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Old 2010-06-18, 19:12   Link #11301
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
For example, a popular theory is that Shannon is the bomber. She wants Battler to remember his sin and stuff. When he never does, or Shannon is killed before he can, the bomb goes off. Theoretically she would disarm it if he did.
A Beatrice (whether it's Shannon or Jessica or even Rosa or Maria is irrelevant as long as it's about making Battler remember his sin/solve the epitaph, and wishing to wipe the slate clean if he does not) being the bomber is the explanation of an intentional bomb that I find the most reasonable.

There's also a possibility that the explosion is actually not meant to kill anyone. There are two major branches of that.

The first is a variation of Beatrice Bomber in which the bomb is not meant to explode at all as long as a certain condition is fullfilled -- it is a deadman device. Someone wants to stay alive, so they make sure everyone is dead if they, the only person who can disarm the bomb, aren't alive by the time everything ends. Multiple variations of that can exist but I'm afraid they don't make much sense, because they trip over the Strangelove problem. Namely, "Doctor Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb" features a doomsday device that automatically pollutes the entire planet into uninhabitability if an enemy nuclear bomb is detonated on Soviet territory. Normally, this is a powerful deterrent to doing that. However, it is absolutely not a deterrent if nobody knows it exists, and nobody shows they know of the endgame bomb.

The other interesting branch is an explosion which is not meant to kill anyone because someone plans to save everyone instead -- the bomb being actually only meant to destroy property. There are few good reasons to do that, but the one that comes to mind is someone wishing to destroy the Ushiromiya Family as a social entity without actually killing any Ushiromiyas, by fabricating their untimely demise in a mysterious accident and providing them with new identities. This is sort of logical, but there needs to be some compelling reason to convince the survivors to abandon their previous life, (and Ange!) for which no clear hints can be seen.
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Old 2010-06-18, 19:17   Link #11302
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Now this is a rational reason, and it explains the fake death conspiracy actually. Me thinks the culprit just has communication problems.
This is wonderfully twisted, but also requires the culprit not to know where Kuwadorian is or not to know that you can survive by going there. Even if they don't know of the tunnels, two kilometres across the forest and those bolt cutters would be a sufficiently good fighting chance.

Can you throw in a Marmalade Boy ending twist to go with it? Pretty please?
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Old 2010-06-18, 19:23   Link #11303
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
This is wonderfully twisted, but also requires the culprit not to know where Kuwadorian is or not to know that you can survive by going there. Even if they don't know of the tunnels, two kilometres across the forest and those bolt cutters would be a sufficiently good fighting chance.

Can you throw in a Marmalade Boy ending twist to go with it? Pretty please?
Unfortunately I didn't read that one. Feel free to add your own ending though.
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Old 2010-06-18, 19:41   Link #11304
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The other interesting branch is an explosion which is not meant to kill anyone because someone plans to save everyone instead -- the bomb being actually only meant to destroy property. There are few good reasons to do that, but the one that comes to mind is someone wishing to destroy the Ushiromiya Family as a social entity without actually killing any Ushiromiyas, by fabricating their untimely demise in a mysterious accident and providing them with new identities. This is sort of logical, but there needs to be some compelling reason to convince the survivors to abandon their previous life, (and Ange!) for which no clear hints can be seen.
Now that is a very interesting thought, but there are several inexplicable points. Let's try to see if we can find a way to justify them.


Point1:
Why leaving Ange all alone with a sad life? Why couldn't they tell her the truth?

Possible solution:
The Ange of EP4 is not the real Ange, she's a dramatized version created by Hachijou, based on fragments of what is publicly known about her.
The true Ange never really had such a sad life, Eva told her all the truth, and she might even secretly met her family in the meantime.


Point2:
Why all this time? Even if there was an "evil party X" bent on the Ushiromiya total annihilation, couldn't they come up with a plan in the meantime to solve the issue?

Possible explanations:
-For some reasons the plan actually took 12 years
-The plan was completed but they decided to never let the world know the truth. They got used to such a life? But what kind of life are they living?

alternative explanation:

Kinzo built a fallout shelter in the island (can you put it past kinzo? He lived during the cold war after all). In order to escape from the explosion everyone entered inside the shelter (except Eva, that might have been separated by the other for who know which reason and doesn't know about this). The shelter was meant to save everyone and so on, but the explosion was stronger than predicted and now they are all stuck inside!!!
They have been living inside the shelter for 12 years and Ange needs to go there and save them.


Point3
What's the point with the messages and the letters?

I still don't have a fully satisfactory explanation for those to begin with, regardless of the theory I'm exploring right now.

Any other thoughts?
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Old 2010-06-18, 20:03   Link #11305
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Point3
What's the point with the messages and the letters?

I still don't have a fully satisfactory explanation for those to begin with, regardless of the theory I'm exploring right now.

Any other thoughts?
My personal joke theory? Money, lots and lots of money, mostly from selling the mystery books. it was the gamble of a lifetime! The bottles were a unique packaging twist to get sales.
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Old 2010-06-18, 20:11   Link #11306
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Point1:
Why leaving Ange all alone with a sad life? Why couldn't they tell her the truth?

Possible solution:
The Ange of EP4 is not the real Ange, she's a dramatized version created by Hachijou, based on fragments of what is publicly known about her.
The true Ange never really had such a sad life, Eva told her all the truth, and she might even secretly met her family in the meantime.
I have actually first seen this branch detailed by Renall, and he was also the first one to point out Ange as the big red stop sign on the entire train of thought. That possible solution of yours works fine, but brings into doubt such a large chunk of text that precious little undoubted text remains from Ep4 at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Point2:
Why all this time? Even if there was an "evil party X" bent on the Ushiromiya total annihilation, couldn't they come up with a plan in the meantime to solve the issue?

Possible explanations:
-For some reasons the plan actually took 12 years
-The plan was completed but they decided to never let the world know the truth. They got used to such a life? But what kind of life are they living?
That, actually, is not a very big issue. It is very likely that after Krauss' machinations, the Ushiromiya Group is worthless, and sticking with it would taint you in the business world for an eternity to come. Every adult in the family has financial troubles big enough to 'do or die', and "dying" without actually dying would be a way out for them preferable to not doing at all. Even if that proves insufficient, there is a very good possibility that bearing an Ushiromiya name itself is a ticking bomb large enough to destroy anyone's reputation forever, because of something immensely reprehensible Kinzo did to acquire his ten tons of gold -- revealing that would be a very convincing argument for vanishing and using the gold to build a new life.

Ange remains the huge stop sign though -- either we disregard her story somehow, or this doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kinzo built a fallout shelter in the island (can you put it past kinzo? He lived during the cold war after all). In order to escape from the explosion everyone entered inside the shelter (except Eva, that might have been separated by the other for who know which reason and doesn't know about this). The shelter was meant to save everyone and so on, but the explosion was stronger than predicted and now they are all stuck inside!!!
They have been living inside the shelter for 12 years and Ange needs to go there and save them.
That, actually, is a sweet theory all by itself. Unfortunately, it does not explain why would anyone want to bomb anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Point3
What's the point with the messages and the letters?
If the idea is to hide from the public eye and begin a new life, bottle messages would be rather detrimental to it, unless they are there to draw attention from something else...
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Old 2010-06-18, 21:51   Link #11307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There is one other interesting thing in that story that I don't see mentioned often. That is, Natsuhi doesn't just run out into the hall, she is lured out by a letter. Our only hint about the contents of this letter is Natsuhi's phrase said during the ensuing magical scene: "Both I, bearing the title of representative to the Ushiromiya family, and you, the one who claims to succeed the head of the Ushiromiya family, are here right now. ......At this point, whether you are a witch or not is a trivial problem!"
I keep bringing this up but: What evidence is there that there was ever a letter in the first place?
Evidence for:
- Maria says so (She also mentions Beatrice coming in through the crack in the door, and was in a poor position to see Natsuhi take it.)
- It's described in a golden butterfly scene.

Evidence against:
- Jessica, George, and Battler walked right past the letter without noticing it.
- It disappeared completely by the time they reached Natsuhi's body.
- Even if Natsuhi saw the letter first, she might order somebody else to open it. (She ordered Battler to open and read the study letter.)

Maybe the letter was completely fake and there's a different reason why Natsuhi left the room.
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Old 2010-06-18, 22:56   Link #11308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I keep bringing this up but: What evidence is there that there was ever a letter in the first place?
Evidence for:
- Maria says so (She also mentions Beatrice coming in through the crack in the door, and was in a poor position to see Natsuhi take it.)
- It's described in a golden butterfly scene.

Evidence against:
- Jessica, George, and Battler walked right past the letter without noticing it.
- It disappeared completely by the time they reached Natsuhi's body.
- Even if Natsuhi saw the letter first, she might order somebody else to open it. (She ordered Battler to open and read the study letter.)

Maybe the letter was completely fake and there's a different reason why Natsuhi left the room.
That is the thing, if it is a different reason; then there must be clues as to what that reason is. Also Battler and co rushed right over to Maria and we then starring at her the whole time.

Natsuhi might have stepped on the letter or next to it, she didn't want to children to see it, so she opened it without telling them. Reading the letter which said probably something like they are going to kill everyone. Natsuhi deciding to keep the children safe leaves to confront the culprit, and then locks the door to keep them safe.
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Old 2010-06-18, 23:09   Link #11309
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If not for Ange, the whole "fake-kill everybody and slip away with the gold to a new life in some foreign country" thing would make a lot of sense for Rokkenjima-Prime, but I just can't see Eva and Ange getting abandoned and I don't really buy them actually being in on it. Is it possible? I guess. It's pretty convoluted.

To say nothing of all the servants. To complete the illusion, they'd also have to disappear. Why even involve somebody like Gohda, who has no idea what's going on? What, are you gonna pay him off, and Dr. Nanjo, to pretend they're dead to anyone who might have cared about them? What about Nanjo's grandchild, surely he cares about being there for that?

If the goal was to fake-disappear the family, having just the one-winged servants on duty would've been the best way to do it. Make up some excuse, I don't know.

There's also the question of what they would have done had Battler not come. They can't postpone a plan like that, they're on the brink of ruin. Was the original plan to just ditch Battler and Ange? Except Ange was supposed to be at the conference. So was the plan to just leave all the family debts and remaining assets to Battler and hope for the best? How would that square with "Beatrice" wanting him to remember something?

It's awfully hard to make any sense of it. Doesn't seem workable to me.
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Old 2010-06-19, 00:13   Link #11310
Jan-Poo
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For what concerns Eva I have since a while thought a way to explain why she's left behind.

I thought that maybe for the plan to work someone needs to "sacrifice" himself to save everyone else. In other words someone needed to take care of the family's assets while dodging all kind of murderous plans from the sumadera (hand who knows what else).

And this kind of reminded me of the test in Ep4.

"Sacrifice yourself to save everyone else"

Why the "sacrifice" must involve death? This is a test meant to choose the new head, and we know there is no right or wrong answer. But then how can "sacrifice yourself" be a correct answer? How can you become the new head if you die? But it can work if the sacrifice doesn't involve suicide but something else.

So maybe Eva metaphorically took that test, she chose to sacrifice herself, and as a consequence, she became the new head.
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Old 2010-06-19, 10:02   Link #11311
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why the "sacrifice" must involve death? This is a test meant to choose the new head, and we know there is no right or wrong answer. But then how can "sacrifice yourself" be a correct answer? How can you become the new head if you die? But it can work if the sacrifice doesn't involve suicide but something else.

So maybe Eva metaphorically took that test, she chose to sacrifice herself, and as a consequence, she became the new head.
Jessica chose sacrificing herself but failed the test. So it was not the correct answer.

As Kinzo has said, there was no correct answer, what mattered was the reason.

A reason which showed that the person had the determination, wisdom to resurrect the Ushiromiya family.
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Old 2010-06-19, 12:43   Link #11312
Judoh
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
It's EXTREMELY important actually. Notice the 4+1 magazine size. First Twilight is 6 people. Small little holes open with that tip that don't have easy answers. If people get shot for the first twilight, then what happens to the 6th person?
This is weird, but there is actually an explanation for how 6 people could die if only 5 bullets were used. Krauss's half of his face was blown off on the right side, and Shannon's was on the left. If they were right next to each other when they were shot that explains why there were five shots and six victims. Now why would they stand still together long enough for that? I have no idea.

Of course we could always use they theory that they were killed some other way and that they used a sander or something to do that to their faces afterward. And the death faking. We gotta find some way for there to be a rekiller though if they're faking.
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Old 2010-06-19, 12:51   Link #11313
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is weird, but there is actually an explanation for how 6 people could die if only 5 bullets were used. Krauss's half of his face was blown off on the right side, and Shannon's was on the left. If they were right next to each other when they were shot that explains why there were five shots and six victims. Now why would they stand still together long enough for that? I have no idea.
....kissing.

P.S.: That would incidentally provide an absolutely perfect reason for George to shoot the first twilight victims and nobody else.
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Old 2010-06-19, 13:22   Link #11314
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That is the thing, if it is a different reason; then there must be clues as to what that reason is. Also Battler and co rushed right over to Maria and we then starring at her the whole time.

Natsuhi might have stepped on the letter or next to it, she didn't want to children to see it, so she opened it without telling them. Reading the letter which said probably something like they are going to kill everyone. Natsuhi deciding to keep the children safe leaves to confront the culprit, and then locks the door to keep them safe.
There probably are clues to why Natsuhi left, but nobody looks for them. (My best explanation is that the killer said something to her on the call to the study, before switching it over to Maria's singing.)

Why would she have wanted to prevent the children to knowing about the letter? She didn't care when they learned what was in the previous two, and before she opens it, she has no reason to suspect this letter will be different. Opening an envelope and reading the contents while holding a gun ready is very awkward. She'd need a good reason to open it herself instead of having Battler do it.

Also, when Maria supposedly saw Natsuhi reading the letter:
1) Battler was standing right in front of her, between her and Natsuhi, and he's a big guy.
2) When somebody's grabbing you / talking you, there's a strong tendency to focus on them. Maria's specifically described as making eye contact with George. Natsuhi would be at a distance and out of focus.
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Old 2010-06-19, 14:56   Link #11315
Verg Avesta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
....kissing.
Oh dear lord the horrible mental image

As for what comes to Natsuhi in episode 1's parlor scene, she definitely has to leave at the exact moment that Battler throws the candlestick. That is, after Maria mentions Beatrice. They don't talk that long with Maria, so she has had to act fast, and I don't think the time there would have allowed her to crab a letter from the ground, open it up, and read it, unless it would have been extremely short letter.

A funny thing about the ending of episode 1, though, is that both George and Jessica basically drive them forward the whole time. The moment the phone rings, both Jessica and George urge Natsuhi to answer it, which is then followed by George remembering that Maria mentioned parlor. They also spot Maria first, and George is first to point out that Natsuhi is gone. To me, it feels bit similiar how Hideyoshi and Eva are unusually pushy in episode 5 when it comes to cornering Natsuhi with accusiations.
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Old 2010-06-19, 15:23   Link #11316
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
A funny thing about the ending of episode 1, though, is that both George and Jessica basically drive them forward the whole time. The moment the phone rings, both Jessica and George urge Natsuhi to answer it, which is then followed by George remembering that Maria mentioned parlor. They also spot Maria first, and George is first to point out that Natsuhi is gone.
George, and sometimes Shannon or Jessica, exhibit this kind of behavior throughout all the episodes.

I wouldn't be surprised if EVERYONE except Battler was involved in one of at least two mass murder plots, as this point.
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Old 2010-06-19, 15:38   Link #11317
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if EVERYONE except Battler was involved in one of at least two mass murder plots, as this point.
I'm actually not sure that a way to get Battler involved in one in an active role without his knowledge does not exist. Manipulating someone like this is art, but is occasionally possible, and generally falls under artistic license when fictionalised.
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Old 2010-06-19, 16:05   Link #11318
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
"Sacrifice yourself to save everyone else"

Why the "sacrifice" must involve death? This is a test meant to choose the new head, and we know there is no right or wrong answer. But then how can "sacrifice yourself" be a correct answer? How can you become the new head if you die? But it can work if the sacrifice doesn't involve suicide but something else.

So maybe Eva metaphorically took that test, she chose to sacrifice herself, and as a consequence, she became the new head.
And lived a horrible life afterwards too, as if she died inside.

Maybe this is what the EP6 love duel was talking about? Kanon sacrificed himself so he became the new head. And therefore he didn't 'exist' anymore.

So maybe there are two possible new heads that Kinzo had already picked out. Shannon and Kanon. And Battler was a late addition? It would explain why the gold was 'already someone else's.'

With the exception in EP4 where the rest of the cousins were given a chance to become the new heads too.
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Old 2010-06-19, 16:06   Link #11319
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I'm actually not sure that a way to get Battler involved in one in an active role without his knowledge does not exist. Manipulating someone like this is art, but is occasionally possible, and generally falls under artistic license when fictionalised.
He could be (and judging by his words at the end of the episode, probably is) involved in Ep5's Scare the Shit Out of Natsuhi plot, but I don't think he can have anything to do with the actual murders. I think we had this discussion earlier, but being an accomplice, even unwittingly, should still count as being a "culprit" for the purposes of red text.
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Old 2010-06-20, 10:26   Link #11320
TTR
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Does anyone know if 07 had anything to do with the Character songs?

For some reason Jessica says these two lines in the song:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokkyun Heart
奇跡…魔法…無限…楽園
ルージュ…ノワール…キャネル…イヴォワール
Kiseki, Mahou, Mugen, Rakuen
Ruuju, Nowaaru, Kyaneru, Ibowa-ru

Or

Miracle, Magic, Endless, Paradise
Rouge, Noir, Cannelle, Yvoire.

Cannelle is a place on the island Corsica, which is part of France.

Yvoire is also a place in France, but on the mainland. Near the Swiss Alps.

If he DID have anything to do with this, why did he randomly drop two places in France?

And these lyrics are ones that officially came with the booklet of the song. And the katakana are spelled out exactly how the places are usually spelled in katakana

This bugs me :/
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