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Old 2010-06-15, 03:17   Link #11061
zRyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
The reason it only applies to Kanon is because he is suspisous, there are so many funny points about him. And no it doesn't, that red doesn't prove he is alive. A rock can be called dead. Because it was never alive in the first place, and the term for dead means something that isn't living, since the rock isn't alive it is can be called 'dead'.

No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon This statment can really be taken two ways. 1. Kanon never died, and 2. Kanon was never alive in the first place, therefore making it impossible for any thing to kill him, ever. Because if he was never alive in the first place, it is impossible to kill him, since he is already 'dead.'
This is what Beatrice said on EP4.
"Very well, next! Kanon was killed in the boiler room, correct? I shall add to the red truth. All off the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!"
Also "Kanon did not commit suicide" and Kanon did not die in an accident! by Lambdadelta.

We have seen on EP5 that the context in which the red text is used matters. Lambdadelta saying that George group + Genji died, after the game ended doesnt mean Geoge group + Genji died at the time Erika thought they did, the evidence was that the corpses dissappeared. So.. i think this red text is refering specifically to the incident in the boiler room, so saying that no human could have killed Kanon in the boiler room is completely fine, Kanon didnt die in an accident or commited suicide in the boiler room is also completely fine. According to the text in EP1, Kanon died while being taken out from there and the corpse wasnt left in the boiler room, i can use this as evidence to say that Kanon didnt die in there, thus the red text is alright and doesnt contradict what im about to say. Whether he died from an accident, suicide or homicide outside the boiler room doesnt contradict the red text. However, i do believe something happened in the boiler room, at least thats what the magic interpretation of what happened shows us. Kanon was attacked by a person, however he did not die in the boiler room by this person. This person killed Kanon while he was being taken to Nanjo, but not in the boiler room thus this doesnt contradict the context in which the red text was mentioned.

Last edited by zRyuu; 2010-06-15 at 03:28.
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Old 2010-06-15, 05:49   Link #11062
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
But when I; her creator denied her existance, she would become 'dead' everywhere.
The problem with this is that you, the creator, can still imagine a miraculous resurrection, and the dead imaginary friend suddenly stops being dead. It really messes things up.
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Old 2010-06-15, 06:31   Link #11063
Krystalwitch
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I'm just gonna post here some random reasoning, so it's up to you if you wan't to read it.

First of all, I think it's pretty damn obvious that this was planned before hand, thus I think there is more than one culprit. I actually think they may be always the same ones, but in some EPs, they betray each other. Of course, I think this was planned before hand because of the bottles, who "Beatrice" wrote, and the letters sent to the relatives.

Okay, for more things. I actually think that "Beatrice" what really wants is to prevent the incidents, so she may heard the plan and wrote the letters. After all, she has the same writing as the "Beatrice" in Maria's diary, so I think there must be someone living on kuwadorian. We should include the information given in the TIP "notes of a certain cook", where Gohda sees a woman in underwear (I think it's that way... xD ) in the mansion.

And I noticed due to a previous comment that in the games Kanon's body "disappears" is when Kinzo "is still alive" until the end. THAT may be interesting.

Hmm... there's still more. I think Asumu may be related to the incidents since Battler's birth is important, Rudolf knows he's gonna die, Beato tried to deny Battler existence throught his birth, etc.

I was planning to say more, but I completly forgot about a lot of stuff. So that's all, maybe I'll post later.
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Old 2010-06-15, 06:42   Link #11064
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Krystalwitch View Post
Okay, for more things. I actually think that "Beatrice" what really wants is to prevent the incidents, so she may heard the plan and wrote the letters. After all, she has the same writing as the "Beatrice" in Maria's diary, so I think there must be someone living on kuwadorian. We should include the information given in the TIP "notes of a certain cook", where Gohda sees a woman in underwear (I think it's that way... xD ) in the mansion.
The interesting bit about the Kuwadorian is that while we never see scenes in the interior of Kuwadorian that unambiguously say that this is where they happen, we see backgrounds associated with Kuwadorian in several unexpected places.

Namely, scenes between Maria and Ange where Ange tells Maria to show her magic, and scenes between Maria and Beatrice all seem to happen in the vicinity of Kuwadorian. In fact, I should grep through the script and make a complete list of where those backgrounds are used...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystalwitch View Post
And I noticed due to a previous comment that in the games Kanon's body "disappears" is when Kinzo "is still alive" until the end. THAT may be interesting.
LyricalAura brought this up before in detail. It appears that it is possible for Kanon's body to be Kinzo's body in some situations, but it is quite definite that all instances of Kinzo's body cannot be Kanon's body, which is a shame since it would really simplify some things.

Unfortunately as I have mentioned previously, the particular kind of polydactily Kinzo has to have for it to be recognisable that he had it after his body is incinerated is much more rare than 1 in 1000 live births that the characters cite on screen, possibly making his body completely unique in this moment on Earth. It is not known whether Ryukishi is aware of that or not.
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Old 2010-06-15, 08:15   Link #11065
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The interesting bit about the Kuwadorian is that while we never see scenes in the interior of Kuwadorian that unambiguously say that this is where they happen, we see backgrounds associated with Kuwadorian in several unexpected places.

Namely, scenes between Maria and Ange where Ange tells Maria to show her magic, and scenes between Maria and Beatrice all seem to happen in the vicinity of Kuwadorian. In fact, I should grep through the script and make a complete list of where those backgrounds are used...



LyricalAura brought this up before in detail. It appears that it is possible for Kanon's body to be Kinzo's body in some situations, but it is quite definite that all instances of Kinzo's body cannot be Kanon's body, which is a shame since it would really simplify some things.

Unfortunately as I have mentioned previously, the particular kind of polydactily Kinzo has to have for it to be recognisable that he had it after his body is incinerated is much more rare than 1 in 1000 live births that the characters cite on screen, possibly making his body completely unique in this moment on Earth. It is not known whether Ryukishi is aware of that or not.
We can't even be sure the Kuwadorian exists, can we? Battler never sees proof of it's existence, Ange only ever hears rumours of a second mansion. The only proof we have of it are fantasy scenes and flashbacks, both of which are debatable of their credibility.
Still, there's no reason for me to doubt it's existence, since it offers a reasonable place for Eva to escape to when she survives. So I trust that it exists.

I'm going to trust Ryuukishi to not be an idiot and recognize that polydactyly that Kinzo has is extraordinarily rare. In fact, this may be a small bit of cleverness on his part. Why would he even bother to mention that Kinzo has dual-foot-boned-polydactyly? Aside from further proof of Kinzo's difference from normal humans, it doesn't serve much purpose. However, if we take it as truth that he has this rare polydactyly, then that means that it must be Kinzo's corpse whenever a double-six-toed corpse shows up.
Granted, we can't tell if the corpse has six toes on each foot if the corpse is wearing shoes, which is what I assume the Kanon corpse to be doing, but I really, really doubt anyone on the island is stupid enough to mistake an old man's corpse as a young boys corpse.
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Old 2010-06-15, 08:20   Link #11066
TTR
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IIRC Ronove gave us a red truth that Kuwadorian did exist, in the 60's (I forgot the exact year) Beatrice was alive in human form, and shortly after Beatrice gives a red truth that she has died for sure.

The only thing that bugs me is that the story of Rosa's Beatrice dying and the servant in Natsuhi's story dying are MUCH too similar for my tastes. I think 07 wants to make a point, but it feels too obvious to connect them. Too many people fall off cliffs in this story :/
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Old 2010-06-15, 08:27   Link #11067
Krystalwitch
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Granted, we can't tell if the corpse has six toes on each foot if the corpse is wearing shoes, which is what I assume the Kanon corpse to be doing, but I really, really doubt anyone on the island is stupid enough to mistake an old man's corpse as a young boys corpse.
You know, I was talking about when Kinzo "appears" in EP4, not the corpse.

And yeah, in fact it's proved that Kuwadorian exists. Though I don't believe Eva went there...
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Old 2010-06-15, 09:14   Link #11068
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystalwitch View Post
You know, I was talking about when Kinzo "appears" in EP4, not the corpse.

And yeah, in fact it's proved that Kuwadorian exists. Though I don't believe Eva went there...
Sorry, I wasn't going for anything to deny that idea. I was just backing up Oliver's theory from a while back that there's no way someone could confuse Kinzo's corpse for Kanon's, or Kanon's corpse for Kinzo's.
There's a lot of random links between certain events and things that affect the status of the island and the people on it. Like how the phone lines manage to say intact if Genji doesn't appear to survive long enough to possibly damage them. As much as Oliver might like to debate Genji's ability to do so, it's a link. It also seems that whenever Kinzo's burnt corpse is discovered, Kanon turns up dead shortly after.

Hm... I wonder what time period Ronove's red applies to. I'm not sure how well the Kuwadorian was built, but it's very easy for even a nice mansion to degrade over twenty years. Especially if it's in the middle of a forest. If his red applies to the time period of the conference, I'll admit that the Kuwadorian exists in habitable shape. If it doesn't, I say the Kuwadorian exists, but by the time of the family conference, it's nothing more than a worn-down old building, not even passable for habitation.
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Old 2010-06-15, 09:36   Link #11069
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Hm... I wonder what time period Ronove's red applies to. I'm not sure how well the Kuwadorian was built, but it's very easy for even a nice mansion to degrade over twenty years. Especially if it's in the middle of a forest. If his red applies to the time period of the conference, I'll admit that the Kuwadorian exists in habitable shape. If it doesn't, I say the Kuwadorian exists, but by the time of the family conference, it's nothing more than a worn-down old building, not even passable for habitation.
Considering that Kuwadorian is definitely a few years older than the main mansion and possibly older even than Kinzo's ownership of the island, it could well be not just a 'worn-down old building' but a complete ruin. But apparently, at least some level of maintenance was involved, because in Ep4, Eva supposedly auctions off books stored there, and old books really don't take being stored in ruins very well.
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Old 2010-06-15, 09:44   Link #11070
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Considering that Kuwadorian is definitely a few years older than the main mansion and possibly older even than Kinzo's ownership of the island, it could well be not just a 'worn-down old building' but a complete ruin. But apparently, at least some level of maintenance was involved, because in Ep4, Eva supposedly auctions off books stored there, and old books really don't take being stored in ruins very well.
We are told that Eva found the books there, but what proof do we have of it? Ange's narration? Not exactly the most reliable thing out there, if you ask me.
As I said before though, I don't have any reason to doubt the existence of the Kuwadorian, I'm just having fun by playing the devil's advocate.
Wait, where is it mentioned that the Kuwadorian outdates the main mansion? I don't remember ever seeing that.
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Old 2010-06-15, 10:32   Link #11071
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Wait, where is it mentioned that the Kuwadorian outdates the main mansion? I don't remember ever seeing that.
I've been counting. Turns out that no matter how much rounding up captain Kawabata engages in when describing his trips to Kuwadrian port, it still ends up being used already before the main mansion is even completed.
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Old 2010-06-15, 11:27   Link #11072
Pikatira
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Okay this first theory is just a random one that barely works with only Epi 2. I was bored and thinking about if Shkannon theory was possible. Be free to rip it apart because it is just a random (maybe it could happen) theory.

Spoiler for George is in Control:




Okay this theory is more serious.


Spoiler for Kinzo is the Bomb:
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Old 2010-06-15, 11:59   Link #11073
Renall
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Originally Posted by Krystalwitch View Post
And yeah, in fact it's proved that Kuwadorian exists. Though I don't believe Eva went there...
Ange was told the police found Eva there when they got to the island. Why the police were going to the island I'm not sure about, but it could suggest Eva was trapped there for some time, unable to leave the island... or that Captain Kawabata immediately notified authorities. If the disaster was substantial enough, I'm sure he called the police as soon as he got close to the island and saw it.

But if the police located Eva safe at Kuwadorian, I can't see why there'd be any conspiracy to lie about it. In fact, the first thing Kawabata may have done is tell the police about the other mansion, hoping that somebody was there. None of the parties telling Ange any of this really seem inclined to just make that detail up.
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Old 2010-06-15, 13:22   Link #11074
Oliver
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Ange was told the police found Eva there when they got to the island. Why the police were going to the island I'm not sure about, but it could suggest Eva was trapped there for some time, unable to leave the island... or that Captain Kawabata immediately notified authorities. If the disaster was substantial enough, I'm sure he called the police as soon as he got close to the island and saw it.
Actually, even if it wasn't substantial, Kawabata would be the one calling the police, because he would be the first one to see the damage, whatever the real extent of it is, and the guy with the working radio -- he would be arriving as soon as weather permits to retrieve all the busy company presidents for whom Monday 6th is a work day. The moment he calls the police is only different by a few hours depending on the extent of the damage, that is, from how far can he see it and whether he needs to disembark to see it.

Now, once it's clear there are no survivors, the only one who can remember Kuwadorian exists and may contain someone is once again Kawabata. Interestingly, he still says he has never seen Kuwadorian, even though he would be the one shuttling a team to the second port, as the only man present who knows where it is.

Why didn't he go with them?...
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Old 2010-06-15, 13:48   Link #11075
Raiza Sunozaki
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Actually, even if it wasn't substantial, Kawabata would be the one calling the police, because he would be the first one to see the damage, whatever the real extent of it is, and the guy with the working radio -- he would be arriving as soon as weather permits to retrieve all the busy company presidents for whom Monday 6th is a work day. The moment he calls the police is only different by a few hours depending on the extent of the damage, that is, from how far can he see it and whether he needs to disembark to see it.

Now, once it's clear there are no survivors, the only one who can remember Kuwadorian exists and may contain someone is once again Kawabata. Interestingly, he still says he has never seen Kuwadorian, even though he would be the one shuttling a team to the second port, as the only man present who knows where it is.

Why didn't he go with them?...
My theory is that she ran blindly into the forest in terror, sort of like how Rosa ran towards the beach in Episode 2. Once deep in the forest, she stumbled upon the Kuwadorian, habitable or not, and took refuge there.
Once the tremors, burning, and other disasterous events that would follow the explosion, she was probably able to sleep the most peacefully that she could've for two days now. It's very likely she could've overslept the nine o'clock that Kawabata promised to arrive at. He would've radio'd the police, who I'm hoping would be able to respond half-decently to an emergency and would've shown up within three hours at max, giving Eva plenty of time to wake up, freshen herself up if possible, and wander around lost for a couple hours until she found her way to the police.
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Old 2010-06-15, 13:52   Link #11076
Judoh
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I'm just wondering do we really need a safe haven for someone to survive? I guess we assumed that, but couldn't Eva or whoever just take Krauss's boat and go to Niijima? I don't think it's really as far away as we might think.
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Old 2010-06-15, 13:53   Link #11077
Tresspasser
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One thing that's puzzling me is the first twilight in EP 1. When it began, it showed you where everyone was on the island. But Nanjo's location was a mystery, I was wondering if anyone had a theory for that due to the fact that no one seems to have mentioned it yet.
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Old 2010-06-15, 13:54   Link #11078
Oliver
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I'm just wondering do we really need a safe haven for someone to survive? I guess we assumed that, but couldn't Eva just take Krauss's boat and go to Niijima? I don't think it's really as far away as we might think.
She couldn't, unless Genji is lying.

Genji: "Krauss-sama's boat is being repaired and is not on the island... Therefore, we must wait for the boat coming on Monday......"

P.S.: Oh, about how far Niijima really is. It takes 20 minutes at 40 knots to reach Rokkenjima from Niijima, if I'm understanding the bragging about the speed correctly. A knot is 1 nautical mile per hour, that is, 1885m/h. Therefore Niijima is at most 25km away. Too far to swim for most people who are not truly exceptional athletes, enough to produce navigational errors in anyone who does not know their navigation, but not too far to go from Rokkenjima if there is a lighthouse on Niijima, which should exist.
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Old 2010-06-15, 14:00   Link #11079
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Tresspasser View Post
One thing that's puzzling me is the first twilight in EP 1. When it began, it showed you where everyone was on the island. But Nanjo's location was a mystery, I was wondering if anyone had a theory for that due to the fact that no one seems to have mentioned it yet.
Nanjo is not the culprit. Therefore, his location is relatively unimportant to me. It is possible that he could've assisted in the the murders, but most people simply place him as a non-murdering accomplice, who confirms the deaths of the people who are dead, and lying about the ones who are faking their deaths.
But if you want to make a theory where his location is a clue to him being suspicious, go right ahead.
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Old 2010-06-15, 14:07   Link #11080
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I've been counting. Turns out that no matter how much rounding up captain Kawabata engages in when describing his trips to Kuwadrian port, it still ends up being used already before the main mansion is even completed.
I reached the same conclusion when I made my timeline. The Kuwadorian is older than the mansion, and I suspect that it was there even before Kinzo bought the island. It might as well be the very reason Kinzo decided to buy the island and transfer the whole family there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystalwitch View Post
And yeah, in fact it's proved that Kuwadorian exists. Though I don't believe Eva went there...
Granted that in this kind of story anything can be questioned, there isn't really anything that can be said to be more "probable" than the Kuwadorian's existence. Its existence is as solid as Rokkenjima's existence.

About Eva being there, this is something that was reported by official informations. It was repeated by Okonogi, and I think it was mentioned by Ange and Kawabata as well.

Also professor Otsuki claims that the books that Eva auctioned were taken from Kuwadorian.

So in the end we really have many different POW on the matter and they all concur . Granted that all of them are probably repeated with an official source told em, which obviously is the rescue squad that retrieved Eva from Rokkenjima.

You need to think about some kind of conspiracy to explain how is it possible that all the world believes that Eva was found in Kuwadorian when she actually wasn't there. But why? For which purpose they should have lied on this matter?
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