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Old 2010-06-16, 14:28   Link #11121
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Didn't catch anything incredibly mind-warping, but I did catch a wolf in sheep's clothing line, which is sort of related to Maria's puzzle book.
Oh, I've got it! Maria's puzzlebook is secretly a Bible!
Nah. Other than that, I've got nothing.
Sorry Oliver, but I think the Bible search was futile.
Possibly. I kind of like the Psalms best, and see the phrase as a possible reference to Kinzo.

Who dug a hole into which he fell himself, and is helping the poor by that, now praise and honour the poor old geezer.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:36   Link #11122
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm still fond of the notion of Beatrice literally being a bomb, if only in a literary sense, as it makes the epitaph pretty funny.

Putting the witch to sleep for all time = permanently disarming the bomb.

Of course, that would mean Kinzo knows about the bomb, feels affectionate toward it, had a painting made of a woman reputed to be a bomb (but also the woman actually existed), and needless to say it gets a bit stupid at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I got this image of Battler in a cowboy hat riding 'Beatrice' the bomb yelling 'Yeehaaaaw!' as it falls all the way down to Rokkenjima.

It almost fits, you know. 8)
Dr. Strangelove must have really left an impression on you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Unfortunately in this particular case Beatrice is being unusually literal. "I will kill you." This is only true if whatever kills Battler is either the non-person Beatrice herself, like the portrait falling on him and cracking his skull, or something that is a human Beatrice's literal weapon, i.e. a bomb.
You can't interpret this literally either way. We know that Beatrice isn't alive there, so even if you suggests that Beatrice set up a trap "I will kill you" is still not the 100% correct way to put it. Because the sentence implies that the subject is going to take an action in the future.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:45   Link #11123
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You can't interpret this literally either way. We know that Beatrice isn't alive there, so even if you suggests that Beatrice set up a trap "I will kill you" is still not the 100% correct way to put it. Because the sentence implies that the subject is going to take an action in the future.
I'm not sure that future action implication is not a translation artifact.

"今から私が、あなたを殺します" Ima kara watashi ga, anata wo koroshimasu.
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Old 2010-06-16, 15:03   Link #11124
Jan-Poo
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With the present form you still have the same problem.

anyway Renall, Kylon, look at what you made me do!

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Old 2010-06-16, 17:58   Link #11125
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I'm not sure that future action implication is not a translation artifact.

"今から私が、あなたを殺します" Ima kara watashi ga, anata wo koroshimasu.
HEY! Wait a second!

Did anyone catch that? She used 私 rather than 妾...

Moetrice uses 私 (watashi) vs. Beatrice of Legend who used 妾 (warawa). I'm guessing the ghost Beatrice form that spoke the riddle was something similar to the relationship between Moetrice and Beatrice of Legend... some kind of split off.

Anyways, we've know from EP1 and 2, and especially from Bernkastel's letter that Beatrice was a representation or illusion of several rules. By rules I thought it meant several conspiracies or planned actions that people were going to take... so I don't think that Beatrice is literally the bomb but rather the resulting effects and consequence of the bombing and the change in landscape.

Namely, as a few of you have pointed out already, the change of view from the outside from a murder to an 'accident.' And the elimination of almost all evidence.


By the way, if this is true, and we surmise that the author of the episode letters knew about all the plans, then the author is the only thing that exposes that the incident was not an accident but a murder. Ok, EP4 already tells us this, but we can take a guess from this that this is the author's motive. So… Who has the motive to know all these plans, yet not be willing to take action? Instead they're willing to merely write about it afterwards? (My bet is Shannon... heh.)

Note that the author may not necessarily need to be someone on the island… though, it most likely is...
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:11   Link #11126
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
HEY! Wait a second!

Did anyone catch that? She used 私 rather than 妾...

Moetrice uses 私 (watashi) vs. Beatrice of Legend who used 妾 (warawa). I'm guessing the ghost Beatrice form that spoke the riddle was something similar to the relationship between Moetrice and Beatrice of Legend... some kind of split off.
It's already been mentioned that in EP 4 when Beatrice was giving her last red truths, she was using watashi instead of warawa.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:12   Link #11127
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Proverbs:
So I came out to meet you; I looked for you and have found you!
He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise.
This one is extremely applicable if you assume certain possible culprits. The second part especially, if you imagine some sort of "George/Jessica/Some Ushiromiya is plotting murder with a servant's help but the servant is playing them for a fool" thing.
Quote:
Luke:
The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
"The sign of Jonah" refers to when Jonah spent three days in the belly of a great fish (mistranslated as whale commonly). Jesus is using it as a reference to his own death and resurrection; he's criticizing people who expect grand miraculous events and the overthrow of Roman rule in Judea over what he will do. You could interpret the "sign of Jonah" literally as everyone being swallowed up by the sea.

The part about "this is a wicked generation" makes some sense for the adults, perhaps.

The part about giving a dead man back to his mother is interesting too, I suppose, but it's all a stretch. Battler?
Quote:
Romans:
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
An obvious prospect for a reluctant killer.
Quote:
Hebrews:
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
Reference to the tunnels being the safe passage?

To be honest, I don't think it's any of these.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:15   Link #11128
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, if this is true, and we surmise that the author of the episode letters knew about all the plans, then the author is the only thing that exposes that the incident was not an accident but a murder. Ok, EP4 already tells us this, but we can take a guess from this that this is the author's motive. So… Who has the motive to know all these plans, yet not be willing to take action? Instead they're willing to merely write about it afterwards? (My bet is Shannon... heh.)

Note that the author may not necessarily need to be someone on the island… though, it most likely is...
Actually I'm starting to think Nanjo is the bottle writer. Since he's not specifically shown to be anywhere when the murders happen (he's always alone too) and he seems to be a double agent accomplice who never actually murders anybody. I know that's kind of weird, but to me it explains why he has to be on the island. There is no specific reason other than the Kinzo conspiracy for him to lie all the time. If he's the writer for episode 1 and 2 at least his character could have some importance. Like Oliver said he's almost a non character.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:16   Link #11129
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
HEY! Wait a second!

Did anyone catch that? She used 私 rather than 妾...

Moetrice uses 私 (watashi) vs. Beatrice of Legend who used 妾 (warawa). I'm guessing the ghost Beatrice form that spoke the riddle was something similar to the relationship between Moetrice and Beatrice of Legend... some kind of split off.

Anyways, we've know from EP1 and 2, and especially from Bernkastel's letter that Beatrice was a representation or illusion of several rules. By rules I thought it meant several conspiracies or planned actions that people were going to take... so I don't think that Beatrice is literally the bomb but rather the resulting effects and consequence of the bombing and the change in landscape.

Namely, as a few of you have pointed out already, the change of view from the outside from a murder to an 'accident.' And the elimination of almost all evidence.


By the way, if this is true, and we surmise that the author of the episode letters knew about all the plans, then the author is the only thing that exposes that the incident was not an accident but a murder. Ok, EP4 already tells us this, but we can take a guess from this that this is the author's motive. So… Who has the motive to know all these plans, yet not be willing to take action? Instead they're willing to merely write about it afterwards? (My bet is Shannon... heh.)

Note that the author may not necessarily need to be someone on the island… though, it most likely is...
Kylon, I think you might be onto something here that you normaly couldn't get from the English translation.
Hey, does anyone know if there are any other instances where Beato uses "watashi" instead of "warawa?"

But all the Episodes avoid the topic of the endgame and it's events. It's almost as if the writer wants to make the world believe that it was an accident, or Beatrice, that killed the family.
Which means the bottle writer is either under a threat not to reveal that it was a pre-meidiated bomb, or agrees with the mastermind's plan to hide everything in the Illusion of the Witch.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:42   Link #11130
Jan-Poo
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I think that that "watashi" was noticed pretty fast after EP4 came out, but without any knowledge about "young sis" and "big sis" the only conclusion that was reached is that Beatrice lost her pride and started to talk like a normal person.

My opinion anyway is that rather than a split off, Beato is a merge between the "legend of the witch" and the "perfect girl meant to love Battler".

Your last thoughts are particularly interesting...

Let's reason about it...

-we know for sure that a devastating explosion happens in Rokkenjima, and that completely destroys the Mansion and probably the guesthouse and the chapel as well.

-we speculate that regardless of this event there's a person X that is performing murders.


Now the hypothesis that this person X knows about the explosion is very unlikely as it was pointed already. Because there's really no point in killing people that are bound to die, with the risk to alarm them and give them a chance to flee while a simple boom can solve the problem in an instant.

The only slim possibility that might make this work is that the killer is totally insane and wants to have "fun" before dying, or maybe really is into occultism and wants to perform a ritual.

In any other case this explosion cannot be seen as a "clean up" for a massacre, because this "clean up" works by itself a lot better than any massacre you have in mind.

then if we suppose that the killer doesn't know, but the author of the letters (Beatrice) does. The question is: "she cares or she doesn't care?"

If she knows the island is going to explode why would she care about this killer? The people are going to die anyway, and the killer is going to follow. This killer should be at best a nuisance in Beatrice's plans, so why would she bother trying to ask people to find out the truth.
And even so, what exactly is the humanity going to earn from knowing that among the family members that died in an "accident" there was a psycho who started murdering relatives that were bound to die anyway?
Isn't it really pointless since the killer dies as well? Isn't the world better off not knowing such details?

I can't see Beatrice bothering about that. So maybe it's the nature of the "accident" itself that should be considered?

So uhm... I just came up with this idea:

It is quite clear how everyone died, there's no need to question that. There has never been a psycho killer. The explosion killed everyone. But it wasn't an accident, there's someone who is responsible for it. The stories are meant to work as riddles. They are structured as your usual mystery novel. If you find out who is the culprit of the murders in the novel... then you find out who killed everyone in the real world!

So people started to wonder.... isn't it Eva this person? Aren't the messages in the bottles telling us that there is a culprit?
And then Hachijou had the great idea: "I'll write a story exactly like the one wrote by Beatrice and it will show exactly what people wants to see". Of course it was a hit!

But are these witch hunters really correct? Did they interpret Beatrice's will the way it was meant to be?


Maybe Beatrice really is the killer... there has never been another killer. Beatrice killed everyone by blasting off the island or letting it blast off. then she wrote the messages, creating fictional stories, the stories if solved will point to her, her true self. that way the world will know who in reality is responsible for the explosion.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:48   Link #11131
Judoh
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Isn't there something your overlooking? if the culprit(s) Know about the explosion than rather than suicide or having fun there is another motive. After the accident there will be no evidence that he was there or that he did anything. It's like knowing about the situation allows the murderer to be a murderer without fearing the consequences (as long as he has a way to survive it).
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:50   Link #11132
Jan-Poo
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Why the murder has to kill people himself (and expose himself to the risk of dying) instead of letting the explosion do the work?

Unless you can find a plausible explanation, the only options available are the one I listed.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:52   Link #11133
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why the murder has to kill people himself instead of letting the explosion do the work?
The explosion kills the people who know who he is while getting rid of all the evidence.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:56   Link #11134
Judoh
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Unless you can find a plausible explanation, the only options available are the one I listed.
Wait...why isn't getting rid of any evidence that a murder happened plausible? In fact why show that murders happened to the victims at all if they're all going to die anyway? If your going to murder people without fear like that than knowing there is no way you'll get caught is a perfect explanation. The only reason there is an introduction was the message bottles if that didn't happen there would be no game.
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Old 2010-06-16, 18:57   Link #11135
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I don't think you are following me Judoh. In this case the explosion wouldn't be a "clean up" it would be the mean to kill itself.

That means he's not killing people by his hands and there is no ritual serial murder. there's just a huge explosion and nothing else.
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Old 2010-06-16, 19:01   Link #11136
Raiza Sunozaki
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I'm liking where your thoughts are going, Jan-Poo. Especially the part where the culprit has no idea of the bomb, and that there is no "psycho" killer. I'm still confident there's someone going around murdering people because of Reason X, but now we can give them a slightly more human cause for murder, something "better" than psychopathically killing people.

Though this does present a problematic dillema. So now we've decided that Beatrice knows there is a bomb on Rokkenjima, but does not mention it in bottle stories, nor does she try during the gameboard to have someone disarm it, though this is debatable if we theorize that solving the Epitaph will end the threat of absolute destruction. However, this contradicts how the explosion takes place in both Episode 3 and 5, even after the Epitaph is solved.
Anyway, back to the dillema. This must mean that Beatrice has either given up on the family redeeming themselves, and is prepared to destroy the entire family, unless Plot Device Y is resolved, or she is in possession of the knowledge of the bomb and the ability to defuse it, but for Reason Z cannot. In a startling coincidence (since we've determined the culprit has no knowledge of the bomb) the culprit choses that conference to excute their murder scheme because of Reason A.
But we've also determined that Beatrice is aware of the culprit's schemes, since she must be in some position below the command of the culprit. So why does she choose to kill everyone herself? If she know that most, if not all of the family is going to die, then why does she choose to bother with the bomb? It's redundant, like my original idea that it was the culprit both scheming the murders and setting us up the bomb.
This is where my logic has brought me.
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Old 2010-06-16, 19:06   Link #11137
Jan-Poo
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But again... the explosion is by far a superior "murder plan" than anything that implies knives, guns or any kind of weapon.

So doing a massacre before the explosion not only is not necessary it also threatens to mess up the better plan.
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Old 2010-06-16, 19:09   Link #11138
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But again... the explosion is by far a superior "murder plan" than anything that implies knives, guns or any kind of weapon.

So doing a massacre before the explosion not only is not necessary it also threatens to mess up the better plan.
I understand that. But we still get murders that happen before endgame in every Episode. So unless all of the gameboards' narrations are false, and that it's just a story overwriting a survival story in which the Ushiromiya family must survive on an island that is falling to pieces in the middle of a raging storm, which would allow for an earlier bomb detonation time, there is someone who is going along murdering people.
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Old 2010-06-16, 19:12   Link #11139
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think you are following me Judoh. In this case the explosion wouldn't be a "clean up" it would be the mean to kill itself.

That means he's not killing people by his hands and there is no ritual serial murder. there's just a huge explosion and nothing else.
I get it but I don't like it. This just screams off island culprit to me. It just makes things seem entirely pointless.

If this is true I don't get why we need to have all the "backstory to the point of a confession" in episode 7. It would just be weird.
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Old 2010-06-16, 19:22   Link #11140
Jan-Poo
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I have explained the alternatives:

1) the culprit knows about the explosion but he's mad.

2) the culprit doesn't know about the explosion.


This way you can still have your serial murder in the island. However the idea that a perfectly rational person decides to complicate an already perfect plan doesn't make any sense, unless I'm missing something.
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