AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-18, 15:41   Link #11281
zRyuu
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
My guess would be that the 6th person is actually the shooter, playing dead.

P.S. Oops, and then I saw you suggesting the exact same thing.

I'm not well aware of how lever action reloading works, do you know if it can be reloaded before the magazine is empty? Then there may be a lot more reloading windows. What bothers me about the whole sequence is that no shots ever miss. I don't think anyone on the island was ever an expert shooter, with limited quantities of ammo available and everything, so this would imply every shot is taken at a non-moving target who either freezes in place seeing the gun pointed at them, or does not expect the shot at all.
The 6th person is Rosa if the order of ppl dying that we are seeing is right. Other than her being the only one to fight back i dont really see anything strange about Rosa's death. I thought this "Kinzo" was George, mainly because of the text in his scene fighting Gaap, there were just many similarities with Kinzo. Also, at the end Jessica is killed by George and apparently George is killed by Jessica, but Gaap fixes the corpse and kills him in other way, so we can say that George didnt die there. He was killed by someone else, and probably much later.
zRyuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 15:47   Link #11282
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 22
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
The 6th person is Rosa if the order of ppl dying that we are seeing is right. Other than her being the only one to fight back i dont really see anything strange about Rosa's death. I thought this "Kinzo" was George, mainly because of the text in his scene fighting Gaap, there were just many similarities with Kinzo. Also, at the end Jessica is killed by George and apparently George is killed by Jessica, but Gaap fixes the corpse and kills him in other way, so we can say that George didnt die there. He was killed by someone else, and probably much later.
Mostly I think we are talking about ep1 in that statment.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 16:59   Link #11283
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
In Episode 1, Kanon finds the wire cutters in the "storage room". (When reading the episode, it appears to mean the site of the first twilight, but there's also an underground storage room in the mansion mentioned in Episode 5.)

In Episode 4, Battler finds the wire cutters in the boiler room.

Conclusion: Somebody moved the cutters at some point in one of those two Episodes. Letting somebody out of the shed (or escaping the shed) seems the most likely reason to me.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:04   Link #11284
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 22
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
In Episode 1, Kanon finds the wire cutters in the "storage room". (When reading the episode, it appears to mean the site of the first twilight, but there's also an underground storage room in the mansion mentioned in Episode 5.)

In Episode 4, Battler finds the wire cutters in the boiler room.

Conclusion: Somebody moved the cutters at some point in one of those two Episodes. Letting somebody out of the shed (or escaping the shed) seems the most likely reason to me.
The 'storage room' in the manga is just down the hall inside the main house.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:06   Link #11285
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Conclusion: Somebody moved the cutters at some point in one of those two Episodes. Letting somebody out of the shed (or escaping the shed) seems the most likely reason to me.
Unless they always had more than one cutter device, which could well be -- in large households, things like that will accumulate and duplicate seemingly through no action of anyone specific, and over thirty years it's no surprise at all.

The important thing about Kanon's visit to the shed in Ep1, though, is that he does not ask Genji for the key (even though the shed should be locked with a padlock from outside, and Genji should have the only key displayed, and there probably should be two keys since padlocks normally come with two - so where did the second one go?) or pay any attention to any of the bodies, which should still be in there. Kumasawa, who has not yet seen the bodies, goes with him and does not even gasp.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:08   Link #11286
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
The 'storage room' in the manga is just down the hall inside the main house.
In the novel, the background used is very definitely marked in code comments as the ceiling of the garden storehouse, though, and the text seems to concur that it is the garden storehouse.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:22   Link #11287
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Natsuhi kept the key to the shed.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:25   Link #11288
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Natsuhi kept the key to the shed.
Ah, yes, my bad, you are correct.

Quote:
`Genji fished around inside the storehouse, and unsealed a brand-new padlock which had been inside a small box.`
ld l,$GEN_DefA1,23

;「鍵はどうなさいますか…?」@
`"What should I do with the key...?"`@
ld r,$NAT_zutuuA1,80

;「……私が持ちましょう。@責任を持って警察に手渡します。」@
;<夏妃
`"......I will take it.`@` I will take responsibility and hand it over to the police."`@
; 源次の手から、南京錠の鍵が夏妃に手渡される。
`Natsuhi took the key to the padlock from Genji's hand.`
So how did Kanon enter, and why does the freshly unsealed padlock in a box (presumably cardboard) only have one key?
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:26   Link #11289
Verg Avesta
Endless Turnless
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Somebody mentioned the end of episode 1 a while ago, what with the "raising the staff". There's also one other point of interest in that ending that I'd like to point out.

The fact that Battler, George, Jessica and Maria actually "meet" someone should already tell something. Both Jessica and George are focused on this new figure, and Maria even runs up to "her", calling "her" Beatrice. Battler even aims for her.

And then we hear this "Witch" laugh. Laugh in a way that can be described as "quite" insane. However, interesting thing in this laugh is not that it's heard, it's that Battler actually corrects himself later when describing that laugh.

Quote:
The witch's.......no, the witches' laughing voices mixed and even the large clock in the hall started laughing.
Emphasis mine.

Now, does this mean that this is the first time Maria is actually counted as a "witch"? So, in other words, our first glimpse at MARIA? Or could this, possibly, mean that there is not only one person in the shadows, but two?

Just a thought.
__________________
If not counting the spider and the dog, I'm the best!
Verg Avesta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:34   Link #11290
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
So how did Kanon enter, and why does the freshly unsealed padlock in a box (presumably cardboard) only have one key?
Yeah, I've brought this up about a thousand times: padlocks ALWAYS come with two keys. Two.

Genji probably kept one in order to let out the FT faker(s) later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Now, does this mean that this is the first time Maria is actually counted as a "witch"? So, in other words, our first glimpse at MARIA? Or could this, possibly, mean that there is not only one person in the shadows, but two?
He's talking about Maria, yeah. There's a panel in the manga with the two standing side-by-side, laughing together.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:45   Link #11291
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 22
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
But how can Kanon only be gone for 5 minutes if he has to go to the garden shed?
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:48   Link #11292
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
But how can Kanon only be gone for 5 minutes if he has to go to the garden shed?
He ran, I suppose.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 17:48   Link #11293
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Now, does this mean that this is the first time Maria is actually counted as a "witch"? So, in other words, our first glimpse at MARIA? Or could this, possibly, mean that there is not only one person in the shadows, but two?

Just a thought.
I am willing to interpret this as Maria counting among the witches in Battler's eyes in this moment. Maria in Full Magic Mode can creep out pretty much any normal person and often does.

But, the possibility of more than one person being there cannot be strictly discounted, as both Kanon and Shannon (or a different undefined murderer which pretended to be a corpse during the first twilight - that red really isn't very clear) can possibly be alive at that moment, and we aren't even fully certain if those two have one body or two between them.

There is one other interesting thing in that story that I don't see mentioned often. That is, Natsuhi doesn't just run out into the hall, she is lured out by a letter. Our only hint about the contents of this letter is Natsuhi's phrase said during the ensuing magical scene: "Both I, bearing the title of representative to the Ushiromiya family, and you, the one who claims to succeed the head of the Ushiromiya family, are here right now. ......At this point, whether you are a witch or not is a trivial problem!"

This would suggest that the letter claimed that someone actually has succession rights. I don't remember any other instance of any "Beatrice" suggesting anything of the sort except Evatrice. By the logic of the Ushiromiya ranking, Jessica is the currently highest ranking Ushiromiya, and would be the default successor. The only ones who could theoretically jump in before her if the ranking is followed are:
  • A grandchild of Kinzo born to a child of Kinzo older than Krauss. We have no hints that such a person exists.
  • A grandchild of Kinzo that is born to Beatrice-2, if the terms of Kinzo's will exempt any other descendants from the inheritance.
  • Any surviving child of Kinzo, whether one of the known ones or an extra child. There is some reason to believe Shannon or Kanon could be that, but I can't say it's solid.
  • Any surviving character that is not Jessica, George, Natsuhi, Battler or Maria who has solved the epitaph and discovered the gold.
So, does a character that could lay such a claim exist at this point in time and which of the four possible ones it is?
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:05   Link #11294
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I am willing to interpret this as Maria counting among the witches in Battler's eyes in this moment. Maria in Full Magic Mode can creep out pretty much any normal person and often does.

But, the possibility of more than one person being there cannot be strictly discounted, as both Kanon and Shannon (or a different undefined murderer which pretended to be a corpse during the first twilight - that red really isn't very clear) can possibly be alive at that moment, and we aren't even fully certain if those two have one body or two between them.

There is one other interesting thing in that story that I don't see mentioned often. That is, Natsuhi doesn't just run out into the hall, she is lured out by a letter. Our only hint about the contents of this letter is Natsuhi's phrase said during the ensuing magical scene: "Both I, bearing the title of representative to the Ushiromiya family, and you, the one who claims to succeed the head of the Ushiromiya family, are here right now. ......At this point, whether you are a witch or not is a trivial problem!"

This would suggest that the letter claimed that someone actually has succession rights. I don't remember any other instance of any "Beatrice" suggesting anything of the sort except Evatrice. By the logic of the Ushiromiya ranking, Jessica is the currently highest ranking Ushiromiya, and would be the default successor. The only ones who could theoretically jump in before her if the ranking is followed are:
  • A grandchild of Kinzo born to a child of Kinzo older than Krauss. We have no hints that such a person exists.
  • A grandchild of Kinzo that is born to Beatrice-2, if the terms of Kinzo's will exempt any other descendants from the inheritance.
  • Any surviving child of Kinzo, whether one of the known ones or an extra child. There is some reason to believe Shannon or Kanon could be that, but I can't say it's solid.
  • Any surviving character that is not Jessica, George, Natsuhi, Battler or Maria who has solved the epitaph and discovered the gold.
So, does a character that could lay such a claim exist at this point in time and which of the four possible ones it is?
Or, she knows that all of the Ushiromiyas will die and she will, by default, take possession of the title of the head.
So it doesn't exactly matter where she is on the hierarchy.
As long as
1.) "Beatrice" doesn't die and
2.) "Beatrice" is at least mentioned once in Kinzo's plans for his successor

Then it doesn't matter too much, I'd think.

Maybe "Beatrice" killed Natsuhi with whatever (probably the gun) and at least incapacitated the others, then fled to a safe spot. Now, the problem becomes "does the bomb detonate at exactly midnight?" because if so, the grandfather clock rang after Natsuhi's confrontation and there was no way "Beatrice" could have escaped in time.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:20   Link #11295
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Maybe "Beatrice" killed Natsuhi with whatever (probably the gun) and at least incapacitated the others, then fled to a safe spot. Now, the problem becomes "does the bomb detonate at exactly midnight?" because if so, the grandfather clock rang after Natsuhi's confrontation and there was no way "Beatrice" could have escaped in time.
It has been explained numerous times previously that is irrational for someone who knows about the bomb and wants it to kill everyone to actually kill anyone with their own hands -- why bother, dirty your hands, and increase the chance that someone will seek refuge in the woods or elsewhere the explosion does not reach, when you can just wait?

For the same reason, if anyone wishes to become the successor by default by being in the ranking list and killing off everyone else, if they know about the bomb, it makes no sense for them whatsoever to stick around at all at this point (when everybody has to think they're dead or never existed) or call Natsuhi out to personally kill her (which incurs absolutely pointless risk as she'll be dead in a few minutes anyway).

Only a very, very vindictive person would bother killing anyone personally and use an endgame explosion that's enough to pulverise all the bodies whether they are living or dead to cover their tracks, and this does not sit well with the motive of becoming the successor by default as the only survivor. It is much more reasonable that whoever is the "Beatrice" calling Natsuhi out does not know about the endgame event at all.

This logic remains the same even if the endgame event is not required to be triggered strictly at the clock tick, as it is not required to incapacitate anyone to kill them with it or duel Natsuhi - blocking the door from outside while they're in the room (like Natsuhi herself did) and fleeing would be quite sufficient.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:29   Link #11296
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It has been explained numerous times previously that is irrational for someone who knows about the bomb and wants it to kill everyone to actually kill anyone with their own hands -- why bother, dirty your hands, and increase the chance that someone will seek refuge in the woods or elsewhere the explosion does not reach, when you can just wait?

For the same reason, if anyone wishes to become the successor by default by being in the ranking list and killing off everyone else, if they know about the bomb, it makes no sense for them whatsoever to stick around at all at this point (when everybody has to think they're dead or never existed) or call Natsuhi out to personally kill her (which incurs absolutely pointless risk as she'll be dead in a few minutes anyway).

Only a very, very vindictive person would bother killing anyone personally and use an endgame explosion that's enough to pulverise all the bodies whether they are living or dead to cover their tracks, and this does not sit well with the motive of becoming the successor by default as the only survivor. It is much more reasonable that whoever is the "Beatrice" calling Natsuhi out does not know about the endgame event at all.

This logic remains the same even if the endgame event is not required to be triggered strictly at the clock tick, as it is not required to incapacitate anyone to kill them with it or duel Natsuhi - blocking the door from outside while they're in the room (like Natsuhi herself did) and fleeing would be quite sufficient.
That is true-- only a very angry person would risk their life like that just for the sake of, well, "making sure they die."

Maybe the "Beatrice" in the letter is not the same person as the one who kills Natsuhi.

Any of these could have happened then:

1.) "Beatrice" sets us up the bomb, Culprit 2 kills Natsuhi and everyone except "Beatrice" dies.
2.) Nobody knows about the bomb (a victim of the First or Second Twilights is responsible for the explosion), and "Beatrice" kills Natsuhi with the intent of killing off the children, so can attain "head of the family" by default. She anticipates that they would escape the room and flees, planning to isolate them and kill them. Bomb detonates, EVERYONE dies.
3.) As you say, somebody does not know about the bomb and, for whatever reason, is confident enough about both their position as head (for an unknown reason) and their current weapon and calls out Natsuhi. Similar to choice 1.

It would definitely be more interesting to go with your idea though, that "Beatrice" already is sure about her being the head.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:32   Link #11297
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
In Episode 1, Kanon finds the wire cutters in the "storage room". (When reading the episode, it appears to mean the site of the first twilight, but there's also an underground storage room in the mansion mentioned in Episode 5.)
Yeah I think the storehouse might be a room in the mansion too. That just seems to make more sense than going outside to the garden shed, and I think wire cutters are something you'd keep inside anyway.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:39   Link #11298
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It has been explained numerous times previously that is irrational for someone who knows about the bomb and wants it to kill everyone to actually kill anyone with their own hands -- why bother, dirty your hands, and increase the chance that someone will seek refuge in the woods or elsewhere the explosion does not reach, when you can just wait?
Making them seek refuge in the parlor for example makes sense if you want them to wait out the remaining time distracted by something else (mostly hate for a murderer) until it happens. Or if you want to send a message to Battler, which we know is someone's motive.

We know the bomb happens after the 2 days. We also assume murders happen during those two days. Now me personally I think whether the culprit knows or not about the bomb is irrelevant. The fact is people have a motive for murder. People have a motive to make the bomb. The bomb can be explained later. What I'm more concerned about is: if the bomb was used for murder does that even make sense? Why give them two days to live if you hate them and yourself enough to destroy everything on a 10 KM island? Why not do it right away?
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 18:44   Link #11299
Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Making them seek refuge in the parlor for example makes sense if you want them to wait out the remaining time distracted by something else (mostly hate for a murderer) until it happens. Or if you want to send a message to Battler, which we know is someone's motive.

We know the bomb happens after the 2 days. We also assume murders happen during those two days. Now me personally I think whether the culprit knows or not about the bomb is irrelevant. The fact is people have a motive for murder. People have a motive to make the bomb. The bomb can be explained later. What I'm more concerned about is: if the bomb was used for murder does that even make sense? Why give them two days to live if you hate them and yourself enough to destroy everything on a 10 KM island? Why not do it right away?
If the bomber wants something from the family, but don't get it, they would allow the bomb to explode. If they did, they'd disarm it or leave first.

For example, a popular theory is that Shannon is the bomber. She wants Battler to remember his sin and stuff. When he never does, or Shannon is killed before he can, the bomb goes off. Theoretically she would disarm it if he did.
Shiro Kaisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-18, 19:10   Link #11300
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
There is another motive though. Suppose someone knew this disaster was going to happen, but they were not the cause of it and there was nothing they could do about it. How would you like the people you love to spend their final moments? Would you just leave them be and have a normal, boring, family conference, maybe with a few of the kids playing Uno? Or would you want them to experience something more exciting?

Now the motive I'm proposing here is that this person wants to take the blame over the person who actually deserves it. Or they want the others to have fun as opposed to the culprit having fun. Letting them hate someone in thier last moments when the person responsible isn't present at least shows this person has some empathy.

Now this is a rational reason, and it explains the fake death conspiracy actually. Me thinks the culprit just has communication problems.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.