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View Poll Results: Angel Beats! - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 71 42.77%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 20.48%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 12.05%
7 out of 10 : Good 19 11.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 4.22%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 3.61%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 2.41%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 1.81%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.60%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.60%
Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-06-19, 01:30   Link #81
farios
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This episode is a major disappointment, personally i think this ep is the worst episode among all other episodes. Everything just doesn't make any sense and a total waste of chances. Many characters just lack of personalities and killed way too sudden, they have many characters with an implied sad background but they aren't telling us what it is, do they really expect us to sympathize a character like that? And who is that guy with Angel Player? How come Angel have Angel Player? Yuri and Otonashi has filled their wasted life but they didn't get "graduated" immediately, what's the reason anyway( maybe next episode)?

Otonashi just angered me ever since he starts working with Angel by making Angel once again the enemy of SSS and just choosing the person he wants to disappear like they are his belongings, i mean can he at least ask them whether that's really is their wish or not? Is making Angel the bad guy really is the only option, can he discuss things with the smarter guys like said, Yuri? Does he thinks this is only his problem alone, that he makes decision that involves the whole cast all by himself? Among all KEY main character i can safely says Otonashi is the only main character that i wish just went straight to hell along with his damn reason.

Yeah i know i still haven't watched the climax but before that this is my opinion about Otonashi, and i have no intention to change it.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:40   Link #82
Antiscian
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Farios:
-No, they do not expect us to sympathise with each and every background character. It's more about realising how even with that much variation, they all managed to come to terms with their life and be fulfilled. This is probably a testament to Yuri's creation of the SSS and the bonds it forged.
See page 9, Eater of All explained it pretty well.
-As mentioned, I believe the guy in the computer room is an advanced NPC/projection of the computer program meant to explain and interact. This is why he had no personality, no opinions, and hardly any answers.
-Angel has angel player because she's the freaking angel.
In all seriousness, we'll probably find out next ep because we don't know much about her past.
-Otonashi wants to help people; that's been his goal ever since he decided to become a doctor. He has a reason to stay on.
Yuri: admittedly, I don't know.

-They wouldn't have disappeared if they didn't have enough fun. As explained in the computer room scene, it's actually a bad thing for them to become too accustomed to their lives in the SSS, because the school is meant to be a place where they learn to accept and move on. This is why Yuri decided not to hijack the computers and turn the whole place into a heaven: it would result in people staying forever and never learning to accept their life.
-Otonashi didn't act as smart as he could have, I admit that. He underestimated Yuri and thought she would oppose them no matter what, and that's why he didn't try talking to her.
In light of that, making Kanade the scapegoat was a decent-ish idea.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

Last edited by Antiscian; 2010-06-19 at 01:42. Reason: Reference adding.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:48   Link #83
Larvayne
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As much as showing us all the backstories of the characters would be ideal, the lack of time in the onscreen anime is... well, the lack of time. Yes, in hindsight, 26 episodes would be good, but that's in hindsight. The story we get may be later expanded in the CD Dramas? Or even the radio dramas.

Personally, I think Yuri stayed on because the others were still in that world. She's willing to "follow them", but since they haven't 'disappeared', that's why she's still there.

The whole disappearing thing: we're judging as a bad idea because our first experience was the propaganda that disappearing = reincarnation into something else entirely. But the idea is that moving on/disappearing is not a bad thing at all. Otonashi can believe in that because Iwasawa chose it herself. Kanade who must have been here a long time knows that as well. It's further proven when Yui disappears, happy at last.

Sure, you can be angry when your favourite character disappears.

But tl;dr Moving on is not/never a bad thing, Otonashi is not evil/bastard/stupid for wanting everyone to disappear.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:51   Link #84
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And, in fact, it is the rule.
The mysterious boy said it in the episode that the afterlife is created as a transit and is not really there to give lost souls permanent accommodation.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:54   Link #85
zeth006
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Spoiler for Ending Scene (Slightly big pic):

Last edited by zeth006; 2010-06-19 at 02:10.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:56   Link #86
Larvayne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
And, in fact, it is the rule.
The mysterious boy said it in the episode that the afterlife is created as a transit and is not really there to give lost souls permanent accommodation.
I hope that line stops the Otonashi, you're a jerk thought many watchers have at the moment. I highly doubt it will, but I can hope.
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:57   Link #87
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I can't believe this! All of the non core members + girl dead monster are gone. Just like that.

EVEN YUSA!? You only had a handful of lines and like 2 scenes... I was waiting for her back story.

I guessing most of you don't even know who she is .
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Old 2010-06-19, 01:58   Link #88
farios
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
Farios:
-No, they do not expect us to sympathise with each and every background character. It's more about realising how even with that much variation, they all managed to come to terms with their life and be fulfilled. This is probably a testament to Yuri's creation of the SSS and the bonds it forged.
Yeah i admit taht isn't possible but they all have a potential for that if only the studio just care to show them, rather than killing them in a most unsatisfying way

Quote:
-As mentioned, I believe the guy in the computer room is an advanced NPC/projection of the computer program meant to explain and interact. This is why he had no personality, no opinions, and hardly any answers.
Well i guess that's one logical way to accept it, thanks.

Quote:
-Angel has angel player because she's the freaking angel.
In all seriousness, we'll probably find out next ep because we don't know much about her past.
Hopefully not some dull explanation like "God give me this highly supernatural software because he seems to think that i a somehow mysterious player with an almost zero social skill is a perfect candidate for supervising this world"

Quote:
-Otonashi wants to help people; that's been his goal ever since he decided to become a doctor. He has a reason to stay on.
Yuri: admittedly, I don't know.
Somehow it just bugs me with that explanation, he can;t move on because he wants the other to move on first?...Bummer if you ask me

Quote:
-They wouldn't have disappeared if they didn't have enough fun. As explained in the computer room scene, it's actually a bad thing for them to become too accustomed to their lives in the SSS, because the school is meant to be a place where they learn to accept and move on. This is why Yuri decided not to hijack the computers and turn the whole place into a heaven: it would result in people staying forever and never learning to accept their life.
But c'mon he just choose randomly that X worth to move on because it looks like X has enough fun in this world, despite you know he barely anything about them, like when he thinks that Yui qualifies simply because he thinks her fun already equals to her suffering in the past. If you look at another way it seems that Otonashi just playing god by deciding who's out first and last

Quote:
-Otonashi didn't act as smart as he could have, I admit that. He underestimated Yuri and thought she would oppose them no matter what, and that's why he didn't try talking to her.
In light of that, making Kanade the scapegoat was a decent-ish idea.
Actually i think that's pretty dumb, i mean "I want you to distract them, so i can secretly makes them disappear"? So he makes Angel hated again, just so he can works secretly? After all the time, he finally realizes that they can stop fighting if both sides (SSS and Angel) can just talks things out, and he can be a potential mediator for both of them, he decides to keep it a secret? WTH?

Quote:
I hope that answers some of your questions.
Yes, thank you
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:03   Link #89
MeoTwister5
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Well at least the pacing wasn't on crack but... god the episode ending. I'm sorry Mr. Maeda but I needed to roll my eyes on the entire talk between Matrix dude and Yuri. It's as cheesy and cliche as cheese and cliche goes. Dropping that sort of bomb, forcing Yuri to sink it in and having her unload on the monitors in the span of 10 minutes barely gives the watcher enough time to digest it all much less give an adequate closure to the entire shadow arc. Again I blame bad pacing and the utter lack of airing length.

Oh well whatever. I definitely see a Key-style tearjerker ending next week, and maybe that would at least salvage any failures the series has racked up at this point (kinda like Air TV, to a lesser extent).
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:06   Link #90
zeth006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larvayne View Post
As much as showing us all the backstories of the characters would be ideal, the lack of time in the onscreen anime is... well, the lack of time. Yes, in hindsight, 26 episodes would be good, but that's in hindsight. The story we get may be later expanded in the CD Dramas? Or even the radio dramas.

Personally, I think Yuri stayed on because the others were still in that world. She's willing to "follow them", but since they haven't 'disappeared', that's why she's still there.

The whole disappearing thing: we're judging as a bad idea because our first experience was the propaganda that disappearing = reincarnation into something else entirely. But the idea is that moving on/disappearing is not a bad thing at all. Otonashi can believe in that because Iwasawa chose it herself. Kanade who must have been here a long time knows that as well. It's further proven when Yui disappears, happy at last.

Sure, you can be angry when your favourite character disappears.

But tl;dr Moving on is not/never a bad thing, Otonashi is not evil/bastard/stupid for wanting everyone to disappear.


LOL. Spot on.


Maybe I'm a bit old. But I don't understand why people view Otonashi as an evil bastard for getting people to disappear. Moving on when your life takes on major changes is simply an important part of growing up. When you graduate from college and watch your friends get married and get kids, the most you can do is cheer them on, evaluate where you are in life, and live with it. I think some people here can't accept that the "disappeared" simply took the next phase into the unknown afterlife.


Personally, if I were to live in that kind of world, I'm not so sure I'd be satisfied let alone happy knowing that it's all just a preconstructed reality designed to serve as a temporary stage that everyone needs to eventually finish and exit. With some rare exceptions, if you're in that world, it means you still have one or more memories of regret and dissatisfaction that hang with you. I've seen people like this in real life. My sister at the age of 29 still harbors a major inferiority complex when she compares herself to the rest of her siblings. I meet people who're clearly unhappy with their own lives and make it their business to try to look bigger than others or to self-victimize themselves when things turn bad. Yet, at the end of the day, that feeling of regret or dissatisfaction gnaws at the back of their heads and never goes away.
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:10   Link #91
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larvayne View Post
I hope that line stops the Otonashi, you're a jerk thought many watchers have at the moment. I highly doubt it will, but I can hope.
It wont

The problem is in the way it's presented to us. We're getting attached to characters who Otonashi is making go away. It's an interesting conundrum, when the characters become happy they disappear, so we're happy for them but sad they're gone heh. I think people are getting hung up on the notion that they're gone and wont be in the show anymore. It feels like they're "killed off" but we tend to forget that they're already dead in the first place.

That aside, this show has really been a lot better than I ever thought it would be based on the summary.
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:12   Link #92
Antiscian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farios View Post
But c'mon he just choose randomly that X worth to move on because it looks like X has enough fun in this world, despite you know he barely anything about them, like when he thinks that Yui qualifies simply because he thinks her fun already equals to her suffering in the past. If you look at another way it seems that Otonashi just playing god by deciding who's out first and last
Admittedly, what other way is there to do it?

He wanted to make people disappear, so he had to somehow start somewhere.
It makes sense to choose the easiest first, and that's why he chose Yui because he thought she would be the easiest.
He was wrong about that, but he accepted the fact that he was wrong and continued to help her until he achieved his goal.
Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Also, I found it interesting how you referred to the minor characters disappearing as 'killing them in a most unsatisfying way'.
What's important to remember is that disappearing isn't the same as killing.
Rather than thinking of their disappearance as 'choosing to kill themselves to escape', it's much more like 'deciding it's time to move out of a rented house, leaving it and getting on with your life'.
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:13   Link #93
farios
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Originally Posted by zeth006 View Post
Maybe I'm a bit old. But I don't understand why people view Otonashi as an evil bastard for getting people to disappear. Moving on when your life takes on major changes is simply an important part of growing up. When you graduate from college and watch your friends get married and get kids, the most you can do is cheer them on, evaluate where you are in life, and live with it. I think some people here can't accept that the "disappeared" simply took the next phase into the unknown afterlife.
Simply because he selfishly thinks that they all wants to move on, and sorry for being rude but you compares graduation in this show with a real graduation, first of all this "graduation" is much more serious and no one is going to be happy if they know someone is making such an important decision about when you'll graduate like that without discussing it with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
Also, I found it interesting how you referred to the minor characters disappearing as 'killing them in a most unsatisfying way'.
What's important to remember is that disappearing isn't the same as killing.
Rather than thinking of their disappearance as 'choosing to kill themselves to escape', it's much more like 'deciding it's time to move out of a rented house, leaving it and getting on with your life'.
I think you misunderstand something, i mean erasing them from the show, we won't see them and hear anything about them anymore, that's pretty much a real killing for us. Not to mention they all just share a really not important cheesy lines before their "disappearance".

Last edited by farios; 2010-06-19 at 02:28. Reason: grammar fix
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:19   Link #94
Joly
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I'm sorry if this question has been answered or if I've missed something, but how is Kanade capable of hearing Yuri's "thoughts exploding" and finding her down in Guild? Is that apart of her passive ability? (Overdrive, was it...?)
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:22   Link #95
Antiscian
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The whole Otonashi debate essentially boils down to a difference of ideologies.
Consider this thought experiment:
You are in a large house full of all sorts of people, and you all have fun together every day, but never go outside.
One day, you realise that the whole house is filled with some sort of harmless arbitrary drug-gas substance that makes everyone who breathes it feel happy.

You tell this to people, but most of them say they're happy in the house and don't want to leave, they don't mind staying in the house for the rest of their lives breathing in this 'synthetic' happiness, even though you know that if they leave the house, they could go into the world and possibly find a real, much better happiness for themselves.

Do you try and convince them to leave the house, or do you just leave them?

Otonashi would try and get them to leave. People who disagree with Otonashi wouldn't.
It's a matter of positive liberty (See Isaiah Berlin's 1958 essay "Two Concepts of Liberty"); granting people the ability to fulfill their potential rather than letting them stay in limbo.

Joly:
It's called Applied Phlebotinum.

Last edited by Antiscian; 2010-06-19 at 02:24. Reason: avoiding double post
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:27   Link #96
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joly View Post
I'm sorry if this question has been answered or if I've missed something, but how is Kanade capable of hearing Yuri's "thoughts exploding" and finding her down in Guild? Is that apart of her passive ability? (Overdrive, was it...?)
Hasn't been explained yet, although I'm thinking that ep 13 will clear that up.
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Old 2010-06-19, 02:56   Link #97
zeth006
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Originally Posted by farios View Post
Simply because he selfishly thinks that they all wants to move on, and sorry for being rude but you compares graduation in this show with a real graduation, first of all this "graduation" is much more serious and no one is going to happy if they know someone is making such an important decision about when you'll graduate like that without discussing it with you.
Admittedly on first glance, it looks like an issue of sovereignty. It certainly appears as though Otonashi is "tricking" them into disappearing, which does indeed present a gray area that's worth debating. But the reason why these people are in this alternate world is pretty clearly cut and simple. They're there to grow up and move beyond their sources of regret and dissatisfaction.


Overall, I agree with you. Looking back to the first episodes, all the SSS members are indoctrinated into believing a glaring factual error, which is that disappearing isn't what you want, so living as a student which would only help you relive life causes you to "die." So in other words, by believing what Yuri told them, the SSS members had their choice of choosing between living a fake life and choosing to move on taken away from them from the very beginning! It's true that if you have a major disease, it's your choice whether you want to have a doctor come and help you get better. It's also true Otonashi in a way also took away that freedom despite having the facts of the matter. But he would've done better in considering the matter of sovereignty. Thus he probably had better ways of approaching this dilemma. I think we'd all agree he should've from the beginning considered presenting the dynamic as a choice between living in a faked world or moving into the next stage in the afterlife, though he was right to fear having a wall of suspicion blocking him from doing so. But the director had Otonashi do exactly that toward the end when Yuri had Otonashi explain everything. Abrupt pacing, I'm sure you'll agree!



But let's consider a scenario in which Otonashi never receives the serendipity of having Yuri sniff out his scheme and force him to present the choice between fake world vs. moving on to the others. If you want my honest opinion, I think Otonashi's decision to try "forcing" others to choose the latter was still the right one. He willingly risks alienating everyone by choosing to trick them into doing something they later probably wouldn't regret. If it weren't for the fact that everyone's there to cure emotional scars, I wouldn't be as inclined to take this stance. But because there are emotional scars and old regrets to take into account, I personally feel the choice is clear for anyone.




As for college graduation--perhaps I wasn't clear, so allow me to provide some clarity. I read a few comments and got the impression that some people are enraged that their favorite characters got "killed off." I will be honest in saying I do get a tinge of sadness and nostalgia when I see my preferred anime shows coming to a close. I invoked the college analogy because I felt people were simply getting too touchy feely over seeing their characters gone. Though directors are often pressured to do fanfic service just to please the crowds, I felt there wasn't too much wrong with the way Yui was sent away from the world for all the grumbling and discontent. I felt she "graduated" and moved on and left her regrets behind. I was a bit baffled (at least in my reading of past comments) with the slew of negative reactions people gave since that episode. I was brought to the conclusion that there was nothing much more to discuss in this regard, so it'd be best to move on!

Last edited by zeth006; 2010-06-19 at 03:06.
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Old 2010-06-19, 03:03   Link #98
zeth006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
The whole Otonashi debate essentially boils down to a difference of ideologies.
Consider this thought experiment:
You are in a large house full of all sorts of people, and you all have fun together every day, but never go outside.
One day, you realise that the whole house is filled with some sort of harmless arbitrary drug-gas substance that makes everyone who breathes it feel happy.

You tell this to people, but most of them say they're happy in the house and don't want to leave, they don't mind staying in the house for the rest of their lives breathing in this 'synthetic' happiness, even though you know that if they leave the house, they could go into the world and possibly find a real, much better happiness for themselves.

Do you try and convince them to leave the house, or do you just leave them?

Otonashi would try and get them to leave. People who disagree with Otonashi wouldn't.
It's a matter of positive liberty (See Isaiah Berlin's 1958 essay "Two Concepts of Liberty"); granting people the ability to fulfill their potential rather than letting them stay in limbo.

Joly:
It's called Applied Phlebotinum.

Pretty good grasp of the dynamic. Definitely one worth debating.



I guess I'd be the type of person to "take away" this liberty and risk losing my friendship with them.

But with drug addicts in real life, there's only so much you can do before they push you aside and go back to their old ways. Nothing you can do at that point.
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Old 2010-06-19, 03:50   Link #99
eiyuu99
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Hence, the importance to help them before their dependence is too great and you become indifferent.
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Old 2010-06-19, 04:12   Link #100
maplehurry
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Quote:
Among all KEY main character i can safely says Otonashi is the only main character that i wish just went straight to hell along with his damn reason.
Someone has a grudge... well what about Hinata ?

Maybe you can try to be more forgiving like Yuri

Last edited by maplehurry; 2010-06-19 at 04:35.
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