AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-18, 08:33   Link #11261
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Apparently Natsuhi's gun in episode 1 can be used like a handgun. Well they say pistol, but I think it basically means the same thing.
It's too loud. They heard the gunshot in ep1 very distinctly. The Winchesters are very noisy. If people were getting shot while other people were nearby in the house (ep2, ep3 Nanjo), they'd hear it. And I'm pretty sure you can't silence a sawed-off Winchester. Or conceal it. That's why I posit the existence of another gun, one brought there by someone.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 08:50   Link #11262
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post

As for toy replicas, I wonder if Battler was anywhere nearby when Hideyoshi discharged Rosa's gun in Ep3. If he was, toy replica it was not.
Don't forget we have fake bodies or people playing dead passing under Battler's nose without him even realizing it.

Before EP5 no one really wanted to believe that people just faked their death and Battler fell for it, because it was too ridiculous and needed too many people to be part of the playacting.

Of course the same applies for guns, it is ridiculous to think they are fake. But if the dead bodies are fake, then so can the guns.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 09:06   Link #11263
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Don't forget we have fake bodies or people playing dead passing under Battler's nose without him even realizing it.

Before EP5 no one really wanted to believe that people just faked their death and Battler fell for it, because it was too ridiculous and needed too many people to be part of the playacting.
Well, it's possible that every corpse Battler actually saw was dead at the time he saw it. There are lots of bodies he didn't see, or bodies that might have been faking up to a particular point. By the time he actually spots them, his diagnosis could be entirely reliable.

The one or two times he sees people who might later have been faking it at the time that I can recall, he's prevented from entirely seeing what's going on by circumstance. See also the way Erika doesn't get to see the bodies properly in ep5.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 10:32   Link #11264
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
However, think about it.
If the winchesters aren't real guns or they are loaded with blank bullets, then you can easily explain the scenes on EP1.

Natsuhi fires, but it just makes a big sound, some gunpowder smell and nothing else.

Battler also fires at the shape he sees and which Maria recognizes as Beatrice, however no damage is done.

That I know of there has never been any sign or proof of a fired bullet, nor any sign of bullet holes anywhere beside the bodies. And it was never made clear that the cause of their wounds was a bullet.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 10:37   Link #11265
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However, think about it.
If the winchesters aren't real guns or they are loaded with blank bullets, then you can easily explain the scenes on EP1.

Natsuhi fires, but it just makes a big sound, some gunpowder smell and nothing else.

Battler also fires at the shape he sees and which Maria recognizes as Beatrice, however no damage is done.

That I know of there has never been any sign or proof of a fired bullet, nor any sign of bullet holes anywhere beside the bodies. And it was never made clear that the cause of their wounds was a bullet.
So The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled! was dealing with Natshui gun ? And not the "thing" that killed her ?
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 10:46   Link #11266
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
So The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled! was dealing with Natshui gun ? And not the "thing" that killed her ?
A gun could be raised and the trigger pulled, but it might not have been a Winchester.

For instance, Natsuhi is armed with the Winchester, "Beatrice" has a pistol. Even if Natsuhi did shoot, if it was a blank it probably posed little threat to "Beatrice," who could casually shoot Natsuhi back.

I think ep3 and ep6 heavily suggest the Winchesters are fully-functional guns, or at least can be loaded with real ammunition. The behavior of everyone with respect to them makes no sense if the "fake" faction knows the guns aren't functional or aren't loaded.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 10:47   Link #11267
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well okay, the culprit probably has a real gun... but there' still something that doesn't match...
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 11:05   Link #11268
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
As a side note, blank rounds are visually quite distinct, anyone loading them would notice if they ever saw a real round before.

Though this brings me back to the interesting metaphor of raising a staff in the scene with Natsuhi/Beatrice duel. It's clearly a metaphor for aiming a firearm. Yet Dress-Beatrice, mentioned in the next scene, is never described or drawn with a staff, but Suit-Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice are.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 11:12   Link #11269
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
As a side note, blank rounds are visually quite distinct, anyone loading them would notice if they ever saw a real round before.
They actually have a box of real rounds in ep3, and they're loading the guns with them at the guesthouse. It's possible the guns don't work, but if so then Hideyoshi knows this the instant he tries to discharge Rosa's. They certainly know the ammunition they have is real.

As to the "staff" and Suit/Eva-Beatrice... could "inheriting" the witch's power mean stealing their gun?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 11:51   Link #11270
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
As to the "staff" and Suit/Eva-Beatrice... could "inheriting" the witch's power mean stealing their gun?
If we assume that Jan-Poo's hypothesis that there is only one real gun is true and combine it with this hypothesis of yours that it actually is the power of the witch...

It's actually been written already. Viktor Pelevin, "Fuhrer's Pipe". (Or whatever the official translation of the story would be -- I'm not sure one exists.) In that half-joke/half-scifi short story, Soviet Union is controlled from an underground bunker, in which Stalin's Pipe is not actually a smoking implement that Stalin is normally depicted with, but a weapon, the absolutely only weapon in this completely enclosed environment, a blowgun with poisonous needles. Whoever possesses the Stalin's Pipe is in control of the closed environment since he can kill anyone who opposes him inside it and there's no way in or out. The closed environment is actually treated by everyone else as a black box government control centre from which orders to be followed without question emerge, so they by extension are in control of the country itself, even if they don't care about it or see the results of their orders.

More to the point, I suspect that the transfer of an actual physical weapon from one Beatrice to another may indeed occur in some circumstances, in particular Ep3. But whether it's "stealing" or "being given" or "taking from a dead body", I don't think we have enough information to say.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 12:16   Link #11271
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
I believe they died there (blood/part of the clothes?)
Just mass blood splaters everything. But Battler even discribes it as "A gruecome blood red paint." I know he is just saying that it is everywhere on the floor. But it is just strange.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 12:46   Link #11272
TTR
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Maria, Witch of Origins, also has a staff?

Also, since the gun came up, lemme post this (although you all probably know it hahaha)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawed-off Winchester M-1894 (EP1 TIP)
A sawed-off custom rifle manufactured during the golden age of Winchesters. Besides that, it has had its portability and romantic aspect jacked up at the expense of its lethal range. Also, if one can handle the unique lever action, one can also use it for rapid-fire like an average pistol. On top of that, the single-hand reload action using the characteristic lever handle will no doubt be irresistible to Western lovers.

It can employ up to .45 long-colt bullets, just as Kinzo likes it. The number of rounds is 4+1 shots.
This means that if anyone gets shot by a Winchester in the game, then

a) It has to be somewhat close range (for it to be lethal, that is),

b) its lethality, although it's a rifle, is more comparable to a handgun then a true Winchester (.45 Long Colts, or sometimes just .45 Colts are more typical in handguns and pistols then rifles. There is no difference between a Colt and a "Long" Colt. The "Long" is typically said to differentiate between Colts and the shorter Schofield rounds),

c) its lever action is unique, so if you want to shoot quickly (think Arc 4 when the Gold Arrows shoot everyone in the room quickly [ps 45 Long Colt bullets have a gold hue to them]) you have to be able to handle lever action rifles.

and d) You can only shoot it about 5 times (you load 5 bullets with 1 in the chamber and 4 in the internal magazine) before having to reload.

It's EXTREMELY important actually. Notice the 4+1 magazine size. First Twilight is 6 people. Small little holes open with that tip that don't have easy answers. If people get shot for the first twilight, then what happens to the 6th person?

Last edited by TTR; 2010-06-18 at 13:16.
TTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 13:17   Link #11273
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It would perhaps suggest two shooters. That might be consistent with the magic scene, in which several of the alleged victims rushed the attackers but were shot down.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 13:23   Link #11274
TTR
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Also, another thing I was thinking about is that,they always find 6 "bodies". But if that's true then there is no one at the end to kill Natsuhi in EP1. However, if only 5 bodies and a fake show up, the Winchester tip supports it as evidence.

I propose this kill list/howdunnit for EP1 which employs Shkanon and this tip:
Spoiler for Crackpot Theory:

Last edited by TTR; 2010-06-18 at 13:46.
TTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 14:58   Link #11275
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
It's EXTREMELY important actually. Notice the 4+1 magazine size. First Twilight is 6 people. Small little holes open with that tip that don't have easy answers. If people get shot for the first twilight, then what happens to the 6th person?
My guess would be that the 6th person is actually the shooter, playing dead.

P.S. Oops, and then I saw you suggesting the exact same thing.

I'm not well aware of how lever action reloading works, do you know if it can be reloaded before the magazine is empty? Then there may be a lot more reloading windows. What bothers me about the whole sequence is that no shots ever miss. I don't think anyone on the island was ever an expert shooter, with limited quantities of ammo available and everything, so this would imply every shot is taken at a non-moving target who either freezes in place seeing the gun pointed at them, or does not expect the shot at all.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:06   Link #11276
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Sorry for the diversion,

When I re-read EP4 last scene of Ange on Rokkenjima, Ange said to Eva (not Evatrice) that " you are not witch, you are human, aren't you?"

Previously I thought it was her clone, but as anyone acquainted with science would know that personality and memory could not be cloned, at least not in foreseeable future.

Now I realize I should turn the chessboard. It was true that Eva did not really die, because the one Ange saw was the original Eva. And it was actually she killed the men-in-black and Kasumi. Of course, her gun was shot by Amasuka at the end.

(Obviously she had a very good reason to declare herself dead legally, as we all know, she despised her life at that time)

How does this relate to Umineko? Well, it has to do with the tea party in EP6, when Okonogi said something about "for the peace of world".

So how did Eva come back in life? Organ-transplant. From whom? Her clone. How can that be clones? Kinzo's final invention. And we know why Kinzo wanted to do complete cloning. It was the true treasure Eva acquired from Kwadorian, as well as explaining her wealth even though she did not use the 10ton gold.

Why Okonogi would worry about Ange being head of the family? Because if this techonology slipped into the wrong hands, world order could be disrupted.

Sounds crazy?


BTW, when I searched on the net, I found that there was a real princess called Maria Beatrice of Savoy. An italian one. Of course, she could not be Kinzo's lover as she was born in 1943.



Ahh. For the current discussion of using rifle to shoot six people, shouldn't the culprit use sedative first? They drank quite a lot of tea.
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.

Last edited by ijriims; 2010-06-18 at 15:22.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:13   Link #11277
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
so crazy enough to work that's what!

Anyways I'd think that the victims would have to be sitting down or in some situation that required them to be stationary if every shot were to hit. Like let's say Rudolph was sitting across from the killer and then the killer pulled out the rifle from underneath the table and bam. Something like that is what I'm guessing.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:20   Link #11278
CainSonozaki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Also, another thing I was thinking about is that,they always find 6 "bodies". But if that's true then there is no one at the end to kill Natsuhi in EP1. However, if only 5 bodies and a fake show up, the Winchester tip supports it as evidence.

I propose this kill list/howdunnit for EP1 which employs Shkanon and this tip:
Spoiler for Crackpot Theory:
But who lets the culprit out after the first twilight? I mean sure theres that SLIGHT possibility she (since youre basically calling it shannon without using her name) could break out, but that would mean fumling around in the dark for a while for either tools to break out, or the light switch (if theres a light in the storehouse) THEN tools to break out
CainSonozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:25   Link #11279
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
But who lets the culprit out after the first twilight? I mean sure theres that SLIGHT possibility she (since youre basically calling it shannon without using her name) could break out, but that would mean fumling around in the dark for a while for either tools to break out, or the light switch (if theres a light in the storehouse) THEN tools to break out
...or the simple expedient flashlight stored in your pocket for just such an occasion.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:37   Link #11280
KnightOfTwo
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
But who lets the culprit out after the first twilight? I mean sure theres that SLIGHT possibility she (since youre basically calling it shannon without using her name) could break out, but that would mean fumling around in the dark for a while for either tools to break out, or the light switch (if theres a light in the storehouse) THEN tools to break out
If I am not mistaken there is a light in the storehouse as Battler was able to look into it and see Gohda and Kumasawa hanging in EP4, which took place in the middle of the night.
KnightOfTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.