannon alive" conspiracy in even numbered episodes instead. The only other problem is that there are five people referred to in Kyrie's group.
Oh, wow, I forgot about that theory.

The interesting thing is, right before Kanon goes missing in EP6, Kanon and Shannon both have a duel.

Since Shannon won that duel, I think it might actually be the opposite of what you said. In even-numbered Episodes, Shannon wins the duel.....Maybe she shoots Kanon (it would explain his chest wound every time) and hides his corpse for Reason Z. Since the detective never sees Kanon in even-numbered Episodes, there are no contradictions.

Now THAT would be interesting.
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Old 2010-06-12, 07:12   Link #10948
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Oh, wow, I forgot about that theory.

The interesting thing is, right before Kanon goes missing in EP6, Kanon and Shannon both have a duel.

Since Shannon won that duel, I think it might actually be the opposite of what you said. In even-numbered Episodes, Shannon wins the duel.....Maybe she shoots Kanon (it would explain his chest wound every time) and hides his corpse for Reason Z. Since the detective never sees Kanon in even-numbered Episodes, there are no contradictions.

Now THAT would be interesting.
In Episodes 1, 2, and 3, Kanon directly confronts Beatrice in the magic scene. Furthermore, in Episode Six, the foreshadowing introduced during Beatrice's revival heavily, heavily implies that Beatrice is Shannon. Finally, Shannon and Kanon come into conflict in Episode 6. Episode Five is not allowed to come to conclusion. Therefore, one can surmise that "Kanon confronts Shannon" is constant to all games. It's a little hazy in 4, but since all the other circumstances are the same, Kanon probably confronted Beatrice then as well, and he definitely confronted whatever represents "magic" as shown by his attempted escape and eventual Siesta-induced death.
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Old 2010-06-12, 14:21   Link #10949
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Oh, wow, I forgot about that theory.

The interesting thing is, right before Kanon goes missing in EP6, Kanon and Shannon both have a duel.

Since Shannon won that duel, I think it might actually be the opposite of what you said.

*snip*
I think I might have gotten the names mixed up.

The detective actually does see Kanon in in episode 2 though. It's in the hallway before they go into the chapel, and in the chapel before Jessica and Kanon leave.
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Old 2010-06-12, 15:28   Link #10950
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think I might have gotten the names mixed up.

The detective actually does see Kanon in in episode 2 though. It's in the hallway before they go into the chapel, and in the chapel before Jessica and Kanon leave.
Oh.

It still works if Kanon and Shannon had the duel after Jessica and Kanon left the chapel. Because Shannon was supposedly with Kinzo writing his will, but we know that's impossible. So the duel takes place immediately before Kanon's disappearance, not at the beginning of the game.
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Old 2010-06-12, 15:58   Link #10951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Oh.

It still works if Kanon and Shannon had the duel after Jessica and Kanon left the chapel. Because Shannon was supposedly with Kinzo writing his will, but we know that's impossible. So the duel takes place immediately before Kanon's disappearance, not at the beginning of the game.
So what did they have their duel in Jessica's room? Because. Kanon died in Jessica's room in ep2.
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Old 2010-06-12, 16:34   Link #10952
Judoh
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So did they have their duel in Jessica's room? Because. Kanon died in Jessica's room in ep2.
In episode 2 specifically that's the idea yup. It's also possible that Kanon requested to be placed in Jessica's room before he died though.
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Old 2010-06-12, 19:22   Link #10953
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Hmm, I've always liked this theory better than the Shkanon interpretation of Kanon's "Schrödinger's cat"-like existence, and now I think we should see how that would work into/help the closed room in EP6.

It would make Beato's introduction of Kanon as a variable almost completely irrelevant, for one thing (aside from the fact that it would imply that this is where Shannon stashed his body - probably in the closet, more specifically). Any other ideas?
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Old 2010-06-12, 23:59   Link #10954
Judoh
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Couple pronounciation questions here.. I feel like a dip asking this stuff after knowing about Umineko so long and knowing so much about it, but..

So.. how are you supposed to pronounce Virgilia? I mean the "virgi" part.

Also, should Kanon be pronounced like kah-nohn (like the anime) or cannon?

I heard Lambda is said like the animal lamb, but is Lambdadelta's supposed to be like lahm or lamb?

And one more..
Spoiler for EP5:
I beleive Kanon is pronounced "cannon" since it seems to me to be a reference to Canonization in Catholicism. In fact Kanon is a greek word.

Quote:
http://www.ourladyofvictory.org/Fath...od_noflash.htm

What is Canonization?

Simply put, canonization is the process by which an individual is elevated to sainthood by the Catholic Church.

Saints are presented to believers as role models whose lives are considered worthy of imitation.

The word "canonization" comes from the Greek word "kanon", which means a standard or measuring rod.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-13 at 00:13.
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Old 2010-06-13, 01:48   Link #10955
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...Looks like everyone's having fun
I'll just drop my theory here

Recently finished EP6, and here's my theory of "16 People Truth"

Spoiler for Number = 16:
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Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep1: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep2: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep3: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep4: Finished

Umineko no Naku Koro ni EP5: ...??

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Old 2010-06-13, 02:08   Link #10956
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Nadeor View Post
...Looks like everyone's having fun
I'll just drop my theory here

Recently finished EP6, and here's my theory of "16 People Truth"

Spoiler for Number = 16:
I've thought of the chessboard analogy too, and I'm sure others have.
But since I didn't want to accept Shkanon I found a way around it. Sort of.

You disregarded the witch's side. If you take out Kinzo and Maria from the original 18 and add them to the witch's side, you get 16 pieces for the human side. And 16 for the witch's side:
Spoiler for witch's side:


This wasn't really meant to deny your theory, but it's a way to get around it without using Shkanon.
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Old 2010-06-13, 02:42   Link #10957
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Nadeor View Post
...Looks like everyone's having fun
I'll just drop my theory here

Recently finished EP6, and here's my theory of "16 People Truth"

Spoiler for Number = 16:
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-06-13, 03:06   Link #10958
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Spoiler:
It works nicely if the witch is the only person on the witch's side of the board.
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-06-13, 03:09   Link #10959
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It works nicely if the witch is the only person on the witch's side of the board.
Either way, it amounts to seventeen people on Rokken Island, which is the point. Assuming Erika has been proven an illusion, which I'd say is fairly likely, that leaves no room for Shkanon.

Unless Pony theory makes a comeback. ...that would not be a good thing.
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Old 2010-06-13, 04:04   Link #10960
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Unless Pony theory makes a comeback. ...that would not be a good thing.
Pony theory, as much as it goes against all logic and red, has one thing going for it -- it follows plot structure. Narratively, a Beatrice that Battler made his promise to in the past makes perfect sense, this is what you would expect from a romance novel, it's How These Things Work. Which is why this character not existing on the board creates such an unpleasant void. Filling this void with some other character takes something brilliant enough (in the context of romance novel plot) to make you forget that this character was something else originally.

I'm afraid that both Shannon's and Jessica's and even Kanon's fanon interpretations ran very far away from letting them do anything of the sort long ago.
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