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Old 2010-06-18, 22:47   Link #2101
WarpObscura
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That... doesn't address why none of the preceding masters tried that, or why they failed if they did.
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Old 2010-06-19, 03:42   Link #2102
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Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
That... doesn't address why none of the preceding masters tried that, or why they failed if they did.
Because her other masters were all power-hungry bastards, not someone genuinely concerned for Reinforce's well-being. That's the key thing that's different between Hayate and the other masters.
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Old 2010-06-19, 04:33   Link #2103
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... That's the query I'm raising - that surely there must have been at least one previous master who, faced with death, reached out, stood his ground and did everything possible to turn things around? I have this mental picture of the master gritting his teeth through a mask of blood, clenching his hands so tightly they're bleeding, advancing towards Rein with every inch of effort he can muster, shouting "I am your master! I am in charge here! I! Am! Assuming! Direct! Control!" or something like that.
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Old 2010-06-19, 04:44   Link #2104
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Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
... That's the query I'm raising - that surely there must have been at least one previous master who, faced with death, reached out, stood his ground and did everything possible to turn things around? I have this mental picture of the master gritting his teeth through a mask of blood, clenching his hands so tightly they're bleeding, advancing towards Rein with every inch of effort he can muster, shouting "I am your master! I am in charge here! I! Am! Assuming! Direct! Control!" or something like that.
Yeah, the small problem here is that Rein wanted to give control to hayate since a while ago, as she is linked to the knights, and Hayate was the first master to not consider them weapons at all.

Also, there were other special factors, like Fate attacking from inside, Nanoha attacking from outside with seal breaking and magical damage attacks....
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Old 2010-06-19, 06:33   Link #2105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Because her other masters were all power-hungry bastards, not someone genuinely concerned for Reinforce's well-being. That's the key thing that's different between Hayate and the other masters.
That's factor one.

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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Also, there were other special factors, like Fate attacking from inside, Nanoha attacking from outside with seal breaking and magical damage attacks....
That's factor two.

The third factor is that Hayate had a bunch of massively overpowered friends to back her up (Nanoha, Fate, Durandal'd!Chrono), plus the Wolkenritter who went against the Book. I would guess that normally, the completion of the Book happened when its master was alone (didn't want to share power with anyone) and the Wolkies, who were first and foremost the Book's servants (which changed thanks to Hayate), turned on its master. Also, Hayate was probably the first BoD master who willingly cooperated with TSAB (the Arc-en-Ciel) instead of seeing them as enemies (that, and the TSAB only exists for a century, tops). Thus, the Power of Friendship trumps the ancient evil.
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Old 2010-06-19, 06:54   Link #2106
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Also, the implied meaning is that Hayate was THE master who stood her ground in the face of things going to hell, in her own way. While it could have occured earlier, the fact that things only got resolved now implies that Hayate is the first.
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Old 2010-06-19, 23:30   Link #2107
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Three things.

First: what type of ship is the Arthra/Asura? Was it a frigate? A destroyer? A cruiser? Definitely not big enough to be a battleship or carrier...

Second: Do the TSAB have any non-magic weapons? Projectile weapons or plasma weaponry? TSAB warships carrying railgun turrets, perhaps? Shock troops armed with plasma rifles? Old nuclear warheads left over from the pre-magic-weapons olden days, still stored in case of emergency?

Third: Any info on a Japan DVD release date for the Movie, which would thereupon lead to subbed version online so we can see the differences between the movie canon and the original show canon?
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Old 2010-06-20, 01:31   Link #2108
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1. patrol ship.

2. projectile weapons are forbidden, and only select authorised personnel can carry it, Enforcer Aide Runessa Magnus being the only one in canon shown to have the licence required to carry and fire a projectile-based weapon. As for plasma, the technology has not been seen in canon at all.

3. camrip subs were out long ago. i believe the BSS group subbed it.
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Old 2010-06-20, 07:12   Link #2109
Koveras Alvane
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I guess this question has been raised many times before, but I couldn't find any conclusive answers yet...

Can magical energy in its pure form (not its effects, like cutting someone with a magically accelerated blade) permanently damage organic living beings?
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Old 2010-06-20, 07:40   Link #2110
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Like Nanoha's magic backlash?
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Old 2010-06-20, 07:44   Link #2111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
Like Nanoha's magic backlash?
Damn, I knew I left a loophole in that question. *silly me* Should have added "directly damage", as opposed to indirect strain to the caster (Blaster System included).
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:25   Link #2112
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Yes, it can. It clearly can have both kinetic effect (numerous examples) and damaging effect (Vice's sister's eye, Sacred Cluster description, etc). Actually by descriptions it's effort to make it nonlethal which is actually harder than kill somebody... at least before protection kicks in, barrier jacket can take some serious pounding even if mage loses consciousness in the process. Also I DO NOT see why if something can disintegrate inorganic matter it can't disintegrate organic one.
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:49   Link #2113
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Since you say yes, I will play the devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. Not because I have a definite opinion on this question. ^^; I also do not intend to deny that a person can be killed or maimed using magic in a more general sense.

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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
Yes, it can. It clearly can have both kinetic effect (numerous examples)
Kinetic effect is still an effect: the target is thrown across the room and can break their neck but that is true for any fall. On the other hand, we don't see bruises resulting from magical impact itself.

Quote:
and damaging effect (Vice's sister's eye,
It wasn't permanent. IIRC she only had that patch over her eye in episode 22 for the show and removes it later. And eye injury is not a very telling example IMO, because eyes are known to be damaged by intense light (which magical attacks emit), too.

Quote:
Sacred Cluster description,
I cannot remember what it is... Could you help me? ^^;

Quote:
Actually by descriptions it's effort to make it nonlethal which is actually harder than kill somebody... at least before protection kicks in, barrier jacket can take some serious pounding even if mage loses consciousness in the process.
Then what's the whole point of TSAB promoting magical weapons and forbidding mass-based ones? Rubber bullets are not lethal, either (at least, they are supposed not to be). It's just that metal ones work better, and so does lethal magic, by this description, so why discriminate?

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Also I DO NOT see why if something can disintegrate inorganic matter it can't disintegrate organic one.
Because it's magic? ^^ No, seriously, it wouldn't surprise me if magical energy was specifically chosen to serve as the base of civilization and technology because it wasn't affecting organic matter. If you want a more scientific explanation: magical energy is generated by organic matter and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if organic matter were somewhat shielded against it.
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:58   Link #2114
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Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
It wasn't permanent. IIRC she only had that patch over her eye in episode 22 for the show and removes it later. And eye injury is not a very telling example IMO, because eyes are known to be damaged by intense light (which magical attacks emit), too.
if you noticed, Laguna's injured eye doesn't have a gloss like every other eye in the series and was dull. Which in anime pretty much means it's blind. Laguna probably just meant to tell Vice that it no longer left any distinct scars or something
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Old 2010-06-20, 10:09   Link #2115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
if you noticed, Laguna's injured eye doesn't have a gloss like every other eye in the series and was dull. Which in anime pretty much means it's blind. Laguna probably just meant to tell Vice that it no longer left any distinct scars or something
I don't have a DVD version, so I can only see that her left eye doesn't have lightspots like her right one, but deducing that she is blind just from that is a bit unfounded IMO... The light might have been falling from another angle, or something. And even if it is blind, it is still likely that the light emitted by Vice's bullet did the most damage to her vision nerves.
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Old 2010-06-20, 11:53   Link #2116
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Easier example: Nanoha's beams and bullets tear through or outright obliterate entire armies of steel drones in StrikerS. Steel drones are a tad more resistant to damage then human flesh. So yes, magic can very much do lethal damage.
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Old 2010-06-20, 12:27   Link #2117
Koveras Alvane
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Easier example: Nanoha's beams and bullets tear through or outright obliterate entire armies of steel drones in StrikerS. Steel drones are a tad more resistant to damage then human flesh. So yes, magic can very much do lethal damage.
That example only proves that magic is efficient against steel drones.
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Old 2010-06-20, 13:56   Link #2118
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That example only proves that magic is efficient against steel drones.
Fate putting her scythe to Nanoha's neck should be a pretty good example of magic being implied to kill.

Anyway, Magic in MGLN can kill better than it can stun, it's just it's not *just* there to kill.
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Old 2010-06-20, 14:42   Link #2119
Koveras Alvane
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Hm, I am still not entirely convinced, because their is no definite examples proving either point, but from the purely logical (albeit speculative) point of view, the argumentation for magic energy being potentially harmful to organics is sounder than the contrary.
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Old 2010-06-20, 17:43   Link #2120
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Hm, I am still not entirely convinced, because their is no definite examples proving either point, but from the purely logical (albeit speculative) point of view, the argumentation for magic energy being potentially harmful to organics is sounder than the contrary.


Or you can say that magic in order to be made to not harm organics demands such training that it is next to impossible for pretty much every mages.
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