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Old 2010-06-17, 17:20   Link #11241
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...you know, I think I just found Battler...

P.S.: More details.
Battler is just a narcissist with multiple personalities. Therefore, he plays games with himself because only he is a good enough opponent for him.

On a serious note, the thing that bothers me is how in Episode 2, Battler's judgment is messed up because of alcohol. What's preventing someone like Gohda (seeing as he prepares the meals) or Rosa (she has some sort of mystery depressant) from administering some sort of drug to Battler? That would seriously mess up his perception of the events. Granted, I don't think Ryukishi would screw with us that way, but it's a thought... is there even an objective narrator at all?
Well, I guess not having a reliable narrator (for Episodes 1-4, I mean) would defeat the purpose of playing the game at all.
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Old 2010-06-17, 17:56   Link #11242
Jan-Poo
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Yeah okay I imagine the scene.

Battler gets so drunk that he falls asleep without even realizing it.
an evildoer takes this chance to do something terrible to Battler.
Battler wakes up, finds himself in front of a mirror and doesn't recognize himself
He screams: "You are the witch Beatrice! Damn you!"

Someone in the shadows rolls on the floor laughing seeing Battler in a dress and a blonde wig talking to his own reflected image without realizing it.
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Old 2010-06-17, 18:11   Link #11243
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Someone in the shadows rolls on the floor laughing seeing Battler in a dress and a blonde wig talking to his own reflected image without realizing it.
Notice that the text cutely mentions no mirrors other than the one in the shrine and the one in Natsuhi's dresser, even though sometimes, looking into a mirror and quipping something on the subject of seeing yourself would be quite a natural thing to do.
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Old 2010-06-17, 20:48   Link #11244
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah okay I imagine the scene.

Battler gets so drunk that he falls asleep without even realizing it.
an evildoer takes this chance to do something terrible to Battler.
Battler wakes up, finds himself in front of a mirror and doesn't recognize himself
He screams: "You are the witch Beatrice! Damn you!"

Someone in the shadows rolls on the floor laughing seeing Battler in a dress and a blonde wig talking to his own reflected image without realizing it.
Oh god. Then, in Episode 2, Meta-Battler makes Rosa eat her own family members' organs.
And then slams his own head into the table. (headdesk, anyone?)

Anyway, I guess there cannot be instances of drunkenness outside of the ones we are familiar with, because there was no foreshadowing as to Gohda poisoning the food.
Rosa's relaxants, however, could still be a possibility; a really strong one could even cause wooziness. Whether or not it is legal for someone like to Rosa to possess a drug as strong as marijuana, novocaine, or morphine is a different story but I'm no doctor.
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Old 2010-06-17, 22:20   Link #11245
Judoh
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There is something I've been wondering about

Battler: Then, just like the heredity of Kinzo's name, there is a possibility that Kanon's name was inherited by someone. You could suppose that Kanon-kun succeeded that name, and that this person attacked them!!

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

Is inheriting Kanon's name after death the same as claiming it? If not doesn't Battler's theory still live?
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Old 2010-06-17, 23:00   Link #11246
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
There is something I've been wondering about

Battler: Then, just like the heredity of Kinzo's name, there is a possibility that Kanon's name was inherited by someone. You could suppose that Kanon-kun succeeded that name, and that this person attacked them!!

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

Is inheriting Kanon's name after death the same as claiming it? If not doesn't Battler's theory still live?
I'm better sure Lambdadelta is saying basically. "Only the original Kanon can claim to be Kanon, not one else can claim to be Kanon."

But this is really not that big of a point since; The three in the servant's room.. might of.. I don't know.... LIED!
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Old 2010-06-18, 00:42   Link #11247
zRyuu
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To do what? The only consequence i can think of is getting George. Wolf and sheep puzzle? 3 sheeps/wolves + George sheep/wolf vs 3 sheeps/wolves.
And Nanjo and Kumasawa's corpses dissappared, are they also part of the plan and they didnt die there? I want to think that they found some kind of evidence left by Kanon to suspect Rosa and coz of that Shannon might have came up with this lies to get George away from Rosa, however im not sure about Kumasawa and Nanjo. They just didnt want to play along? Or were they actually attacked there? Or was it a plan to get Nanjo and Kumasawa away for some reason?
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Old 2010-06-18, 00:43   Link #11248
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Shooting: Several people have simple wounds to the chest or head, notably in ep2 and ep3. These are often staked, but the most plausible explanation is they were shot with a gun and staked later. I'm not convinced the Winchesters are the shooting weapon (except perhaps at the end of ep1 and Hideyoshi/Rudolf/Kyrie in ep3). The existence of a handgun, probably in a single person's possession, always struck me as more likely. This is very likely the weapon that killed Nanjo, which might suggest it belongs to Rudolf, Kyrie, or Hideyoshi. Unless it belonged to Nanjo himself, and was taken from him.
Apparently Natsuhi's gun in episode 1 can be used like a handgun. Well they say pistol, but I think it basically means the same thing.

Quote:
Sawed-off Winchester M-1894

A sawed-off custom rifle manufactured during the golden age of Winchesters. Besides that, it has had its portability and romantic aspect jacked up at the expense of its lethal range. Also, if one can handle the unique lever action, one can also use it for rapid-fire like an average pistol. On top of that, the single-hand reload action using the characteristic lever handle will no doubt be irresistible to Western lovers.

It can employ up to .45 long-colt bullets, just as Kinzo likes it. The number of rounds is 4+1 shots
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Old 2010-06-18, 01:03   Link #11249
Judoh
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Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
To do what? The only consequence i can think of is getting George. Wolf and sheep puzzle? 3 sheeps/wolves + George sheep/wolf vs 3 sheeps/wolves
I'm being completely serious when I say I think Kumasawa and Nanjo were faking. And the others just happened to stumble upon that scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
And Nanjo and Kumasawa's corpses dissappared, are they also part of the plan and they didnt die there? I want to think that they found some kind of evidence left by Kanon to suspect Rosa and coz of that Shannon might have came up with this lies to get George away from Rosa, however im not sure about Kumasawa and Nanjo.
Finding evidence to suspect Rosa is an interesting way to interpret that scene. Most people just say they lied and stop there. There is a contradiction though. Why lie about Kanon being a murder if you want to accuse Rosa?
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Old 2010-06-18, 01:40   Link #11250
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Finding evidence to suspect Rosa is an interesting way to interpret that scene. Most people just say they lied and stop there. There is a contradiction though. Why lie about Kanon being a murder if you want to accuse Rosa?
Kanon is already dead but thought to be alive, accusing him is safe and won't hurt more than his dignity if you know he died. Accusing someone who may be present or listening and has a gun is not safe.

"Present or listening" is interesting in this particular area of the mansion. There has to be a dumbwaiter of some kind, otherwise, feeding Kinzo in his study every day or Beatrice in the VIP room is very hard. (No elevator, and they move wheeled serving carts there!) There is apparently some legit way to listen in on the conversations in the dining hall without being caught too, because Kanon supposedly "reports to Kinzo" on doing that in Ep1.
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Old 2010-06-18, 02:02   Link #11251
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm being completely serious when I say I think Kumasawa and Nanjo were faking. And the others just happened to stumble upon that scene.
You mean in EP2 right? I kinda think so now too. There was some kind of plan to deceive maybe, if Genji, Gouda and Shannon were in on it too. And they meant to play it that way but someone went in there and really killed those two for real; then dragged their bodies away? The bodies go missing which wasn't the original plan. Then Genji finds them later but because he can't expose their fakery he can't tell them how they weren't supposed to be dead... heh. Talk about being caught in your own lie.

So, it's still the work of The Betrayer, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Apparently Natsuhi's gun in episode 1 can be used like a handgun. Well they say pistol, but I think it basically means the same thing.
There's actually a Winchester Repeater in Red Dead Redemption which is one of those Winchesters with lever-action-loading... A sawed off version seems to be more of a rifle an outlaw would conceal in his clothes and nearly shoot with one hand, yah.

Like this: http://www.mcqueenonline.com/m2.jpg

In either case the Winchesters seem to me to be less of his western interest and more of a Western (as in Spaghetti Western) interest. Maybe Kinzo was into cowboys and the Wild, Wild West. Someone should check his VHS collection. 8)


In fact, I was guessing that if someone made an Umineko mod for Red Dead Redemption... with Natsuhi and Krauss as the rough but genuinely nice ranch owner... and Battler as the cowboy... (there's that cowboy image again) it would fit right in.
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Old 2010-06-18, 02:17   Link #11252
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Sorry for the double post, but this is a separate issue. We sorta know a bit more about how the Betrayer works, but as I was talking to a friend about the 10th Twilight Bomber, he said, "So why doesn't someone just barge into the dining room and shoot everyone up, since there's no consequences anyways?"

"Like in EP4." We both said.
"And then they went to Kuwadorian immediately afterwards, as if they were escaping the blast radius/geological event."


And of course, who survived in EP4? Krauss. 8)

Spoiler for Longish EP4 stuff:
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Old 2010-06-18, 03:29   Link #11253
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Apparently Natsuhi's gun in episode 1 can be used like a handgun. Well they say pistol, but I think it basically means the same thing.
That's not why he's assuming a handgun was used.

Winchesters are powerful guns; they don't create very clean-looking bullet wounds, especially when they've been sawed short.

Take Shannon in Ep2, for example. Although she was clearly shot with a gun, the entry wound is small, only a little larger than the stake implanted in it. If she had been shot with the Winchester... she probably wouldn't have much of a face left.

Furthermore, the Winchesters are somewhat difficult weapons to conceal, even taking into account their compact size. A revolver or pistol, however, could easily be hidden under someone's suit jacket or, say, lab coat.

For the murders so far to make sense, someone has to be carrying a gun that's as yet unaccounted for.
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Old 2010-06-18, 04:01   Link #11254
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Furthermore, the Winchesters are somewhat difficult weapons to conceal, even taking into account their compact size. A revolver or pistol, however, could easily be hidden under someone's suit jacket or, say, lab coat.

For the murders so far to make sense, someone has to be carrying a gun that's as yet unaccounted for.
Actually, I'm not sure. I'm not yet done looking up the correct wound profile, but I've found that .45 ACP round is supposed to be very ballistically similar to the .45 Long Colt round that Kinzo's Winchesters are said to be chambered for in TIPS. Here's the wound profile from two different variations:





Notice the lack of expansion and the small entry and exit holes.

According to my forensic pathology textbook, exit wounds are normally bigger in cases where a bullet penetrates an organ that is gel-like or liquid (like the brain) because in this case, the hydrostatic pressure wave expands in a cone, but we somehow never see the exit wounds at all. It is not very likely that Kinzo would have hollowpoints, which would actually tear people's heads off and produce all kinds of damage on exit, and normal jacketed bullets of this type seem to have the effect of a long range 2-3cm thick needle. Just the right size to plug with a stake.

For comparison, see what happens to 12 gauge buckshot:



(images found at http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm )
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Old 2010-06-18, 04:11   Link #11255
Kaisos Erranon
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Hmm. Maybe my perception of the Winchesters causing large wounds is due to their resemblance to a shotgun. Jessica's blinding in Ep3 doesn't help much with this.

Still, the lack of exit wounds is very telling. A weapon of this power would usually go straight through someone's body, correct?

If there's never an exit wound, then wouldn't the murder weapon have to be a much less powerful gun?
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Old 2010-06-18, 04:13   Link #11256
zRyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm being completely serious when I say I think Kumasawa and Nanjo were faking. And the others just happened to stumble upon that scene.



Finding evidence to suspect Rosa is an interesting way to interpret that scene. Most people just say they lied and stop there. There is a contradiction though. Why lie about Kanon being a murder if you want to accuse Rosa?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Finding evidence to suspect Rosa is an interesting way to interpret that scene. Most people just say they lied and stop there. There is a contradiction though. Why lie about Kanon being a murder if you want to accuse Rosa?
I agree its a bit weird, the servants never said anything about what the illusion of Kanon said. Rosa being the one that killed him wasnt mentioned to George or anyone else. I guess they never suspected her, they are furniture after all, they wouldnt accuse the people they serve.
My way to interpret all this part:
-The illusion of Kanon said Rosa killed him = they found evidence to believe Rosa did it or perhaps a letter. Rosa got one in the beginning, it could be that letter. This evidence/letter was found in the kitchen.
-If it was a letter, then it might have been written in it to go to the servant room.
-Now here is the hard part. Nanjo and Kumasawa were not there, however their master keys were in the letter inside a closed room. Gohda, Genji, and Shannon claim to have closed the room before leaving. If Nanjo and Kumasawa had an accident in the servant room, but were faking it, they couldnt have closed it and leave the master keys inside the door. So we cant have a faking or dead Kumasawa and Nanjo without thinking that Gohda, Genji, and Shannon were part of this, unless they somehow managed to leave their master keys and get out of there without them realizing it. What i can tell from the magic interpretation is that Kumasawa and Nanjo both might have suffered an accident in the servant room because of the letter. Kind of the same thing as EP5 1st twilight because their corpses were moved. If we think about this like EP5 then Nanjo and Kumasawa were probably not even there, however there were reasons to believe they died there (blood/part of the clothes?). They were found in the courtyard, right? If no master key is needed to get there then they probably left theirs in the servant room for some reason. Gah its easier to just explain this with Shkanon . I dont know how to keep going with the rest, because there is a magic fight so that means there might have been some kind of struggle.
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Old 2010-06-18, 04:32   Link #11257
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hmm. Maybe my perception of the Winchesters causing large wounds is due to their resemblance to a shotgun. Jessica's blinding in Ep3 doesn't help much with this.

Still, the lack of exit wounds is very telling. A weapon of this power would usually go straight through someone's body, correct?

If there's never an exit wound, then wouldn't the murder weapon have to be a much less powerful gun?
Jessica's blinding did not actually occur due to the bullet, it was due to the powder burn from a shot fired in close vicinity to her eyes, probably 5cm or less. She's very likely not actually blinded. Any firearm fired in this manner would produce a burn like that regardless of power or caliber, and it's severity should depend purely on luck and how fast do you blink. (people actually instinctively blink VERY fast) The role of binding her eyes is mostly to prevent her from rubbing the damaged sclera and cornea and getting dirt on the burn, this kind of injury does not normally result in loss of vision at all.

Looking at those wound profiles, bullet passes intact from 25 to 60 cm depending on type -- so yes, there would be exit wounds. If I'm right and .45 Long Colt is actually longer and contains more powder than .45 ACP, you need to essentially stretch those about a quarter along the distance axis. A close range shot through the heart would have an entry wound, an exit wound, and a bullet embedded in furniture somewhere further down the line. (Sorry, Kanon)

For comparison, here's what a hollowpoint .45 ACP does:



Scale is in inches here. While the wound would be much bigger and more severe, (which is the whole point of a hollowpoint bullet -- expanding early to optimally use hydrostatic pressure and increase stopping power) a bullet remaining inside the body would still be rare.

Regardless, Battler very rarely examines the corpses himself, and pretty much never turns them over to see if there's an exit wound on the other side, so we usually simply don't know if they exist or not.
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Old 2010-06-18, 05:32   Link #11258
Oliver
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A bit more on wound ballistics before I have to leave:
  • Few kinds of firearms can actually destroy half of someone's head. My best candidate would not be one of Kinzo's Winchesters though (which are likely to have jacketed and not hollowpoint .45 Long Colt -- as far as I can find out, a round initially developed to kill horses, more about penetrating deep enough than causing a wide wound) but a shotgun (of whatever calber) loaded with a #00 buckshot round, probably with hardened pellets and fired point blank. Fire from far enough away and the head will stay more or less whole. Such a weapon has not actually been seen on screen in any fashion unless you consider Siesta 00, and may not actually be native to the island. It's also a bit easier to get, because shotguns for hunting purposes are legal in Japan.
  • All cases of staked foreheads show no description of exit wounds, but lack of a description does not mean they aren't there. It's not like anyone actually goes looking for bullet holes in furniture or walls, either. With a jacketed .45 Long Colt, entry wound in skull would be about 2cm wide and exit wound 4-6cm wide. Nobody actually turns a corpse over to see the exit wound, (not even Nanjo) so they may have been killed using one of Kinzo's guns shown.
  • Staked chests and heart do not necessarily require gunshot wounds to go through, but the same .45 Long Colt jacketed would leave a neat 2cm hole on either side, and thus can be used.
  • All of this may be meaningless if anyone around knows the art of handloading rounds, which allows one to do clever things like reduce recoil and penetrating power by reducing the amount of powder, or load jacketed bullets backwards, producing much bigger holes than normal.
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Old 2010-06-18, 07:23   Link #11259
Jan-Poo
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Shotguns apart I think there are still some kind of guns and bullets that are capable of destroying half face of a human being with a single shot, especially if hey are hollow point.

But I'm still very skeptical about the existence of real firearms in Rokkenjima. Even the winchesters could be just toy replica.
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Old 2010-06-18, 08:15   Link #11260
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Shotguns apart I think there are still some kind of guns and bullets that are capable of destroying half face of a human being with a single shot, especially if hey are hollow point.

But I'm still very skeptical about the existence of real firearms in Rokkenjima. Even the winchesters could be just toy replica.
Half face is one thing, half skull is not quite the same. Tearing off the surface skin and facial muscles while leaving the skull itself mostly intact can be accomplished with a wider range of firearms, but then it's not guaranteed to kill.

As for toy replicas, I wonder if Battler was anywhere nearby when Hideyoshi discharged Rosa's gun in Ep3. If he was, toy replica it was not.
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