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Old 2010-06-13, 18:19   Link #11001
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I believe this red. The sin is not between Battler and Beatrice Applies to both a Meta Beato and a Beato if there is one on the board.
There are two Battlers and probably two Beatrices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
And about Battler hearing someone. That doesn't mean anything... He was under complete stress and panic, he didn't want someone he knew to be the culpirt, so his brain subconsciously probably created this sound for him. If I remember right he is the only one who hears it.
Detective perspective. While I think he can be FOOLED, I don't think he can exactly see or hear thing that aren't there as long as he is the detective.

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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
And I for one never liked this 'Person X' garabage, even if they are named Beatrice..
I don't really like it either, but it DOES destroy the closed rooms, which is what the "key" is supposed to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
While Hideyoshi and Eva are alive, that is. If they mysteriously die, George inherits Hideyoshi's company and this weakness vanishes. So either George has Hideyoshi's approval or he has to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi -- but everyone else's opinion doesn't matter at all.
And because Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths would make George look suspicious, he might see the need to pull an ABC Murders... which would necessitate everyone's death.

Why, then, does he leave Battler alive until the end, though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that Christie's mysteries are not well crafted and interesting, I'm just saying that it's usually not hard to figure out the end result of ANY mystery, especially if they used to make up the bulk of your reading diet for more than a decade. (Mysteries were some of the first types of books I read while I was growing up, and I've literally read hundreds of different series spanning all ages. Eventually you start to notice patterns.)
Ah, no, no, that's fine. I'm not offended or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Kanon interacts with Jessica. Therefore, he is alive. Red isn't the only thing you can trust.
Those scenes are, in the Shkanon theory, completely fake. It's even been said, in red, that you can't trust anything that's not in red.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:20   Link #11002
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

Those scenes are, in the Shkanon theory, completely fake. It's even been said, in red, that you can't trust anything that's not in red.
But at the same time, "without love, it cannot be seen." And Featherine outright praises Ange for "paying attention not only to the red, but to the black as well."
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:21   Link #11003
musouka
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@musouka
If Beatrice doesn't join the game she simply loses by default as the part I quoted clearly show.
She can't continue the game because Battler isn't there. Yes, she'll lose by default, but that changes the perception of the game to "three personalities dueling it out" to "three couples dueling it out." Unless you are trying to say that all six people are only one person, then it doesn't make sense.

(In other words, I agree with you.)
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:25   Link #11004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
But at the same time, "without love, it cannot be seen." And Featherine outright praises Ange for "paying attention not only to the red, but to the black as well."
I believe that scene is true. There is nothing that says that 'Kanon' went with Jessica. We just know that someone did, possibly pretending to be Kanon.

Quote:
Detective perspective. While I think he can be FOOLED, I don't think he can exactly see or hear thing that aren't there as long as he is the detective.
He can be fooled, there is nothing that says the detective can't think they heard a noise that isn't there.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:30   Link #11005
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
He can be fooled, there is nothing that says the detective can't think they heard a noise that isn't there.
I seem to remember like two pages of text explaining why the detective can't 'lie' about things like that, but it isn't in red, which kind of invalidates my argument if I'm to not be a hypocrite.

As I recall, none of the rules about the detective or the detective's perspective are ever in red, actually.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:30   Link #11006
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I believe that scene is true. There is nothing that says that 'Kanon' went with Jessica. We just know that someone did, possibly pretending to be Kanon.
In other words, "ShKanon has the entire island fooled into believing there are two people, who are actually just one maid. Natsuhi has never seen them together, despite being the one who handles the servant schedules. Jessica never noticed that the "Kanon" that works on the island is the same person as her best friend, and that she didn't notice the person who came to her school festival was someone else pretending."


...under Shkanon, Jessica is the dumbest character ever, and Natsuhi just doesn't care that she's paying two servants' wages to one person. Because Natsuhi would HAVE to know about Shkanon if it were true.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:41   Link #11007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
In other words, "ShKanon has the entire island fooled into believing there are two people, who are actually just one maid. Natsuhi has never seen them together, despite being the one who handles the servant schedules. Jessica never noticed that the "Kanon" that works on the island is the same person as her best friend, and that she didn't notice the person who came to her school festival was someone else pretending."


...under Shkanon, Jessica is the dumbest character ever, and Natsuhi just doesn't care that she's paying two servants' wages to one person. Because Natsuhi would HAVE to know about Shkanon if it were true.
No Natsuhi doesn't have to know. Because it sounds like more or less Genji handles the schedules most of the time. And if I remember right only 2 or so servents are on the island at the same time. If Genji had some control over the schedule he could make it so Kanon and Shannon normally never work on the same day. And also I noticed in ep2, Genji says he is going to help Shannon and Kanon with their work, so they won't have to do as much. I don't see a reason why, it isn't like they are doing a ton, if they are 2 people. Jessica can be fooled, remember Kanon stayed in the corner during her song.

Quote:
I seem to remember like two pages of text explaining why the detective can't 'lie' about things like that, but it isn't in red, which kind of invalidates my argument if I'm to not be a hypocrite.

As I recall, none of the rules about the detective or the detective's perspective are ever in red, actually.
It just seems fishy to me that ONLY Battler hears this sound. And I've thought of a possibity for the sound to exist and still have all the alive people in the room, I think, I have to recheck something.

Ok this is interesting to note, that sound doesn't exist in the manga. Natsuhi shouts "Come out" and points her gun. The flashlight gets pointed at the door, which is partly open. Battler assumes that the killer escaped through there and rushes out.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:46   Link #11008
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
It just seems fishy to me that ONLY Battler hears this sound.
Even if Battler is a horrible judge of character, he does tend to notice things others do not. That's why he's the detective.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:47   Link #11009
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
No Natsuhi doesn't have to know. Because it sounds like more or less Genji handles the schedules most of the time. And if I remember right only 2 or so servents are on the island at the same time. If Genji had some control over the schedule he could make it so Kanon and Shannon normally never work on the same day. And also I noticed in ep2, Genji says he is going to help Shannon and Kanon with their work, so they won't have to do as much. I don't see a reason why, it isn't like they are doing a ton, if they are 2 people. Jessica can be fooled, remember Kanon stayed in the corner during her song.
Natsuhi is stated to have control over the servants' schedules.

And I'm not referring to Jessica at the school so much as Jessica in general. I cannot accept a scenario where Jessica goes several years without realizing that Kanon isn't real, despite spending so much time with both of them. That's completely unbelievable.
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:48   Link #11010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Even if Battler is a horrible judge of character, he does tend to notice things others do not. That's why he's the detective.
Ok there goes, I need to recheck something in the VN so it might be messed up but.

Kanon, or someone else throws a small stone at the door. It makes a plunk noise as it hits the metal and makes it sound like the door was opened.

Quote:
And I'm not referring to Jessica at the school so much as Jessica in general. I cannot accept a scenario where Jessica goes several years without realizing that Kanon isn't real, despite spending so much time with both of them. That's completely unbelievable.
We have no idea how much time Jessica actually spent with Kanon. She might have not spent much more than we are shown even.

Quote:
Natsuhi is stated to have control over the servants' schedules.
If you don't mind me asking, when was this stated?
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Old 2010-06-13, 18:58   Link #11011
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post

If you don't mind me asking, when was this stated?
I don't have the exact quote right now, but in Episode 1 and in Episode 6. I'm busy, in fact I'm gonna have to leave the argument right now because I've been procrastinating on work, but I'll post it when I find it.
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Old 2010-06-13, 19:36   Link #11012
Renall
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Regarding, well, anyone as the culprit, we don't have to believe the motives we're shown in scenes of dubious credibility. For instance George, or Shannon, or Hideyoshi, or Kanon, or Gohda for crying out loud could have the desire to kill the family, but we could be shown the wrong motive.

To use George as an example because I'm still suspicious of him, the whole "wants to marry Shannon at all costs" thing could be the smokescreen for this true Motive X. Battler almost never sees any evidence of any kind that George and Shannon are actually as close as the games suggest. The fakey nature of their romance and the extra TIPS might even suggest this really is a smokescreen motive, though we'd have to explain why to get around all the effort devoted to it and ep6.

Of course we could see the relationship as one-sided. The weight of the text puts it one-sided on Shannon's part, since George's motivations tend to make him a more sinister presence. I'm not totally sure of it one way or the other though. It's certainly most probable that they're sincere.

I just think George or Jessica would make a more obvious "unexpected" mastermind. Their motives are much harder to read than the motives of Kanon and Shannon. Assuming the existence of a romance doesn't mean it means the same thing to both parties. Kanon and Jessica sort of already have this dynamic (what Jessica thinks of it is different from what Kanon thinks), which makes me think it's more sincere than Shannon and George.
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Old 2010-06-13, 20:57   Link #11013
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Can someone answer my question?

I'm assuming that, in every single kakera, Krauss or Natsuhi have control over the work schedule of the servants. However, the schedule in EP1 changed by Krauss's order. Before that, however, what is the exact schedule? Is it the same as the EP5 schedule?
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Old 2010-06-13, 21:46   Link #11014
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And because Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths would make George look suspicious, he might see the need to pull an ABC Murders... which would necessitate everyone's death.

Why, then, does he leave Battler alive until the end, though?
Well, for example...
Because Battler is actually Krauss' son and is therefore the real heir to Ushiromiya fortune. Battler is not aware of it, but once this is widely known, and George would ensure it was, Battler has an absolutely perfect motive for the newspapers, and can be the natural scapegoat for George.

Mind you, I am thinking that Hideyoshi actually supporting George is far, far more likely than George actually planning to murder his parents because of being put into an unwinnable situation, as clues to Hideyoshi supporting George in his marital plans are present several times in detective perspective. I'm just saying that George's motive (or lack thereof) to perform ABC murders directly depends on Hideyoshi's position regarding that marriage -- if George really wants to marry Shannon, that is.
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Old 2010-06-13, 22:15   Link #11015
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
Of course we could see the relationship as one-sided. The weight of the text puts it one-sided on Shannon's part, since George's motivations tend to make him a more sinister presence. I'm not totally sure of it one way or the other though. It's certainly most probable that they're sincere.
While rereading EP2, I found something that makes George even more suspicious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George's narration

When I was in elementary school, I was always the kid that got bullied.
When everyone teased me, I grew nervous and speechless, to the delight of the bullies.

Back then, I wondered why everyone teased me.
But now, teasing Shannon like this, I understand why.
This is so much fun.

I can play with her emotions however I please, ...and I can have them all to myself.
Right now, I can't think of any higher pleasure.


That's why I have to treat her lightly.
I don't want her to get embarrassed and think bad of me.
That's why I decided to end this topic here and now.
I didn't want to be too obstinate.
Spoiler for context:
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Old 2010-06-13, 22:20   Link #11016
Judoh
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Can someone answer my question?

I'm assuming that, in every single kakera, Krauss or Natsuhi have control over the work schedule of the servants. However, the schedule in EP1 changed by Krauss's order. Before that, however, what is the exact schedule? Is it the same as the EP5 schedule?
The episode 5 schedule is never shown to us just like it's not shown to us in episodes 2 and 4. The schedules are switched to the guesthouse in episode 3 though so the sudden schedule change may be a constant event throughout all the episodes.

BTW Natsuhi seems to have control of the schedules in episode 5. She was the one who decided that she wanted both Shannon and Kanon on duty. Before Chiru everything was said to be done by Krauss, Krauss, Krauss, and sometimes Genji.

EDIT: The schedule change is basically a switch between who works in the mansion and the guesthouse. IIRC Shannon, Kanon, and Genji were in the guesthouse after the schedule change and Kumasawa and Gohda were in the mansion.


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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
there has never been a mention of Kanon being alive, right. If he is just a persona then he was never alive to begin with, and thus can be dead.
Well most people would say it's common sense that you have to be a living person to begin with to die. The only time a red has been used to say someone is alive is in EVA's reds because she wants to trap Battler. And saying it's impossible for a human to kill him is basically saying he's alive anyway.

using your logic I can say.

George has never been proclaimed to be dead until the end of any of the games. Since he is not proclaimed to be dead until that time I can assume he is alive to be a murderer until the end in all games.

What now?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-13 at 22:39.
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Old 2010-06-13, 22:32   Link #11017
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, for example...
Because Battler is actually Krauss' son and is therefore the real heir to Ushiromiya fortune. Battler is not aware of it, but once this is widely known, and George would ensure it was, Battler has an absolutely perfect motive for the newspapers, and can be the natural scapegoat for George.
That does work. Didn't think of that one.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Mind you, I am thinking that Hideyoshi actually supporting George is far, far more likely than George actually planning to murder his parents because of being put into an unwinnable situation, as clues to Hideyoshi supporting George in his marital plans are present several times in detective perspective.
I wouldn't say Hideyoshi supports George's plans so much as he accepts them. He still may be forced to disown George for the sake of appearances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
This was during the prologue of EP2. Out of context it really makes George look really manipulative, doesn't it?
It makes him sound manipulative even when in context.
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Old 2010-06-14, 00:10   Link #11018
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, for example...
Because Battler is actually Krauss' son and is therefore the real heir to Ushiromiya fortune. Battler is not aware of it, but once this is widely known, and George would ensure it was, Battler has an absolutely perfect motive for the newspapers, and can be the natural scapegoat for George.

Mind you, I am thinking that Hideyoshi actually supporting George is far, far more likely than George actually planning to murder his parents because of being put into an unwinnable situation, as clues to Hideyoshi supporting George in his marital plans are present several times in detective perspective. I'm just saying that George's motive (or lack thereof) to perform ABC murders directly depends on Hideyoshi's position regarding that marriage -- if George really wants to marry Shannon, that is.
My guess is that Hideyoshi and George have agreed to a certain plan of action regarding George's situation and Hideyoshi's situation with respect to money. However, I think George has a secondary plan that may involve the betrayal of even Hideyoshi.

This is just from the fact that Hideyoshi also survives the 1st twilight a lot and is free to move afterwards but does seem to get targeted soon after.


Everyone to the Accusing Parlor!

Anyways, we are searching for the culprit but as someone said earlier there's possibly two culprits we're looking for, right? The First Twilight Betrayer (who probably goes on to kill more people) and the 10th Twilight Bomber. If George is indeed suspicious, I'd say he was more of a First Twilight Betrayer, that is he is trying to act within the situation and committing murders. I wouldn't bet that he was a 10th Twilight Bomber though since whoever that is seems intent on blowing themselves up too...

So who can we point the accusing finger at for that one?
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Old 2010-06-14, 00:28   Link #11019
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Everyone to the Accusing Parlor!
Spoiler for Dr. Terumasa Zoidberg:
Quote:
Anyways, we are searching for the culprit but as someone said earlier there's possibly two culprits we're looking for, right? The First Twilight Betrayer (who probably goes on to kill more people) and the 10th Twilight Bomber. If George is indeed suspicious, I'd say he was more of a First Twilight Betrayer, that is he is trying to act within the situation and committing murders. I wouldn't bet that he was a 10th Twilight Bomber though since whoever that is seems intent on blowing themselves up too...

So who can we point the accusing finger at for that one?
Well, it's gotta be someone who expects and desires that everyone die (at least under certain conditions). So it probably isn't someone who actually plans on surviving. People like George don't seem to fit that.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-06-14, 00:39   Link #11020
Judoh
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I can't suspect anyone on the island for placing the bomb! I just can't...!

There are a few off island suspects that I can think of though.
  • Witch Hunt (They have the most to gain from it by making it seem like a witch did it)
  • Sumaderas (The yakuzas did it would be an antithesis to Higurashi. Nobody would expect it. I kind of suspect the Beatrice who gave him the gold was a Sumadera anyway)
  • GHQ (The people who gave Kinzo the island in the first place. Since Kinzo is dead his family doesn't need it anymore. And they were kind of angry when he just sort of took it for himself.)
  • Asumu (don't underestimate a woman scorned)
  • Krauss's bank buddies (let's just say they have an unorthodox method of collecting interest...)
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