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 AnimeSuki Forum [Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

 2010-06-12, 19:12 Link #2041 Raiza Sunozaki Sorcerer of Uncertainty   Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada! ... It's ALWAYS Canada... Age: 21 And for four coins, it goes something like this: Spoiler for answer:
 2010-06-12, 19:32 Link #2042 Renall BUY MY BOOK!!!     Join Date: May 2009 Wonder if there were any matchstick puzzles in Maria's little book. Those things are the height of groaner solutions. Mostly because solutions depend on breaking (or in one case I loved, lighting) the matches. There are still a few good ones where you can't break or ignite them, like the one where you have three matchsticks and need to move two to make six. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error
Raiza Sunozaki
Sorcerer of Uncertainty

Join Date: Nov 2009
Age: 21
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Renall Wonder if there were any matchstick puzzles in Maria's little book. Those things are the height of groaner solutions. Mostly because solutions depend on breaking (or in one case I loved, lighting) the matches. There are still a few good ones where you can't break or ignite them, like the one where you have three matchsticks and need to move two to make six.
Simple.
Three matchsticks: | | |

 2010-06-12, 20:03 Link #2044 Jan-Poo 別にいいけど     Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error That's not the kind of riddle that I favor. One could say that this solution is as good as: * Since nothing at all is specified about what "make six" means, and you need to come up with the idea by yourself, then "making six segments from a common center" should be as good as "making the roman number six". __________________
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor

Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo Since nothing at all is specified about what "make six" means, and you need to come up with the idea by yourself, then "making six segments from a common center" should be as good as "making the roman number six".
You could also make

which is the Kanji for six.
Just have the top stick overlap the bottom two and it could easily resemble it.

 2010-06-16, 23:42 Link #2046 LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments Entertaining a little pet theory here... No corpses have appeared that do not belong to introduced characters. Beatrice-2 was introduced in EP3. Beatrice-2 is confirmed to have died before the opening of the games. Therefore, it is permitted for Beatrice's corpse to have appeared at any time in all games. Beatrice is hinted to be the child of Kinzo, and could have inherited his rare polydactyly. Unlike Kinzo's corpse, there is a reason for someone (Kinzo) to keep Beatrice's corpse around on the island for a long period of time. Due to burn damage, the gender and time of death of "Kinzo's" corpse has never been determined. I think you can see where I'm going with this. There are, however, two obstacles. EP1: The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. Does this corpse count as unidentified when half the survivors know for certain who it is? EP6: I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins’ room. Erika said that "since Kinzo is confirmed not to exist, please exclude him." Beatrice-2 is confirmed not to exist. Is she excluded too? Are there other ways for the corpse to avoid being located? __________________ "Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LyricalAura Entertaining a little pet theory here... No corpses have appeared that do not belong to introduced characters. Beatrice-2 was introduced in EP3. Beatrice-2 is confirmed to have died before the opening of the games. Therefore, it is permitted for Beatrice's corpse to have appeared at any time in all games. Beatrice is hinted to be the child of Kinzo, and could have inherited his rare polydactyly. Unlike Kinzo's corpse, there is a reason for someone (Kinzo) to keep Beatrice's corpse around on the island for a long period of time. Due to burn damage, the gender and time of death of "Kinzo's" corpse has never been determined. I think you can see where I'm going with this. There are, however, two obstacles. EP1: The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. Does this corpse count as unidentified when half the survivors know for certain who it is? EP6: I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins’ room. Erika said that "since Kinzo is confirmed not to exist, please exclude him." Beatrice-2 is confirmed not to exist. Is she excluded too? Are there other ways for the corpse to avoid being located?
Here is an interesting thought about that too. Eirka was introduced; is it possible her corpse appeared in the story earlier? Like it was actually Erika's corpse instead of Shannon's in ep1?
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Laserworm Here is an interesting thought about that too. Eirka was introduced; is it possible her corpse appeared in the story earlier? Like it was actually Erika's corpse instead of Shannon's in ep1?

Furudo Erika has no influence in the games before now.

...and she probably doesn't exist in Chiru either.

Judoh
Mystery buff

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Laserworm Here is an interesting thought about that too. Eirka was introduced; is it possible her corpse appeared in the story earlier? Like it was actually Erika's corpse instead of Shannon's in ep1?
Only one problem with that

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

Now can her corpse influence the beato's games if we interpet the red as saying a living Erika influencing the games? Maybe, but I don't think it's very likely.

Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Judoh Only one problem with that Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Now can her corpse influence the game if we interpet the red as saying a living Erika influencing the games? Maybe, but I don't think it's very likely.
I am completely convinced theorizing based on Erika is barking up the wrong tree, whether she's real or not in Chiru.

(although, I've stated several times I don't believe Erika is a physical person on the island even during Episodes 5 and 6, and I really don't see how anyone who's read her TIP in 6, or read Chapter 18 of Episode 6, can really substantiate her existence...)

Judoh
Mystery buff

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LyricalAura EP1: The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. Does this corpse count as unidentified when half the survivors know for certain who it is?
I think this red only refers to Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa's murders (as well as the people Beato referred to) Kinzo and your Beatrice may be special cases.

Renall

Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LyricalAura EP6: I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins’ room. Erika said that "since Kinzo is confirmed not to exist, please exclude him." Beatrice-2 is confirmed not to exist. Is she excluded too? Are there other ways for the corpse to avoid being located?
Erika is explicitly asking about bodies there, however it isn't clear just whose bodies. She may only be referring to the eighteen people who appear in the story and are relevant. If some fisherman died on Rokkenjima in 1857, I don't think she means to force Battler to state his bones are under the bed in there.

Then again, we aren't totally sure what Battler actually acknowledges there.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error

Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Judoh Only one problem with that Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Now can her corpse influence the beato's games if we interpet the red as saying a living Erika influencing the games? Maybe, but I don't think it's very likely.
But we've been shown 'doesn't exist' means that they are dead and just a corpse. Using her corpse just makes things more solid for ep1, (and makes it possible for someone besides Kanon) Even if we don't reason that Shannon used Erika's corpse, we can come say that she used other things, or that she didn't really die, so it doesn't change things. And if Erika's corpse was used, it actually gives her a real purpose for appearing in Umineko actually.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Laserworm But we've been shown 'doesn't exist' means that they are dead and just a corpse. Using her corpse just makes things more solid for ep1, (and makes it possible for someone besides Kanon) Even if we don't reason that Shannon used Erika's corpse, we can come say that she used other things, or that she didn't really die, so it doesn't change things. And if Erika's corpse was used, it actually gives her a real purpose for appearing in Umineko actually.
Knox's 8th. There was no foreshadowing that Erika Furudo's corpse was used in Episodes 1-4, and that the red means anything more than "Erika Furudo never existed in any physical form, including a corpse" on the island in the first four games. The series is solvable with Games 1-4. Therefore, it would stand to reason that someone introduced in the 5th Game cannot be involved!

Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen Knox's 8th. There was no foreshadowing that Erika Furudo's corpse was used in Episodes 1-4, and that the red means anything more than "Erika Furudo never existed in any physical form, including a corpse" on the island in the first four games. The series is solvable with Games 1-4. Therefore, it would stand to reason that someone introduced in the 5th Game cannot be involved!
Erika's corpse wouldn't be nessary to solve it, as I said before it was possible Shannon could have used anything. Erika's corpse just makes it more solid. It is not nessary for us to know about Erika's corpse to be able to reason that Shannon faked her death. And imo solvable means we can figure out the true answer, it doesn't mean that we can get everything 100% right, it just means we can get the core answer
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Raiza Sunozaki
Sorcerer of Uncertainty

Join Date: Nov 2009
Age: 21
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Laserworm Erika's corpse wouldn't be nessary to solve it, as I said before it was possible Shannon could have used anything. Erika's corpse just makes it more solid. It is not nessary for us to know about Erika's corpse to be able to reason that Shannon faked her death. And imo solvable means we can figure out the true answer, it doesn't mean that we can get everything 100% right, it just means we can get the core answer
Conversely, to me it does.
My interpretation is that you don't need anything from Episode 5 onward to solve everything from Episodes 1-4, it only helps. Extra hints, if you will. Ryuukishi said that if you completely understood Episodes 1-4 when Episode 5 came out, you would be able to predict the procession of murders or faked murders after Hideyoshi. And I think he said something similar about Episode 6.
Now I undestand this doesn't absolutely indicate that predicting death order means completely understanding the Episode, but to me it at least gives some heavy support for the concept. I understand Umineko like this: once you grasp completely the logic of Episode 1-4, you can proceed through Episodes 5 and 6, and following Episodes, completely understanding everything. What's happening during fantasy scenes, what certain impossibilites represent, and how the murder or fake murder happen.
Then again, that is my interpretation.

 2010-06-17, 11:12 Link #2057 Renall BUY MY BOOK!!!     Join Date: May 2009 We're also assuming Furudo Erika has a corpse that ever exists on Rokkenjima. She may well exist as a character without ever producing a body. If no such person ever existed, or a Furudo Erika did exist but she's at the bottom of the ocean somewhere ever since she drowned, there's not only nothing to use in the episodes where she didn't exist, there's nothing to use in the ones where she did. The mere fact that Erika Doesn't Exist is possible means we can't even be sure there is a corpse. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Renall We're also assuming Furudo Erika has a corpse that ever exists on Rokkenjima. She may well exist as a character without ever producing a body. If no such person ever existed, or a Furudo Erika did exist but she's at the bottom of the ocean somewhere ever since she drowned, there's not only nothing to use in the episodes where she didn't exist, there's nothing to use in the ones where she did. The mere fact that Erika Doesn't Exist is possible means we can't even be sure there is a corpse.
what about the reds that state where 'Erika' is. Erika was with Nanjo the whole time.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Jan-Poo

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
There's plenty of those reds, the most notable is:

Quote:
 Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual persons.
Despite Kanon, whose existence has never been confirmed outside the games, whose name isn't even a real name and that was never heard of by the only reliable perspective (Battler) before the games. Erika's existence is confirmed from the 1998 perspective.

Therefore it's a lot harder to explain that "actual person" if the "Erika" in the game is not Erika Furudo.

However at this point there is really nothing that you can do with reds, you just need to come up with a ridiculous loophole to get around them and it's done. Regardless of your favored theory there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid a ridiculous loophole.
__________________

Renall

Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Laserworm what about the reds that state where 'Erika' is. Erika was with Nanjo the whole time.
Erika can be a character, or you can buy the "Erika Ball" thing. The same logic applies to reds dealing with Kanon (if nothing else, it's disingenuous to refer to him as "he" in red) There was, allegedly, a person by that name. We don't know if the character Furudo Erika is the person Furudo Erika, and nobody in 1998 does either.

There has to be a loophole, as Jan-Poo said. Something has to give somewhere for anything to remain internally consistent. There will be an "unfair" twisting of the red. There's no other means of reconciliation.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error