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Old 2010-06-17, 19:34   Link #2061
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
what about the reds that state where 'Erika' is. Erika was with Nanjo the whole time.
...alright, I guess it's time for me to posit my theory clearly.

Let's get started.

It is proclaimed that Rokkenjima is a closed circle on many an occasion. No one should be able to influence the game. Whether or not there ever was a "pleasure boat," for someone to wash up completely alive is absurd in and of itself. Ryuukishi has no reason to be able to justify breaking the typhoon barrier except "Bernkastel put her on the board." That in and of itself makes her different from every other human. Furthermore, Erika is the most absurd sort of character. She's a complete Mary Sue, able to boss around every character on the island and has all the authority. No human would EVER act like Erika. Not only that, but she makes several references to meta characters like her master outside of fantasy scenes, and even calls Battler "a mere piece."

Next, the justification. This mostly comes from Episode Six.

During her final battle with Beatrice, Erika has a very interesting internal monologue. She says, the only time we ever get inside her head,

"I am...the Witch of Truth, Erika Furudo. The witch of truth...is a witch...who can endure the truth. I think I can...finally...face the truth...about myself."

Immediately afterwards, she proclaims in red, Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!! Battler and Beatrice reply, "We're sorry, but even if we welcome you, it's seventeen people." Erika is killed. Her existence has been denied. While she is the theoretical concept of the "18th Person," she doesn't actually exist. She isn't there.

Don't believe me yet? Check the TIPS.

Erika's EXECUTE TIP:

"Fell from a pleasure boat and is currently missing. Due to the Rokkenjima Explosion Accident that occurred shortly after, her accident went completely forgotten. Her family says that she might have drifted to Rokkenjima and gotten involved with that accident, but no evidence suggesting she was ever on the island could be found. Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted to Rokkenjima and add her in as part of the Illusion of the Witch."

Finally, it makes thematic sense. Erika's purpose thusfar has been to show the bias of the mystery side. Erika's entire theory in Episode 5 was a lie based in mystery, not fantasy. If Episodes 1-4 dealt with the lies perpetrated by fantasy, then Erika Furudo is the lie of mystery. An ubermensch detective, superior to humans, whose only purpose is to "solve the mystery."

As for the reds?

They're all explained with one little proclamation, made during Erika's first scene.

I proclaim that Erika Furudo is the detective!

Erika Furudo is the title of the piece Bernkastel chooses as the detective! For example, in Episode Five, "Erika" is Eva Ushiromiya!
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:01   Link #2062
Jan-Poo
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Battler is the detective in Ep1-4

The red you mention doesn't really explain anything, you just interpret it your own way. Its relevance for your cause is zero.
That red as in the case of Battler just means what it means.
There's no reason to think the implication of that red statement should be different than in the case of Battler.
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:09   Link #2063
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Battler is the detective in Ep1-4

The red you mention doesn't really explain anything, you just interpret it your own way. Its relevance for your cause is zero.
That red as in the case of Battler just means what it means.
There's no reason to think the implication of that red statement should be different than in the case of Battler.
Your point is completely irrelevant. It doesn't MATTER that Battler was the detective in games 1-4. If Erika Furudo is not a physical body in the game, then that statement can be taken as "detective ---> erika" rather than "erika = detective."

...and anyway, your "Battler is the detective in Ep. 1-4" is never proclaimed in red. The exact red statement was "Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!" Don't proclaim red that isn't ever stated exactly as such ingame.
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:18   Link #2064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
..
Erika Furudo is the title of the piece Bernkastel chooses as the detective! For example, in Episode Five, "Erika" is Eva Ushiromiya!
Erika can't be Ushiromiya Eva (I think I could say it in red, but I will leave it in blue just in case, since I don't like using red unless it was actually used in the game)

The reason why Erika can't be Eva.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

If only those characters are outside the mansion, Erika should have to be one of those people in that group. Since 'Erika' can't be in two places at once. More proof.

From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse. Erika was with Nanjo starting at 1:00AM. In the guesthouse.

At 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in the corridor on the second floor of the mansion. The rest of them were in the dining hall on the first floor.
Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...!
Now you can try and say that 'the rest' allows Eva to be outside of the dinning room and therefore in the guesthouse. But!

During the short break at 1:00 AM, the first two to leave the dining hall were Rosa and Eva. Until Eva returned, everyone in the dining hall remained there. After seeing Rosa off, Eva went to the waiting room and sealed it. Of course, she did not enter the room at all at this time. This proves that Eva was in the dinning room until 1AM. Which we know Nanjo is in the guesthouse at this time, and Erika joins him, right at 1AM. Eva can't be in two places at once therefore I proclaim.

Erika can not be Ushiromiya Eva.
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:27   Link #2065
Shiro Kaisen
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Eh, I remember some theorycraft that made it possible, but I don't remember offhand. It isn't important to the point I was making; that's a whole other battle. That blue was to illustrate my point.

You accept my premise as viable, though? That was all I intended to start at the moment.
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Old 2010-06-17, 21:47   Link #2066
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Your point is completely irrelevant. It doesn't MATTER that Battler was the detective in games 1-4. If Erika Furudo is not a physical body in the game, then that statement can be taken as "detective ---> erika" rather than "erika = detective."
You want to prove your point by assuming your point?

It doesn't work that way. You have shown that red as a way to prove your point, but it actually doesn't prove anything. It proves your point only if you already assumed your point is true, but then it's redundant.
Who cares if "it can be taken" in a certain way? You are already taking "in a certain way" a tons of reds. But that is a way to interpret reds and not a way to prove your point with reds. You have no red backing your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
...and anyway, your "Battler is the detective in Ep. 1-4" is never proclaimed in red. The exact red statement was "Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!" Don't proclaim red that isn't ever stated exactly as such ingame.
If I was allowed to report a red only in the way it's exactly written in the game then I could only use japanese, because there's no such a thing as an official english translation.

Therefore as long as the meaning of the original is intact I feel entitled to write it the way I want.
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Old 2010-06-17, 22:04   Link #2067
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You want to prove your point by assuming your point?

It doesn't work that way. You have shown that red as a way to prove your point, but it actually doesn't prove anything. It proves your point only if you already assumed your point is true, but then it's redundant.
Who cares if "it can be taken" in a certain way? You are already taking "in a certain way" a tons of reds. But that is a way to interpret reds and not a way to prove your point with reds. You have no red backing your theory.
...okay, now you're just being silly.

My premise is that "Erika doesn't exist because she was killed when Battler denied the existence of the 18th Person."

My interpretation of that red is nothing more than everyone else's interpretation of reds to allow Shkanon to be true, ie "person = personality."

Quote:

If I was allowed to report a red only in the way it's exactly written in the game then I could only use japanese, because there's no such a thing as an official english translation.

Therefore as long as the meaning of the original is intact I feel entitled to write it the way I want.
Yeeeeeeeeah NO.

In Umineko, you absolutely cannot twist the wording of ANYTHING. One difference in wording can be the difference between a theory being possible and being impossible.

There is a difference between "a translation of a red text" and "my own red text based on my reasoning and interpretation of established facts." One of these did NOT come from the author. Whether it's true or not, you cannot and must not say it in red. Because we lack that ability. The only one who can is the author. As long as a translation of red is literal and adheres to the author's words, then they are valid. But you can't just throw your own red around.
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Old 2010-06-17, 22:04   Link #2068
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Battler is the detective in Ep1-4
I'm still not completely convinced of this. Granted there is that "until now" red. Buuuuut... I think you can't rule out that someone else could be the detective if you can prove Battler's perspective is false in any of the episodes.

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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
But you can't just throw your own red around.
you throw around out of game reds all the time. So why is it wrong just now?
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Old 2010-06-17, 22:06   Link #2069
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm still not completely convinced of this. Granted there is that "until now" red. Buuuuut... I think you can't rule out that someone else could be the detective if you can prove Battler's perspective is false in any of the episodes.
I don't like the idea that Battler wasn't the detective for EP 1-4. If the entire game can really be solved with EP 1-4 alone then a reliable viewpoint is needed. That's why in EP 5 and 6 we have a lesser trustworthy viewpoint.
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Old 2010-06-17, 22:09   Link #2070
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm still not completely convinced of this. Granted there is that "until now" red. Buuuuut... I think you can't rule out that someone else could be the detective if you can prove Battler's perspective is false in any of the episodes.



you throw around out of game reds all the time. So why is it wrong just now?
Eh...you're right. But that's a bad habit I'm gonna quit. Sorry 'bout that.
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Old 2010-06-18, 02:28   Link #2071
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
There is a difference between "a translation of a red text" and "my own red text based on my reasoning and interpretation of established facts." One of these did NOT come from the author. Whether it's true or not, you cannot and must not say it in red. Because we lack that ability. The only one who can is the author. As long as a translation of red is literal and adheres to the author's words, then they are valid. But you can't just throw your own red around.
By the way, this is an aside. Going by the way the game has developed until now... I bet you once we know the truth of the game we will be able to quote new reds and new golds. 8)

For example, we can say now that there was a large explosion leading to a large geological event that changed the shape of the island. In red.

But this is because Ryukishi gave us the answer already.

Although I guess we shouldn't go around quoting new reds until the game is over to avoid confusion of whether Ryukishi wrote it or it's something we just wrote...
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Old 2010-06-18, 07:37   Link #2072
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
...okay, now you're just being silly.

My premise is that "Erika doesn't exist because she was killed when Battler denied the existence of the 18th Person."

My interpretation of that red is nothing more than everyone else's interpretation of reds to allow Shkanon to be true, ie "person = personality."

That's not how you said it

Quote:
As for the reds?

They're all explained with one little proclamation, made during Erika's first scene.

I proclaim that Erika Furudo is the detective!
The way you put it, it seems like you claim that the red explains all the other reds.
But that's not quite right. It's your interpretation that explains the reds.

you don't even need to bring up that "erika is detective" red, most ghosterika theorists do without it quite fine.


About the out of games red truths is the issue solved? Because I think it is a widely spread habit to use them provided we have a certainty of their validity and it's just too bothersome to copy and paste reds from the game every single time.
I don't get why we should start changing this now and why we should start from me.

I think Kylon made a good point, and as long as there isn't some authority to force me to write reds exactly as witch hunt wrote them or a general wide consensus that I should, I'll keep doing it as I always did.
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Old 2010-06-18, 18:24   Link #2073
Shiro Kaisen
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...okay, can we please get off the out-of-game reds topic? I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought that up, can we move on? My particular problem was that you were using an out of game red and then using its wording to debunk my reasoning. You can't do that. Theoretically, if that WERE proclaimed ingame, "Battler" could be a title of the detective in 1-4. But since we know that Battler exists, as we've been inside his head while he holds an objective viewpoint, it wouldn't apply that way. With Erika, we never have.

And anyway. My premise is that she doesn't exist. My method of making it work is that that particular red assigns the title to the Detective.

Can we discuss the theory itself, and not the semantics of the way I wrote it? Because this isn't getting us anywhere. I messed up. I'm sorry. Can we discuss the game now?

Last edited by Shiro Kaisen; 2010-06-18 at 18:34.
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Old 2010-06-18, 19:51   Link #2074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
*snip*
Erika can not be Ushiromiya Eva. Red's state that Erika and Eva are in two different places, and 'Erika' can't be in two places at once. So only Jessica, George, Maria, Nanjo, Goha, Kumasawa, Shannon, Kanon, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi can be Erika.
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Old 2010-06-18, 20:03   Link #2075
Jan-Poo
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Sure.
But, even granting that my red quote wasn't accurate, I think it doesn't change that much for the matter of this discussion. What I wanted to point out is that we have a red claiming that Battler was a detective. It doesn't matter where or when.

So in other words a red claiming that a certain person is or was a detective, doesn't necessarily brings us to think that person is just a title, because, if it did, then both Battler and Erika would be "just titles".

Then you can argue that in Erika's case it does and Battler's case it doesn't, but why bothering? Theories that Erika is just the tittle affixed to some other character can exist regardless of that "Erika is the detective" red.
So maybe you are claiming that this red works as a hint. So Ryukishi in the end could point out: "hey I gave you that hint!", but imho it wouldn't work that good because of the fact Battler was said to be a detective as well.

To put it in another way.
There is a chance that the ghosterika theory is true, and that "Erika" is just the name of the piece (one of the 17) that Metaerika is using, and that Ryuukishi never really thought that "Erika is the detective" should be interpreted as "Erika is a codename for the detective", but simply "Erika (the piece metaerika is controlling) is the detective".

So there isn't really a strong relation between your interpretation of that red and the ghosterika theory.
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Old 2010-06-18, 20:39   Link #2076
Shiro Kaisen
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*snip*

All that red is for is to satisfy the Knox's 8th requirement of "Erika" being used to refer to the piece in question. It really all comes down to the same thing.

Since this is the Dawn thread, I will say that Erika is much, much easier to pinpoint in 6 than 5. We have red denying several peoples' involvement in the crime, and we have several people whom she killed.

Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda were not involved the the murders of the six people, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.

[Request: I am not the rescuer.] Of course not!

So Erika flat out cannot be Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Battler, or Kanon.

This leaves George, Jessica, Shannon, Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa.

My gut says Erika is George. Just 'cause I don't see it being Nanjo, Genji, or Kumasawa...and Jessica is so unbelievably opposed to murder. Shannon is (probably) Beatrice...and I'm pretty sure she's the bomber, not the culprit. And a George culprit theory allows for so many possibilities in earlier episodes. But I can't say anything for sure at the moment. I would say it's fairly likely she is either George or Shannon, though. Any thoughts?
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Old 2010-06-18, 20:48   Link #2077
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If you want consistency across both episodes, she can't be George. George is laying in bed with fake injures during a time when Erika's location is fixed, as is Jessica. Nanjo's location is also fixed during this time (he's with Erika).

So taking into account reds from both episodes, she must be either Shannon, Kumasawa, or Genji. Probably Shannon.
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Old 2010-06-18, 21:04   Link #2078
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post

So Erika flat out cannot be Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Battler, or Kanon.
Actually if you use my theory she can be one of them, but Kanon has to be her fifth victim or it doesn't work.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=10506

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If you want consistency across both episodes, she can't be George. George is laying in bed with fake injures during a time when Erika's location is fixed, as is Jessica. Nanjo's location is also fixed during this time (he's with Erika).

So taking into account reds from both episodes, she must be either Shannon, Kumasawa, or Genji. Probably Shannon.
The red doesn't give her location after those four are discovered. Oliver pointed this out. So we can just ignore all the scenes where she corners Natsuhi since there is no proof she is there.

Plus Genji was one of the other victims in episode 5 was he not?
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Old 2010-06-18, 21:44   Link #2079
Shiro Kaisen
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Actually if you use my theory she can be one of them, but Kanon has to be her fifth victim or it doesn't work.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=10506



The red doesn't give her location after those four are discovered. Oliver pointed this out. So we can just ignore all the scenes where she corners Natsuhi since there is no proof she is there.

Plus Genji was one of the other victims in episode 5 was he not?
PLUS

Ushiromiya Battler returned to the cousins' room at 3:00 AM and fell asleep. After that, until the discovery of the crime, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened in the room!
In other words, it was impossible for Battler to commit murder or damage the corpses.


If we assume that an ubermensch detective with super hearing is absurd, then logically whoever Erika is was inside the cousins' room. Therefore, George could very possibly be Erika.
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Old 2010-06-18, 22:52   Link #2080
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
PLUS

Ushiromiya Battler returned to the cousins' room at 3:00 AM and fell asleep. After that, until the discovery of the crime, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened in the room!
In other words, it was impossible for Battler to commit murder or damage the corpses.


If we assume that an ubermensch detective with super hearing is absurd, then logically whoever Erika is was inside the cousins' room. Therefore, George could very possibly be Erika.
The red does not say why Erika knows this. It just says that it was impossible for Battler to do anything. She could be Nanjo that would make sense and it is possible that she can be Nanjo in ep6 too.
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