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Old 2010-06-16, 11:18   Link #11101
ferthepoet
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But if whatever cause the explosion is set lets say the 4th in morning it should be always to change since the board covers the whole day, given the episode 2 and 3 pre arrival at rokkenjima events that seem to episode exclusive
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Old 2010-06-16, 11:33   Link #11102
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Just think about the 9/11. I've just said two numbers but I guess you perfectly understood what I'm talking about. Nobody says "the terrorist attack at the world trade center", everyone is pretty much used to call it 9/11. And if this was a story you would say "why everyone is omitting to say what this "9/11" is?!"
This only seriously took root in the USA, I'm afraid. Around here, hearing "11th September" is just about as common as "WTC destruction" and depends on whom are you talking to (and their political views). While I agree that some characters may avoid mentioning it for this reason due to commonality, avoiding every single mention successfully is still narratively awkward.

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Anyway the fact it can never change fits more with a natural disaster scenario than with a human triggered one.
Unfortunately that would destroy the humanity of Beatrice, which turns the end of Ep4 puzzle from an awesome shocker into a fizzle. I strongly doubt this is possible for that reason. It sounds funny when Kinzo worships Beatrice's blast radius, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However the last, in particular, is not necessary because we know everyone can be saved simply by taking refuge in Kuwadorian.
Granted, I missed that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
First of all, where it is obviously intentional, like a subway bombing, people are not going to call it an accident. However, in a case where clues indicating an intentional explosion are not apparent, such as a gas leak or the Rokkenjima Explosion, people usually go with the assumption that it is an accident.
I've been using 'accident' and 'incident' rather interchangeably in there, sorry, but the structural considerations on the usage of either word are normally the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
However, like how Beato can modify the narration she gives Battler through the gameboard, isn't it possible for someone to modify Ange's narration that Battler receives. My immediate suspicions place this on Bern, but it seems out of character, at the time, for her.
Bern is pretty much the only one that can possibly be in position to do that. Either it is somehow in her character but we don't know how, or someone got there to perform the necessary edits before she did, or, no in-story explanation really exists and Ryukishi is behind everything.

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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
However, both Jessica and Shannon, who seem to be the only characters left that can be Beatrice, rarely ever survive until endgame, which means if Beatrice is the one who triggers the explosion, it must be done at an earlier point. My reasoning indicates a timed explosion, set to detonate unless the Epitaph is solved, but this is incredibly clich้d, so I'm reluctant to decide on it.
It's cliche, indeed, but it's about the only reasonable explanation left.
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Old 2010-06-16, 11:48   Link #11103
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However I have my doubts that this marks the end of each game. We know that the games end at midnight, but does that definitely means that incident happens at that precise time? It might be plausible, but I see no certain proof of this relation. The way I see it the unfortunate accident could have happened at any time in 6th October from 0:00 AM to 6:00 AM
An afterthought. Yes, there is something that may not be a certain proof that endgame event occurs on 5th at 24:00, but an implication I would consider rather strong.

Namely, the endgame answer session of Episode 5. Much of the red said in this session only fits together well if everyone is already dead, and at the moment the endgame answer session starts, the game time is declared to be frozen at 24:00 by Lambda. Ambiguities only disappear if everyone who is still alive dies as the grandfather clock strikes twelve.
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:28   Link #11104
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Unfortunately that would destroy the humanity of Beatrice, which turns the end of Ep4 puzzle from an awesome shocker into a fizzle. I strongly doubt this is possible for that reason. It sounds funny when Kinzo worships Beatrice's blast radius, but that's about it
Well.. we know how "cause and effect" are seen in a very broad sense from Ryuukishi's characters.

For example we know that Battler never killed anyone and he's no accomplice. However "because of him everyone dies".

Therefore it is possible that Beatrice claims to be the cause of Battler's death in EP4 because of some indirect way, like for example in the case she knows the island is going to blow up (apparently the seagulls do) be she refuses to warn everyone for some kind of reason related to Battler's short memory.

Then again the whole idea that the Beatrice Kinzo always cries about is not actually a woman would be an awesome Citizen Kane reference.
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:32   Link #11105
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I'm still fond of the notion of Beatrice literally being a bomb, if only in a literary sense, as it makes the epitaph pretty funny.

Putting the witch to sleep for all time = permanently disarming the bomb.

Of course, that would mean Kinzo knows about the bomb, feels affectionate toward it, had a painting made of a woman reputed to be a bomb (but also the woman actually existed), and needless to say it gets a bit stupid at this point.
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:48   Link #11106
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
For example we know that Battler never killed anyone and he's no accomplice. However "because of him everyone dies".
Unfortunately in this particular case Beatrice is being unusually literal. "I will kill you." This is only true if whatever kills Battler is either the non-person Beatrice herself, like the portrait falling on him and cracking his skull, or something that is a human Beatrice's literal weapon, i.e. a bomb.

So it doesn't quite work out.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm still fond of the notion of Beatrice literally being a bomb, if only in a literary sense, as it makes the epitaph pretty funny.
Uh-huh. Like this:

Shannon: "Beatoriche-sama, yu da bomb!"
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:50   Link #11107
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[list]
  • The official nature of the accident has to have been determined, or it would never be declared an accident. The official investigators have to settle on something even if it isn't true. Anything else looks bad and pleases the ufologists.
Aliens actually could be the official explanation though since the Izu archipelago is right slap dab in the middle of the dragon's triangle. Which is Japan's version of the Bermuda triangle.
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:56   Link #11108
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Aliens actually could be the official explanation though since the Izu archipelago is right slap dab in the middle of the dragon's triangle. Which is Japan's version of the Bermuda triangle.
Or bats with small bombs. No, really, this was a serious military project! Substitute seagulls for local flavour.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:00   Link #11109
ErenselTheJester
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<_< >_> 0_o....

Anyways, I haven't come up with much on my Numerological studies, I have found some numbers that fit into the date of Ushiromiya meeting, but I don't think those are anything important. However, I have become to theorize that the code 07151129 is somehow related to the Epitaph, in which they both lead to a Golden Land. If so, then the numbers presented in the Epitaph have some meaning that correlates to the code or the code is represented in the Epitaph as being the key.

Outside of that, I have noticed a contradiction in the Epitaph. In Numerological standards, there is no 10 since it would be seen as 1+0, so the tenth twilight in the Epitaph doesn't exist. So, if there is no Golden Land, then Battler shouldn't have met Beatrice and all the games outside of the first never existed.

Of course, these are small observations and guesses, nothing big yet.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:05   Link #11110
Krystalwitch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
<_< >_> 0_o....

Anyways, I haven't come up with much on my Numerological studies, I have found some numbers that fit into the date of Ushiromiya meeting, but I don't think those are anything important. However, I have become to theorize that the code 07151129 is somehow related to the Epitaph, in which they both lead to a Golden Land. If so, then the numbers presented in the Epitaph have some meaning that correlates to the code or the code is represented in the Epitaph as being the key.

Outside of that, I have noticed a contradiction in the Epitaph. In Numerological standards, there is no 10 since it would be seen as 1+0, so the tenth twilight in the Epitaph doesn't exist. So, if there is no Golden Land, then Battler shouldn't have met Beatrice and all the games outside of the first never existed.

Of course, these are small observations and guesses, nothing big yet.
Actually, Ryuukishi said that 07151129 IS related to the epitaph.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:24   Link #11111
Oliver
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Romans 7:15 (New International Version): I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Romans 11:29 (New International Version): for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Then again, you can find pretty much anything in the Bible.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:26   Link #11112
ErenselTheJester
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Wow, I didn't know that... That's a good guess on my part! Well, as long as my guess is varified, I'm sure my math will lead me to something. This is going to hurt like f*ck on my brain, but I'll be able to do it. Also, thanks for the Biblical find, I think that might help.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:28   Link #11113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm still fond of the notion of Beatrice literally being a bomb, if only in a literary sense, as it makes the epitaph pretty funny.

Putting the witch to sleep for all time = permanently disarming the bomb.

Of course, that would mean Kinzo knows about the bomb, feels affectionate toward it, had a painting made of a woman reputed to be a bomb (but also the woman actually existed), and needless to say it gets a bit stupid at this point.
I got this image of Battler in a cowboy hat riding 'Beatrice' the bomb yelling 'Yeehaaaaw!' as it falls all the way down to Rokkenjima.

It almost fits, you know. 8)

Kinzo's the one in the wheel chair doing in appropriate Nazi salutes. Krauss is the ineffectual and weak US president... Rosa's the closest one to the war mongering general...
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:28   Link #11114
Oliver
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Actually, considering that all magic circles use quotes from Psalms, and 07151129 first appears where one would and is displayed as one, it probably should be Psalms:

Psalm 7:15 (New International Version): He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made.
Psalm 112:9 (New International Version): He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn [a] will be lifted high in honor.

Footnotes: Psalm 112:9: Horn here symbolizes dignity.

P.S. Actually, there's only a limited number of quotes I'll be able to squeeze out of the Bible by applying 07151129, so I'll go fish and post the lot in a moment.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:34   Link #11115
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Romans 7:15 (New International Version): I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Romans 11:29 (New International Version): for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Then again, you can find pretty much anything in the Bible.
Considering the amount of Christian/Catholic references in Umineko, the possibility exists that the Bible, as much as I hate to consider the thought, might be of some help in solving some of the mysteries, particularily the Epitaph.
Hell, Kinzo built a chapel on his island. Either he's as into Western architecture as he is into Western occultics, or he built it for some religous purpose. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to be a Christian or a Catholic.
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do." Sort of feels like what Battler was going through for the first four Episodes. Though that has nothing to do with the Epitaph.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:37   Link #11116
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Psalm 112:9 (New International Version): He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn [a] will be lifted high in honor.

Footnotes: Psalm 112:9: Horn here symbolizes dignity.
"At the third twilight, praise my honourable name on high."
Anyone else notice the connection?
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:37   Link #11117
Judoh
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Psalms 7:7 (KJV) So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore return thou on high.

This one sounds likely that it's referenced in the epitaph. The praise my name on high part.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:07   Link #11118
Oliver
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Ok, going from the assumption that 07151129 is an encoded Biblical message, here is what I get. I'm using the New International Version as the reference as it is the most language agnostic, there's no telling which one Ryukishi might have used, though just to be sure I'll do the same for King James for the more promising ones. We have no indication which book of the Bible to use, so I'm going through all of them in order, let's see if we get anything that sounds interesting. I'm assuming that "07" means "7", since numbering in the Bible starts at 0.

Only those where both passages numbered in this manner exist are listed.

Genesis:
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark.
Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor's wife was Milcah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milcah and Iscah.

Leviticus:
The meat of his fellowship offering of thanksgiving must be eaten on the day it is offered; he must leave none of it till morning.
'Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard,

Numbers:
one young bull, one ram and one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering;
But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"

Deuteronomy:
The LORD will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.
When the LORD your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses.

Judges:
When Gideon heard the dream and its interpretation, he worshiped God. He returned to the camp of Israel and called out, "Get up! The LORD has given the Midianite camp into your hands."
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.

1 Kings:
He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line.
About that time Jeroboam was going out of Jerusalem, and Ahijah the prophet of Shiloh met him on the way, wearing a new cloak. The two of them were alone out in the country,

1 Chronicles:
Makir took a wife from among the Huppites and Shuppites. His sister's name was Maacah. Another descendant was named Zelophehad, who had only daughters.
Sibbecai the Hushathite, Ilai the Ahohite,

Nehemiah:
of Binnui
in En Rimmon, in Zorah, in Jarmuth,

Psalms
11:29 does not exist, but 112:9 does:

He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made.
He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor.

Proverbs:
So I came out to meet you; I looked for you and have found you!
He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise.

Matthew:
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mark:
Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'
Jesus replied, "I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

Luke:
The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

John:
The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"
When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him.

Acts:
Then Jacob went down to Egypt, where he and our fathers died.
The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.

Romans:
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians:
But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

2 Corinthians:
And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling.
Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

Hebrews:
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.


So, which do you ladies and gentlemen find the the most interesting and do any of them make any Umineko sense?
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:07   Link #11119
Kylon99
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I would probably say Psalms is the book to mine from, seeing as how the other spells were phrases from that. At worst, maybe Proverbs as well?

It may indicate whoever is doing this likes the Old Testament (Torah) better than the new. Especially with the use of Hebrew.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:12   Link #11120
Raiza Sunozaki
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Didn't catch anything incredibly mind-warping, but I did catch a wolf in sheep's clothing line, which is sort of related to Maria's puzzle book.
Oh, I've got it! Maria's puzzlebook is secretly a Bible!
Nah. Other than that, I've got nothing.
Sorry Oliver, but I think the Bible search was futile.
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