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Old 2010-06-14, 19:03   Link #11041
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
The reason it only applies to Kanon is because he is suspisous, there are so many funny points about him. And no it doesn't, that red doesn't prove he is alive. A rock can be called dead. Because it was never alive in the first place, and the term for dead means something that isn't living, since the rock isn't alive it is can be called 'dead'.

No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon This statment can really be taken two ways. 1. Kanon never died, and 2. Kanon was never alive in the first place, therefore making it impossible for any thing to kill him, ever. Because if he was never alive in the first place, it is impossible to kill him, since he is already 'dead.'
Or you could use some really twisted logic, and say that since no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon, then he must be alive, for the people on the island to be unable to kill him. You can't kill a corpse, in any situation. What I get from the red is that in another situation, you could kill Kanon. But if he's a corpse, you'd never be able to kill him. Unless Beato (or was it Lambda?) had added onto it that the red is applicable to the entire game, then I don't change my position.
Even if it's ridiculously loose.
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Old 2010-06-14, 19:07   Link #11042
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
The reason it only applies to Kanon is because he is suspisous, there are so many funny points about him. And no it doesn't, that red doesn't prove he is alive. A rock can be called dead. Because it was never alive in the first place, and the term for dead means something that isn't living, since the rock isn't alive it is can be called 'dead'.

No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon This statment can really be taken two ways. 1. Kanon never died, and 2. Kanon was never alive in the first place, therefore making it impossible for any thing to kill him, ever. Because if he was never alive in the first place, it is impossible to kill him, since he is already 'dead.'
Are you kidding? Because he's suspicious he can't exist? There are tons of people who are suspicious with the red. Haha. I'll repeat my argument again. Kanon cut the chain, Kanon was present with everyone before he entered the boiler room. He can't be dead before that happened. A living person was there to do those things. There is also no evidence in 1986 for a Kanon disguise. Foreshadowing in 1986 for a disguise like that has never been presented to me. Try again.
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Old 2010-06-14, 19:11   Link #11043
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Are you kidding? Because he's suspicious he can't exist? There are tons of people who are suspicious with the red. Haha. I'll repeat my argument again. Kanon cut the chain, Kanon was present with everyone before he entered the boiler room. He can't be dead before that happened. A living person was there to do those things. There is also no evidence in 1986 for a Kanon disguise. Foreshadowing in 1986 for a disguise like has never been presented to me. Try again.
I didn't say that he can't exist, I just was saying that is is possible that he doesn't exist. And I think I've found slight evidence of a diguise in ep1.
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:17   Link #11044
ShikiGamiLD
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The number of humans on the island with erika is 17. Which means that without Erika is 16.
The most logic theory for this is that Shannon and Kannon, even if they are 2 different persona, they share the same body.

Not only that, as stated on EP6 it appears that there is a conflict between Shannon and Kannon, that today one of them, or them both have to die. So Kannon is always killed by Shannon, and Shannon is always killed by kannon. So technically they could be killed by other person who is not other of the humans of the island.

They both say that they are just furniture, and that they have no freedom. This could mean that maybe they are just furniture of yet another persona for that body. And maybe this other persona is the Ushiromiya Battler who was born from Asumu.
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:32   Link #11045
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShikiGamiLD View Post
The number of humans on the island with erika is 17
This is not confirmed as fact, sorry.

The exact wording is

"Even if we welcome you, it's 17 people." Literal translation.

This could just as easily imply that Erika does not exist, and even if her piece is welcomed onto the board, it does not count towards the total. It's 17 with or without Erika. Neither interpretation has been asserted as fact as of yet.

Don't misrepresent the red.
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:37   Link #11046
TTR
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Proof speaks louder then words :3

In any case. A rock can be called dead, but it can never "become" dead. i.e. Kanon could have never been alive, or that red truth can be twisted to say that an accident happened of some sort. That way, Kannon has still "died," but no human or dead person "killed" him

I propose that Kannon died in some sort of accident in which no one set up. Proving it is a Devil's proof, since there are limitless ways he could have died in some sort of accident that is NOT a trap.
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:43   Link #11047
zRyuu
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Lambdadelta has said in red Kanon did not die in an accident!
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:49   Link #11048
TTR
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Oh, she probably ruled out suicide as well...

Hm. Well, people can die in homocides, suicides, accidents, and...

Some sort of natural cause? Kanon is hit with a stroke, dies of a sudden malady? Was that ruled out?

i.e. Something metaphorical like this. like a heart attack. A poetic heart attack because he was never able to use his heart lol

I wouldn't put it past Kinzo... I mean 07...
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Old 2010-06-14, 23:57   Link #11049
Shiro Kaisen
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Kanon was mortally wounded by Shannon, who faked her death at the First Twilight. However, Kanon did not die! He came back, killed Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa, and then was killed in the bomb blast after the game's conclusion, so his death is not subject to red text!

Alternatively, Kanon attempted suicide but failed!
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:01   Link #11050
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShikiGamiLD View Post
The number of humans on the island with erika is 17. Which means that without Erika is 16.
The most logic theory for this is that Shannon and Kannon, even if they are 2 different persona, they share the same body.

Not only that, as stated on EP6 it appears that there is a conflict between Shannon and Kannon, that today one of them, or them both have to die. So Kannon is always killed by Shannon, and Shannon is always killed by kannon. So technically they could be killed by other person who is not other of the humans of the island.

They both say that they are just furniture, and that they have no freedom. This could mean that maybe they are just furniture of yet another persona for that body. And maybe this other persona is the Ushiromiya Battler who was born from Asumu.
That's been just about everybody's conclusion. You might want to think of other ideas, because Shkanon is one of those wire-thin theories that could very easily get jossed brutally in the beginning of EP7 just for trolling's sake. It could also just as easily get confirmed, true, but I like to promote coming up with new ideas rather than stagnating on the obvious one. Something Battler said about firing a ton of random shots in the hopes that one of them will hit ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR
Some sort of natural cause? Kanon is hit with a stroke, dies of a sudden malady? Was that ruled out?

i.e. Something metaphorical like this. like a heart attack. A poetic heart attack because he was never able to use his heart lol
Deliberate, pre-set traps were laughed at, but NEVER ruled out. Lambda ruled out "accidents" instead - and a trap is not an accident, at least the way I see it. And given that a boiler explosion is one of many possible triggers for the 12:00AM disaster, it's not entirely impossible that there were traps set there to prevent people from interfering. (this explanation could also explain Kanon's monologue in some ways)

It's also possible that somebody attacked him, but he didn't die - it only said that nobody could kill him. Either he went into a coma or Jessica and Nanjo are accomplices and he was the one killing everybody after the 6th twilight.
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:34   Link #11051
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
That's been just about everybody's conclusion. You might want to think of other ideas, because Shkanon is one of those wire-thin theories that could very easily get jossed brutally in the beginning of EP7 just for trolling's sake. It could also just as easily get confirmed, true, but I like to promote coming up with new ideas rather than stagnating on the obvious one. Something Battler said about firing a ton of random shots in the hopes that one of them will hit ?
For some reason I don't expect he's going to confirm any of them. He said he regretted that he gave away the answer so easily when he wrote Higurashi. So even though he says episode 7 will have a merciless answer it might not have anything to do with the number count at all. He might just gloss over that and go straight into how the murders are committed.
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:39   Link #11052
ShikiGamiLD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
That's been just about everybody's conclusion. You might want to think of other ideas, because Shkanon is one of those wire-thin theories that could very easily get jossed brutally in the beginning of EP7 just for trolling's sake. It could also just as easily get confirmed, true, but I like to promote coming up with new ideas rather than stagnating on the obvious one. Something Battler said about firing a ton of random shots in the hopes that one of them will hit ?
Then what about The whole Beatrice hoax is part of a scene play that the half wing servants are doing as part of Kinzo's testament. They start this as a game to force everyone to solve the epitaph as Kinzo wished, and all the deaths are beginning aren't supposed to be real and they even some times ask for the "victim's" cooperation to create this illusion. But things get out of hand and people really starts dying after their scene play, but at that point nobody can confess what has being happening because they instantly would become prime suspects of murder.

Of course there's the Asumu death theory Rosa = Asumu, so she committed incest with Rudolf, but after Maria's birth it was becoming more difficult to hide her real personality, so she "killed" Asumu.The Jessica = Kannon theory, she is a trasgender homo-erotic bishonen
There's also the Gohda killer theory, At 12:00AM of the second day, everybody died of food poisoning.
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:45   Link #11053
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShikiGamiLD View Post
Then what about The whole Beatrice hoax is part of a scene play that the half wing servants are doing as part of Kinzo's testament. They start this as a game to force everyone to solve the epitaph as Kinzo wished, and all the deaths are beginning aren't supposed to be real and they even some times ask for the "victim's" cooperation to create this illusion. But things get out of hand and people really starts dying after their scene play, but at that point nobody can confess what has being happening because they instantly would become prime suspects of murder.

Of course there's the Asumu death theory Rosa = Asumu, so she committed incest with Rudolf, but after Maria's birth it was becoming more difficult to hide her real personality, so she "killed" Asumu.The Jessica = Kannon theory, she is a trasgender homo-erotic bishonen
There's also the Gohda killer theory, At 12:00AM of the second day, everybody died of food poisoning.
All of these would make great comedies, but they don't really solve anything.
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:50   Link #11054
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
All of these would make great comedies, but they don't really solve anything.
The debate on whether Umineko is a murder mystery, a fantasy, or a romance can be neatly settled by it being something else entirely - and a comedy has not been ruled out yet.
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Old 2010-06-15, 00:51   Link #11055
Laserworm
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@TTR

Yes a rock can't become dead, for it is always and will forever remain dead. The word "Dead" can mean 2 things. (That would relate at all to umineko)
  1. A living thing that has died
  2. Never having been alive and having none of the characteristics of a living thing

I thought the second meaning was rather interesting.

@ameskitty

But then we get the lovely 'Trap X' nonsense back again, and there was nothing found that seemed to look like a trap. Even if the Ushiromiya people are brain dead, I'm sure they would notice something if it was out of place.

Ok, allow me to explain how Kanon can be imagenairy and dead, and thus is my reason for thinking this way.

When I was little I played with imaginary friends, I was a very shy kid so I was afraid of talking to other kids so I could just play with my 3 imaginary friends. (Until I turned about 6 or 7 I think it was) Anyway; my friends were alive to me. But they were dead to everyone else. But to me they were real, they did things like normal people, they went on trips, had jobs, got hurt even. One of them I even 'killed.' I remember it really well, because it wasn't long before I stopped playing with them entierly. I was crying and screaming that Ixy got hurt. I made a whole big deal out of it, and even had my family come with me while Ixy got operated on. (Yeah I was sort of a strange kid XD) Now to my family Ixy didn't exist, Ixy never really was alive, so therefore to them she was 'dead.' But when I decided and chose that Ixy died while getting operated on. She became dead even to me. Until that moment, she was alive to me, but when I decided that; she became 'dead'. In my mind she had died a horrible death, but to everyone else she 'died' because I got bored with her and was growing up. Until that moment when I called her dead, she could appear where ever she wanted, because I could make her be anywhere, at any time. But when I; her creator denied her existance, she would become 'dead' everywhere.

(After spilling all that I kind of feel like I was a nutcase as a little kid XD)
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-06-15, 01:04   Link #11056
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The debate on whether Umineko is a murder mystery, a fantasy, or a romance can be neatly settled by it being something else entirely - and a comedy has not been ruled out yet.
Well the tenth commandment of romance novels is Thou shalt not forget you have promised thy reader a fantasy

Either way, Romance or Comedy, that's what you get. A fantasy. I'd like to think other than the Dante references a comedy has no foreshadowing though.
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Old 2010-06-15, 01:17   Link #11057
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Either way, Romance or Comedy, that's what you get. A fantasy. I'd like to think other than the Dante references a comedy has no foreshadowing though.
So what you're saying is that it's not just any ordinary comedy... it's *puts on sunglasses* a divine comedy?

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH


Seriously though, I don't think Ryukishi would actually pull the "it's not a mystery so the Knox rules don't count" troll. Not if he wants to retain credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
For some reason I don't expect he's going to confirm any of them.
Actually, I think the exact opposite... I think he's going to just gloss over the specifics of the murders while instead confirming stuff like Battler's identity and the person count.

He needs to at least arm us with The Answer. We can probably go back and figure out X Closed Room ourselves.
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Old 2010-06-15, 01:34   Link #11058
Judoh
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Or maybe since he says there's going to be tons of backstory in episode 7 we might just be getting a crappy ass clip show. I wouldn't put it past him.
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Old 2010-06-15, 01:43   Link #11059
Laserworm
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I believe we might have to read ep7 carefully, after all since Bern is the GM, we might see more lies than normal.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-06-15, 03:01   Link #11060
ShikiGamiLD
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Well, according to Ryukishi07 on the special edition of Radio of the Golden Witch, he is planing to reveal the culprit on EP7.
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