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Old 2010-06-13, 16:46   Link #10981
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Except it's very clear that nobody really cares whether he marries Shannon or not. Rudolf, for example, had to of overhear George practicing in EP 2 but its pretty obvious he didn't say anything to anyone. Hideyoshi also seems to be okay with it when he found out in EP 1, while Eva was saying how she was glad Shannon was dead.

In EP 6 George clearly targeted Eva because he knew she would get in the way of his marriage to Shannon. I swear, this whole forbidden love stuff is way too overdone for George and Shannon.

Except he didn't target Eva except in a fantasy scene. Eva was actually targeted by Erika for a different reason.

If Georges goal was just to marry Shannon then I agree, there would be no reason. But what happened was that we got some kind of hint from a fantasy scene that he does kill family members. Ep3 and the one you mentioned ep6. Now the fantasy reason is probably the lie, so what remains is the possibility that his goal is not exactly as he's stated.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:11   Link #10982
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Except it's very clear that nobody really cares whether he marries Shannon or not. Rudolf, for example, had to of overhear George practicing in EP 2 but its pretty obvious he didn't say anything to anyone. Hideyoshi also seems to be okay with it when he found out in EP 1, while Eva was saying how she was glad Shannon was dead.
I don't know why you and others keep suggesting this. I mean it's possible Rudolf just came in and didn't overhear him. I haven't seen anything suggesting anyone other than Jessica knows about it until Battler figures it out. If Eva is the only person out of the loop I'm going to be very disappointed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I couldn't disagree more. It'd be a massive disappointment if the culprit WASN'T one of Battler's immediate family members, given all the time Beatrice has spent trying to convince him of that.
I think Erika proves that a non related culprit is possible too. A person who has no emotional ties to the Ushiromiya family would be able to kill them without any grief. Like Erika.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:13   Link #10983
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I have never found Christie mysteries difficult to figure out, purely using the "narrative" method.
I find this difficult to believe, but, whatever. I understand what you're getting at.

Thanks to you, actually, I've decided to give the Pony Theory some thought, and... it works. It actually works.

Ryukishi spent his last interview talking about a "key" that would "unlock" all the closed rooms, and... what if the Pony Theory is it? That is, that Beatrice is in fact a physical existence on the island separate from anyone else? What if BOTH Shkanon and Erika-Doesn't-Exist are true? That leaves a slot open for another person, doesn't it? Sure, it's the Mysterious Person X all over again, but now it's the Mysterious Person Beatrice, which at least has some precedent.

Furthermore, it would explain something that's been bothering me for quite some time now. Assume Shkanon is true. Let's also assume that all the victims of Ep1's first twilight are, in fact, dead. How else do you explain the person Battler heard exit the boiler room during Ep1's fourth and fifth twilights? Mysterious Person Beatrice ties that up nicely.

With the Pony Theory, also, we can take the challenge letters completely at FACE VALUE. We can take everything attributed to Beatrice at face value. The theory suddenly clears up things that we always assumed were mysteries.

It's like the ultimate misdirection.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:21   Link #10984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
*snip*
I believe this red. The sin is not between Battler and Beatrice Applies to both a Meta Beato and a Beato if there is one on the board.

And about Battler hearing someone. That doesn't mean anything... He was under complete stress and panic, he didn't want someone he knew to be the culpirt, so his brain subconsciously probably created this sound for him. If I remember right he is the only one who hears it.

And I for one never liked this 'Person X' garabage, even if they are named Beatrice..
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:22   Link #10985
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We also have Kawabata's pow.

-He's been bringing stuff to the "rear port" for 20 years, and it was stuff meant for a young lady, which he was never allowed to see.
-He's been doing that in all secrecy, he was even paid to keep his mouth shout and somewhat even threatened not to open it by Genji.
Mind you, that's 50-60s and a refined family is involved. There is nothing really unusual about not letting the outside hired help see their masters. There may also be other very good reasons not to let Kawabata in, for example, if it's the identity of the lady that had to be protected, and not the lady herself needed to be kept in total isolation.

Oh, by the way. Did you notice that the pilot of the airplane that flies the Ushiromiyas to Niijima in the morning is also one "Captain Kawabata"?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-The conversation between Beato and Kinzo in 1967 we have seen has been confirmed to be true in red.

I think there are enough hints to claim that the probability that this Beatrice didn't exist or wasn't secluded are below 5%.
Mind you, I'm not suggesting that Beatrice-2 did not exist, or wasn't secluded. I am merely stating that we cannot use her as an example of a seriously eccentric action by Kinzo, or even very extraordinary. Sure, it would fit well with the total image of Kinzo, the eccentric, unusual, extraordinary man, but I am doubting that image itself -- all we have to support it are things that support it only if it's eccentric and extraordinary already.

In short, every instance of "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo." supports the image of a Kinzo that you wouldn't put anything past -- but does not actually build it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
- being a fanatic of occultism.
- claiming that the witch was real to the point of forcing the servants to believe in it (or pretend to).
- founding an orphanage where children are raised with the prospect of becoming underaged servants as their highest aspiration. They are even stripped of their original name.
- Closing himself into a study for several years, without seeing almost anyone.
Point by point.
  • Being a 'fanatic of occultism' is very relative. We see no mention of Kinzo actually performing any magic ritual with the exception of Beatrice resurrection, which is not only dissimilar to more or less any magical tradition I have heard of, but is also performed while Kinzo is dead. There is nothing in his study to suggest he actually practiced magic in any fashion, only books about magic. Both an occultist and a cultural anthropologist could have a study full of books about magic, including genuine medieval texts.
  • Founding an orphanage to prepare servants is not actually unusual if you perceive the democratization of Japan as a threat to your way of life, which involves highly trained, effective servants. It's actually a very sound decision. The 'stripping' of the original name is actually also a reasonable practice, because this way, abruptly switching gears and choosing a radically different future career path is not a problem for orphanage graduates -- their entire servant career is linked to a pseudonym they can just stop using and dissociate themselves from.
  • Closing yourself into a study for several years is not unusual either -- if you have trouble walking or suffer from progressing agoraphobia.

So we're mostly left with claiming that the witch is real and not wanting to see anyone.

Well, these are hardly traits of a daring eccentric who can randomly wake up in the night and go for a walk by jumping out of the window. They're the traits of a disturbed and suffering man which actually make one less daring. The image of the super-Kinzo for whom nothing is unthinkable doesn't fit with this.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:23   Link #10986
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The existence of a real Beatrice does fit with the scenario of both shkannon and ghosterika being true. And in that case Erikatrice would become the most logic assumption.

This option would also save 2 out of the 3 couples, instead of only 1 with classic shkannon theory.

The only problem I see with this is that according the Zepar and Furfur, Beato, Shannon and Kanon are exactly in the same situation.

We know that what Zepar and Furfur said is of extreme importance, so if the correct interpretation is the one supposed by shkannon theorists, then Beatrice should fit in that as well.

If the fact that only one among the 3 couples can succeed is because shannon and kanon are the same person, so even Beatrice should be another personality of the same person. Else it should be possible for Beato to still crown her love dream regardless of Kanon or Shannon winning the test.


@Oliver

I do not relate with your definition of "eccentric". You seem to imply that eccentric can only be defined someone who does things not done by anyone else. That's not the common definition. Eccentric is whoever does things blatantly against the norm, which includes a very large group of people if we search through the whole world.

Being fanatic of occultism is, for example, not exceptionally rare, but it is eccentric. By the way Oliver "being a fanatic of occultism" does not imply being a practitioner of occultism anymore than being a fanatic of movies involves being an actor or a director.
Yet again I do not relate with your definitions.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:27   Link #10987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The existence of a real Beatrice does fit with the scenario of both shkannon and ghosterika being true. And in that case Erikatrice would become the most logic assumption.

This option would also save 2 out of the 3 couples, instead of only 1 with classic shkannon theory.

The only problem I see with this is that according the Zepar and Furfur, Beato, Shannon and Kanon are exactly in the same situation.

We know that what Zepar and Furfur said is of extreme importance, so if the correct interpretation is the one supposed by shkannon theorists, then Beatrice should fit in that as well.

If the fact that only one among the 3 couples can succeed is because shannon and kanon are the same person, so even Beatrice should be another personality of the same person. Else it should be possible for Beato to still crown her love dream regardless of Kanon or Shannon winning the test.
Really I was reading ep6 and thinking "WHAT" why if one wins the others remain alone forever. "WHY" Shankannontrice makes the most sense why only one can win and the others would lose forever. Also Shakannon also explains why Kanon and Shannon are both going to be quiting on the same day. It also explains why Kanon is so insistant that only him work on the day of the confrence in ep5.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:31   Link #10988
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Really I was reading ep6 and thinking "WHAT" why if one wins the others remain alone forever. "WHY" Shankannontrice makes the most sense why only one can win and the others would lose forever. Also Shakannon also explains why Kanon and Shannon are both going to be quiting on the same day. It also explains why Kanon is so insistant that only him work on the day of the confrence in ep5.

The idea that "Shannon is Beatrice and plans to bomb the family if Battler does not remember his sin or someone stops her, and Kanon is trying to stop this plan to get his sister back" explains this love duel equally well! Neither can live while the other survives, as neither will give in!
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:34   Link #10989
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Except it's very clear that nobody really cares whether he marries Shannon or not. Rudolf, for example, had to of overhear George practicing in EP 2 but its pretty obvious he didn't say anything to anyone. Hideyoshi also seems to be okay with it when he found out in EP 1, while Eva was saying how she was glad Shannon was dead.

In EP 6 George clearly targeted Eva because he knew she would get in the way of his marriage to Shannon. I swear, this whole forbidden love stuff is way too overdone for George and Shannon.
George actually cannot do anything regarding marriage to Shannon without Hideyoshi's direct support or a declaration of strict neutrality in whatever conflict this may spark with Eva.

Hideyoshi is George's employer. This is Japan of 1986, where employment is still seen as 'for life' in most industries, and were Hideyoshi to oppose George's desire to marry Shannon, he can make him essentially unemployable by anyone else with one flick of a pen. George is completely at Hideyoshi's mercy in that and has precious little legal recourse against such treatment. Sure, he can fight his mother, he can tell the rest of the family to go die in a fire, but his father is the one person that has George in his power...

While Hideyoshi and Eva are alive, that is. If they mysteriously die, George inherits Hideyoshi's company and this weakness vanishes. So either George has Hideyoshi's approval or he has to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi -- but everyone else's opinion doesn't matter at all.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:37   Link #10990
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No Shiro Kaisen, this doesn't work as well.

Shannon wants George
Beatrice wants Battler
Kanon wants Jessica


There is no Shannon and Battler in the love test. Therefore you just need to get beatrice out of the picture to have both Shannon and Kanon happy.

But that's not what happens, because at a certain point Beatrice loses by default, she's already out of the game, and yet Shannon and Kanon still need to fight.

also your theory does not explain why Zepar and Furur claim that Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon are "less than human". and why the love test will make them "whole" so that they can be allowed to love.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:45   Link #10991
Marion
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I don't know why you and others keep suggesting this. I mean it's possible Rudolf just came in and didn't overhear him. I haven't seen anything suggesting anyone other than Jessica knows about it until Battler figures it out. If Eva is the only person out of the loop I'm going to be very disappointed.
The two of them were in the bathroom alone. George was saying Shannon's name a few times while practicing. Rudolf has to be deaf if he didn't overhear George in such an empty bathroom with little to no noise. Rudolf was already inside when George came in as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
George actually cannot do anything regarding marriage to Shannon without Hideyoshi's direct support or a declaration of strict neutrality in whatever conflict this may spark with Eva.

Hideyoshi is George's employer. This is Japan of 1986, where employment is still seen as 'for life' in most industries, and were Hideyoshi to oppose George's desire to marry Shannon, he can make him essentially unemployable by anyone else with one flick of a pen. George is completely at Hideyoshi's mercy in that and has precious little legal recourse against such treatment. Sure, he can fight his mother, he can tell the rest of the family to go die in a fire, but his father is the one person that has George in his power...

While Hideyoshi and Eva are alive, that is. If they mysteriously die, George inherits Hideyoshi's company and this weakness vanishes. So either George has Hideyoshi's approval or he has to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi -- but everyone else's opinion doesn't matter at all.
Except Hideyoshi is not Eva. Hideyoshi just wants to have a big family and grandchildren. I doubt he's going to screw over the son he loves just because he doesn't approve of Shannon. Eva is clearly a different story - she's pretty much obsessed with George's success and running his life.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:46   Link #10992
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And doesn't Zepar and Furfur say that if they don't complete the love trial their love can't exist.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:47   Link #10993
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No Shiro Kaisen, this doesn't work as well.

Shannon wants George
Beatrice wants Battler
Kanon wants Jessica


There is no Shannon and Battler in the love test. Therefore you just need to get beatrice out of the picture to have both Shannon and Kanon happy.

But that's not what happens, because at a certain point Beatrice loses by default, she's already out of the game, and yet Shannon and Kanon still need to fight.

Beatrice is a personality created by Shannon and is in love with Battler. Shannon remains in love with George. However, unlike the bullcrap DID perpetuated by Shkanon fans, a personality cannot be "killed." So for Kanon to be happy, he must kill his sister. When Battler is out of the picture, when he is locked in his closed room, Beatrice is unable to fulfill her objective of causing Battler to remember his sin. She plans to set off the bomb instead. Kanon cannot let this happen, because he must save his lovely ojou-sama. Sayo has to try and eliminate this Beatrice personality somehow, and she assumes that since it is after Battler, she would have to eliminate Battler to get rid of it.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:52   Link #10994
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I find this difficult to believe, but, whatever. I understand what you're getting at.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that Christie's mysteries are not well crafted and interesting, I'm just saying that it's usually not hard to figure out the end result of ANY mystery, especially if they used to make up the bulk of your reading diet for more than a decade. (Mysteries were some of the first types of books I read while I was growing up, and I've literally read hundreds of different series spanning all ages. Eventually you start to notice patterns.)

The weakness in looking at it from a narrative perspective is that you can pinpoint WHO nearly all the time, WHY some of the time, but almost never HOW, unless you've found a similar trick in another mystery you've read. Therefore I can put forth all I want that I think Beato is an entity of some sort with no firm ties to Shannon/Kanon/Jessica, but if I can't explain how the murders are committed or why, most people won't pay me much mind. Understandably.

Because there are problems with it.

But there are also major problems as put forth with the ShaKanonTrice theory that makes it even unlikely to me.

Spoiler for ep6:


I think the only way I could accept the three of them being the same is if it was "Beato" playing at being both of them. Her not being a part of them, but them being a part of her.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:52   Link #10995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Beatrice is a personality created by Shannon and is in love with Battler. Shannon remains in love with George. However, unlike the bullcrap DID perpetuated by Shkanon fans, a personality cannot be "killed." So for Kanon to be happy, he must kill his sister. When Battler is out of the picture, when he is locked in his closed room, Beatrice is unable to fulfill her objective of causing Battler to remember his sin. She plans to set off the bomb instead. Kanon cannot let this happen, because he must save his lovely ojou-sama. Sayo has to try and eliminate this Beatrice personality somehow, and she assumes that since it is after Battler, she would have to eliminate Battler to get rid of it.
That makes almost no sense and you just repeated what you said was bullcrap. And you do realize there has never been a mention of Kanon being alive, right. If he is just a persona then he was never alive to begin with, and thus can be dead. And you can kill an imaginary friend, even if they never were alive to begin with. And there are more explainations for Shakannon then Shannon has DID.
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Old 2010-06-13, 17:59   Link #10996
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That makes almost no sense and you just repeated what you said was bullcrap. And you do realize there has never been a mention of Kanon being alive, right. If he is just a persona then he was never alive to begin with, and thus can be dead. And you can kill an imaginary friend, even if they never were alive to begin with. And there are more explainations for Shakannon then Shannon has DID.
Yeah, I dunno where some of that came from, I was pretty distracted when I wrote that. I'll think about it and post a better explanation later.

The root remains the same, though. Episode 6 makes it very clear that Beatrice was not a person and was created by someone. Beato's flashback as she realizes the truth of the game makes this very clear. Beatrice is the creation of somebody who is in love with Battler. It can't be Jessica, because Jessica already has "that blonde hair he likes." It can't be any of the moms, because that's silly. No one else would have been on the island both times. Process of elimination says "Shannon."

And what do you mean, "no mention of Kanon being alive?"

And I didn't say Sayo actually COULD kill Beato, just that she thought she could. There's a difference, a very key difference. If you had a personality in your head you realized was trying to bomb your lover to smithereens, you'd try to get rid of them too. But you wouldn't wanna tell your lover you were bat**** crazy, because that would be a bad idea.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:00   Link #10997
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Beatrice is a personality created by Shannon and is in love with Battler. Shannon remains in love with George. However, unlike the bullcrap DID perpetuated by Shkanon fans, a personality cannot be "killed." So for Kanon to be happy, he must kill his sister. When Battler is out of the picture, when he is locked in his closed room, Beatrice is unable to fulfill her objective of causing Battler to remember his sin. She plans to set off the bomb instead. Kanon cannot let this happen, because he must save his lovely ojou-sama. Sayo has to try and eliminate this Beatrice personality somehow, and she assumes that since it is after Battler, she would have to eliminate Battler to get rid of it.
This is contradictory. If a personality cannot be "suppressed" then Shannon and Beatrice are forever bound to coexist. Which is not what Zepar and Furfur say.

Your theory doesn't really has any advantage on shkanon because you still accept the existence of two personalities inside a single body.

Also there are other ways to stop someone from committing a massacre. Killing is not certainly a necessity.

and I repeat again:

Quote:
also your theory does not explain why Zepar and Furur claim that Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon are "less than human". and why the love test will make them "whole" so that they can be allowed to love.
also

when Shannon wins it is said that "the souls are gathering into Shannon".
and as a consequence Kanon and Beatrice are both vanishings.

P.S:
There's no way the unfortunate incident was caused by a bomb!
P.P.S: Battler says to Beatrice I will kill you! Therfore if you accept Shannontrice you either accept that personalities can be killed or you need to think that Battler is going to kill Shannon.


@musouka
If Beatrice doesn't join the game she simply loses by default as the part I quoted clearly show.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:01   Link #10998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post

But there are also major problems as put forth with the ShaKanonTrice theory that makes it even unlikely to me.

Spoiler for ep6:
Shannon and Kanon were made before Beatrice, this explains why Beatrice enters later, since she was created later. Beatrice was created to take away Shannon's love for Battler. But she didn't want to crush her first love completely so she locked it away in a imaginary friend of sorts. With Battler dead, Beatrice's role would be gone, thus she wouldn't need to exist anymore. Shannon might consider Beatrice an enemy because she is the existance of her past love for Battler, and that can threaten her new love for George.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:08   Link #10999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
And what do you mean, "no mention of Kanon being alive?"

And I didn't say Sayo actually COULD kill Beato, just that she thought she could. There's a difference, a very key difference. If you had a personality in your head you realized was trying to bomb your lover to smithereens, you'd try to get rid of them too. But you wouldn't wanna tell your lover you were bat**** crazy, because that would be a bad idea.
There is never a solid 100% showing that Kanon is alive, and is an actual person. The all red text about Kanon normally say he is dead, none ever say he is alive.

And you can kill a personality. With therapy you can remove your other personality if you have DID which is can be considered 'killing' that personality. But since I don't think Shannon is THAT mentally crazy, I don't think she has DID, which makes things even easier to explain Shakannon

(Sorry about the double post btw)
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:14   Link #11000
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is contradictory. If a personality cannot be "suppressed" then Shannon and Beatrice are forever bound to coexist. Which is not what Zepar and Furfur say.

Your theory doesn't really has any advantage on shkanon because you still accept the existence of two personalities inside a single body.

Also there are other ways to stop someone from committing a massacre. Killing is not certainly a necessity.

and I repeat again:



also

when Shannon wins it is said that "the souls are gathering into Shannon".
and as a consequence Kanon and Beatrice are both vanishings.

P.S:
There's no way the unfortunate incident was caused by a bomb!
P.P.S: Battler says to Beatrice I will kill you! Therfore if you accept Shannontrice you either accept that personalities can be killed or you need to think that Battler is going to kill Shannon.


@musouka
If Beatrice doesn't join the game she simply loses by default as the part I quoted clearly show.

Like I said, I messed up the specifics, but the core facts are there. I'm going to rework it later.

But one thing:

Shannontrice has an advantage over Shkanontrice because it doesn't necessitate the unbelievably unrealistic conspiracy in which two servants are one maid, nor does it require the absurdity of "switching personalities" in a room to dodge red text.

Quote:
There is never a solid 100% showing that Kanon is alive, and is an actual person. The all red text about Kanon normally say he is dead, none ever say he is alive.

And you can kill a personality. With therapy you can remove your other personality if you have DID which is can be considered 'killing' that personality. But since I don't think Shannon is THAT mentally crazy, I don't think she has DID, which makes things even easier to explain Shakannon
Kanon interacts with Jessica. Therefore, he is alive. Red isn't the only thing you can trust.
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