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Old 2010-06-17, 13:18   Link #11221
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler is Beatrice. When Bern said Beato wasn't just one woman, she was referring to the woman part!
Spoiler for Sexual innuendo:
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Old 2010-06-17, 13:32   Link #11222
Judoh
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Natsuhi, upon picking up the line in Episode 5, comments on how the voice sounded like it could be a female's. This leads me to think of Jessica, as she is sort of the "tomboy." I don't think it was Battler's, simply because he is too masculine.
She didn't say it sounded like a female voice. She said she couldn't rule out the possibility it was a female since the person sounded young. What's more important is that the caller switched between how he said "I" in japanese. He says "ore" in one call and watashi (I think) in another. So one of the callers should be George (since he always uses ore) the other caller could be Battler or Rudolf.
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Old 2010-06-17, 13:36   Link #11223
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it was "ore" (what Battler always uses) and "boku" (what Kanon and George always use)
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Old 2010-06-17, 13:39   Link #11224
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
it was "ore" (what Battler always uses) and "boku" (what Kanon and George always use)
Thanks I got them mixed up. I think Rudolf uses Ore too though doesn't he?
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Old 2010-06-17, 13:56   Link #11225
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Thanks I got them mixed up. I think Rudolf uses Ore too though doesn't he?
I don't remember specifically but I think it's likely based on his personality and speech patterns.
I forget what Hideyoshi uses... (or Krauss for that matter)
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Old 2010-06-17, 14:09   Link #11226
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It is said that Jessica mostly speaks like a guy, so she might sound like a man on the telephone. Does she then talk with 'ore' as well, as I'm under the impression that is kind of manly/rude manner of speech. And Natsuhi is always so strict about it anyways, maybe to her the first thought of anyone speaking like a man is a man. It is probably 'watashi' for Jessica though...
But is it hinted anywhere that someone could alter his voice or practically fake someone else? Over the telephone it is probably easier, more if there is some noise mixed in. Telephones probably didn't have the greatest quality then. And some peculiar discussion was through telephones, EP4 being the worst of course.
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Old 2010-06-17, 14:26   Link #11227
Judoh
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Jessica sounds like a guy yeah. For example when she's saying shut up she'd say "uruse" instead of "urusai". It's not about what she addresses herself with that makes her sound that way.
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Old 2010-06-17, 14:38   Link #11228
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Yeah, Jessica uses "watashi", not "ore" - that pronoun can usually be interpreted as asserting the speaker's manliness . It's pretty rare for a woman to use "ore", even if she talks rudely (which generally makes you sound like a guy in Japan - and in a lot of other countries, come to think of it - no matter what your intent).
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:08   Link #11229
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't know if ryukishi just doesn't know much about medical practice, or if the goal is to write Nanjo exactly like an incompetent and poorly-researched mystery novel doctor. Either way, his practice and manner are absurdly improper, especially with respect to the two living patients he's had in the games.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I always kind of got the sense from Nanjo Jr. that he was pretty bitter toward his dad, and not just because he got killed. It could be that the payoff money (which Jr. had the moral fortitude to refuse) convinced him his father was up to something crooked. But maybe he just was glad his dad wasn't around anymore to screw up the family practice.

Would you trust him to be your doctor?
I would avoid falling asleep anywhere within ten meters of the gentleman, to be honest.

Actually, considering that the best example of a doctor I remember from Japanese fiction that actually reaches me is Doctor Blackjack, who's crowning phrase is "We shall make an artificial anus!", well... It makes me think that either Japanese fiction writers generally lack medical knowledge and don't consider it worth researching seriously because it's too hard, or that medicine itself in Japan is not very much up to par in reality, and I heard various opinions that suggest the latter might be true. That's something I'd rather hear a native with experience on both shores of the Pacific confirm or deny. Either way we don't really know, so Nanjo will have to go unpunished for the moment.

But that Nanjo Jr. is actually not terribly fond of his father might very well be true. You generally don't approve of people which present you with temptation even if that temptation improves you in the end by you not giving in to it. Even if he doesn't explicitly blame his father for that temptation, this is where it came from.
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:10   Link #11230
Jan-Poo
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That I know of only Battler and Rudolf use "Ore" among the persons that are on Rokkenjima.
Then outside that there's also Juuza.

However what is really important imho is that "boku". The fact that initially the man from 19 years before used "ore" could be part of the disguise. I think we can be almost certain that this person doesn't want to make her identity be known, so using a different way to speak is certainly a good idea.

So the problem is that if this person is used to say "ore", then I can't really imagine why suddenly uses "boku". Even if we suppose that this person original plan was to use "boku" for this character, he'd better keep using "ore" for consistence sake. There's no point in using "boku" after you have already used "ore" this would just make you look suspicious.

So it's a lot more probable that the slip happened later (provided it is a slip), which means that this person is most probably used to use "boku".

Clearly Kanon is a major suspect here, and not just for this reason alone.
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:16   Link #11231
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So the problem is that if this person is used to say "ore", then I can't really imagine why suddenly uses "boku". Even if we suppose that this person original plan was to use "boku" for this character, he'd better keep using "ore" for consistence sake. There's no point in using "boku" after you have already used "ore" this would just make you look suspicious.

So it's a lot more probable that the slip happened later (provided it is a slip), which means that this person is most probably used to use "boku".

Clearly Kanon is a major suspect here, and not just for this reason alone.
I'd have to agree... it seems more like there was only one person although someone did mention that it felt like the man was calling from an outside line at first then from an inside line. I forgot what was up with that.

Instead though, I'd pin it on George because he already seems to have an interest in Natsuhi's room that was shown clearly in EP2. It *may* be about the mirror... it may have been something else...

(Was he was investigating the existence of the explosion?)
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:24   Link #11232
Oliver
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Do we even know that the "baby from 19 years ago" is even the second Battler mentioned by Beatrice in Episode 4? I do not recall that relation being made explicitly in the game.
It wasn't and we don't. Indeed, like you said, it does make sense, but I'm not certain Natsuhi's extra baby actually existed at all. Only statements concerning him (or her) actually come from Episode 5, which is outside the 'minimum required information' boundary that Ryukishi explicitly defined -- that ends with Episode 4 -- and they do not sit very well with the numerous stories regarding the 'servant that suffered for disparaging Beatrice by falling off the stairs' -- nor do they match the story of Beatrice-2's death.

And as far as I can see the existence of that baby is immediately forgotten in Ep6.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is not a 100% correspondence between a metacharacter and the original it is based upon. For the most part any red that can be stated for one can be stated for the other but... MetaBattler was not born from Asumu, he was born from the author that created him.
This sort of works, but it actually destroys useful information, because then Meta-Battler is always the brother of ANGE-Beatrice, as she was also 'born from the author', being a meta-character present in there when he says she is his sister. That immediately widens the circle of Battler's possible parents. It may be the correct interpretation because it denies the Other Battler successfully, but if another one that does so exists, I think it would be preferable.

Though, if the meta-characters aren't 'born' but 'created' instead, that might actually fit smoothly, then the sister-brother relationship is inherited from their physical prototypes... And to be fair, just who the phrase "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice" really refers to in that exchange?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Granted that I think it's a lot more probable that the child from 19 years before is Beatrice, since there is a chance that Battler might be one year older, then it's easier to explain this way how he can be Beatrice2's son.
I don't think there's any way for Battler to be one year older without Asumu's knowing cooperation, but seeing as she is an exclusively off-screen existence, there's no reason why she could not have offered it...
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:29   Link #11233
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Instead though, I'd pin it on George because he already seems to have an interest in Natsuhi's room that was shown clearly in EP2. It *may* be about the mirror... it may have been something else...
Natsuhi's diaries, I expect.

Alternatively, what he's really looking for is the family photo album, because if one exists, that's where it would be. Mothers like showing other people their children's embarrassing baby pictures. Children generally avoid being anywhere close to the album and fathers don't care that much. That Is The Rule.

There's a lot of things that could be discovered from that photo album that we don't know and the characters may not remember. For example the very likely fact that Jessica was a flat-chested loli in childhood and only dyed her hair recently... that is, once she grew a worthy bust, which was the other component of Battler's declared ideal...
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:33   Link #11234
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We don't need that, we know already:

Quote:
Yo, Jessica! What's this now! You're kidding me, you look like a woman now! What're these, boobs? Even you managed to get a chest! Ihihi, let me rub 'em, let me~!
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:46   Link #11235
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We don't need that, we know already:
We do, but I was mostly referring to the hair color. While there is an argument that Jessica is just drawn blonde, I'm not sure it's a very good one -- every other character has a realistic hair color for a native Japanese within reasonable artistic boundaries, but for Jessica those boundaries would be unnaturally relaxed. The exceptions are Krauss (who is old enough to be simply partially but not fully greying) and the Sumaderas together with Amakusa (who may all be genetically depigmented for one reason or another). But Jessica is at the age where she can get away with hair dye and 80s is the era when it's coming into fashion.

Also, if a confirmation of the pony theory exists on the island, that photo album is also the most likely place to look for it.

P.S. Forgot Rosa, who is a bit lighter than she really should be -- but she's still within the artistic spectrum.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:02   Link #11236
Jan-Poo
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well then what about Battler's and Ange's bright red hair?

If you ask me, the only one who can be said to have realistic hair colors (for japanese people) are Kinzo, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, Rudolf, George, Hideyoshi and Gohda.

everyone else in the island either dyed his hair or is just drawn that way.


EDIT:

Actually, if Jessica dyed his hairs I think Battler would have noticed. It would be too strange if he didn't make even the slightest mention after seeing her after 6 years with such bright blonde hairs.

I am veeery doubtful that Jessica used to dye her hair at 12. She was too young, it was 1980 and Japan wasn't ready yet to see kids that young with blonde hairs. Natsuhi would never allow that. The school would probably not allow that.

So no, I'm 99% sure she has black hair in reality.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:23   Link #11237
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So no, I'm 99% sure she has black hair in reality.
I would agree wholeheartedly if hair colour was actually never mentioned in the text itself. But it is.

Well, it's not like it's a point worth seriously arguing over anyway.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:40   Link #11238
Oliver
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Spoiler for Sexual innuendo:
...you know, I think I just found Battler...

P.S.: More details.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:44   Link #11239
Renall
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But that Nanjo Jr. is actually not terribly fond of his father might very well be true. You generally don't approve of people which present you with temptation even if that temptation improves you in the end by you not giving in to it. Even if he doesn't explicitly blame his father for that temptation, this is where it came from.
We are, of course, assuming the "senders" of the payoff letters had any idea that those letters were sent to their relatives, or that they had any idea about the money. It's clear that someone does, but who... that's another matter.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:52   Link #11240
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I would agree wholeheartedly if hair colour was actually never mentioned in the text itself. But it is.

Well, it's not like it's a point worth seriously arguing over anyway.
Maybe Krauss is actually Beatrice 1#'s daughter. That would explain the blonde hair XD.
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