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Old 2010-06-20, 15:03   Link #2101
Jan-Poo
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The explanation for the sealing of the doors exist only from a metaworld perspective. And to make things even more complicated it's retroactive...

Basically Erika did not use the seals, but Battler gave her the power to rewrite the story so that she used the seals on three rooms of her choice. Erika decided to retroactively seal the room where Battler was.

Because until that point that door wasn't sealed, Battler moved forward his plot using his piece Battler. The seal caused a big problem, because if the room was sealed then Battler couldn't possibly have moved outside the room.

After the sealing Erika told Battler that he'd better rewrite his move of placing a letter near the guesthouse door. Apparently Battler used his piece Battler to place that letter there, but since the the room was sealed the story had to be changed and the letter couldn't be there anymore.
However Battler refused to remove the letter because doing so would have been the same as admitting that it was Battler who placed it. Instead he decided to make a different change (probably by making so it was one of the other 1st twilight victims to do it).

Anyway the point is that the Game Master is able to make retroactive changes in the story (as long as they aren't denied in red) and Battler has been stupid enough to give part of this power to Erika.

EP6 also shows that the Game Master can make changes on the plot "on the fly", so if the detective closes to the truth, the GM just needs to devise another trick.
That's really a fair game, isn't it?

But Erika somehow can perform actions without the GM knowing. By doing so she can win by default by closing the GM into a logic error. Her best move was killing all the available "pieces" that Battler could use, making therefore impossible for something that he stated in red to have been executed by anyone.
Declaring in red something that is impossible leads to a logic error. The Game Master at that point gets trapped into a nightmare where he can't do anything but trying over and over again to find a way to explain how the "impossible" was "possible" without breaking any red.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-06-20 at 15:18.
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:07   Link #2102
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
*snip*
Ah, thanks for explaining it.

Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever from the perspective of the gameboard, so I'm just going to go ahead and say that I can make any theory I want not contradicted by red text.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But Erika somehow can perform actions without the GM knowing.
And because this makes no sense we have the Genius Battler theory, correct?
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:11   Link #2103
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway the point is that the Game Master is able to make retroactive changes in the story (as long as they aren't denied in red) and Battler has been stupid enough to give part of this power to Erika.

EP6 also shows that the Game Master can make changes on the plot "on the fly", so if the detective closes to the truth, the GM just needs to devise another trick.
That's really a fair game, isn't it?
I think Beatrice never had a hint of this because she was particularly effective in her design/writing of the gameboard. In addition to Battler being so ineffective.

Battler isn't that good, it seems. 8)


By the way, Battler placing the letter feels like he was recruited into the Beatrice faction for this particular game. There's no saying that he wasn't in other episodes, but it feels like the gameboard is a reflection of the meta-world and vice versa...

EDIT: Oh, and in addition, Beatrice being dead feels like the Beatrice faction no longer has any willpower or plan to carry out their schemes, so Battler has to step in. The Beatrice faction ends up consisting of merely their old ideas of pranks to spread the Legend of Beatrice and (Shannon, we assume) someone's plans to put her love for Battler onto another 'Beatrice.'
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:14   Link #2104
Jan-Poo
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Yeah the "genius battler theory" states that in reality Battler knew everything, but he let Erika trap him into a logic error as a way to force Beatrice to regain her true self.

However then the whole story doesn't make sense. There are many scenes where we see Battler's perspective while trapped in the logic error. There you can see him, terrorized, panicked, and totally confused.

However no one was there to watch him, so why he had to fake it?

Surely he couldn't let Erika trap him in an unsolvable logic error. For this theory to work you need to think that Battler did know how to solve the logic error, else he'd risk to let Beatrice become her true self only to forever crying on Battler's trapped soul.


Quote:
By the way, Battler placing the letter feels like he was recruited into the Beatrice faction for this particular game. There's no saying that he wasn't in other episodes, but it feels like the gameboard is a reflection of the meta-world and vice versa...
I can't be 100% sure he was supposed to be the one placing the letter, but he did fake his death as a 1st twilight victim, so he's part of the fake serial murder plot this time.
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:39   Link #2105
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However no one was there to watch him, so why he had to fake it?
No one? Really? This is a serious metafictional issue, you know.

Let us, remember the magical battle between Virgilia and Beatrice in Ep3, as the first scene where the issue is brought up to the forefront. Battler is not there to see it. We nevertheless, read about it in a book which we generally assume is seen from the Battler's point of view when possible. Meta-Battler then reacts to this scene, so our questions on whether he saw this scene as we did or not are solved - he did, and he complains about it.

Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler are known to be in some ways identical and in other ways distinct, which allows Dlanor in Ep5 say "until now you have been the detective" while addressing the Meta-Battler -- but then Meta-Battler interprets this phrase as if it means both him and Piece-Battler as a joint entity. (Status of "being the culprit" would make absolutely no sense for Meta-Battler if Piece-Battler was not involved)

But in Ep5 and Ep6, Erika has been declared the detective. Would this not mean that Meta-Erika has access to the entire narrative as it is presented to us? If it wouldn't, what makes Erika so special that she does not get this privilege when Meta-Battler apparently does?

And if it would, then it is crucial for Battler to be as terrified, panicked and confused as possible while Erika's watching him from one layer and trying to corner him from another.
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:55   Link #2106
Jan-Poo
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The battle between Beatrice and Virgilia is not a good example, because that happens in the game as a fake scene.

Granted that the metaworld isn't a real world, and we don't actually fully understand what it is, I don't think we have any clear example of a fake scene in the metaworld.

That's why, as of now, the metaworld scenes are more reliable than the game scenes. In the game we know that there is a Game Master who can lie about it. But about the metaworld, who is lying and to whom?
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Old 2010-06-20, 16:20   Link #2107
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's why, as of now, the metaworld scenes are more reliable than the game scenes. In the game we know that there is a Game Master who can lie about it. But about the metaworld, who is lying and to whom?
The problem here is the definition of the word 'lying'. You seem to be settled on defining lying as 'misrepresenting the truth'.

But of course we all know that the island of Rokkenjima is fictional, no matter what kind of prototypes it gets, that Ushiromiya family never existed (with names like these, wouldn't be surprised they couldn't exist if they tried) and the metaworld itself is an entity even more fictional than that.

To get anywhere in our attempts at literary criticism (because that's what it really is, even if we aren't being very scientific about it) we must assume a certain reality underneath the fiction, with the fiction being a presumably imperfect account of that reality, by suspending disbelief. That works fine for on-the-board scenes, because they are minimally different from the world as it is given to us through senses. Since we have the author-Beatrice on the scene and reader-Battler, it's clear who's lying to whom.

But once we get to see Featherinne, the logic is no longer so straight. Are we reading the book about Battler talking to Beatrice, or are we reading a book about Ange reading a book aloud to Featherinne, in which book Battler is telling a story to Erika?

With everyone in the chain aware that the chain exists and possibly lying for the people more than once removed down the chain, well, anyone could be lying to us.
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Old 2010-06-20, 16:20   Link #2108
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's why, as of now, the metaworld scenes are more reliable than the game scenes. In the game we know that there is a Game Master who can lie about it. But about the metaworld, who is lying and to whom?
Why do you think that scene took place in the metaworld? Meta-Battler was shown to be in the chapel getting married to Erika at the time. Meanwhile, Battler's flailing was linked to a noise that was heard on the game board, and he was rescued by Kanon on the magic layer. So shouldn't we interpret that whole performance in the guest room as a magic layer scene?
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Old 2010-06-20, 16:58   Link #2109
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
With everyone in the chain aware that the chain exists and possibly lying for the people more than once removed down the chain, well, anyone could be lying to us.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why do you think that scene took place in the metaworld? Meta-Battler was shown to be in the chapel getting married to Erika at the time. Meanwhile, Battler's flailing was linked to a noise that was heard on the game board, and he was rescued by Kanon on the magic layer. So shouldn't we interpret that whole performance in the guest room as a magic layer scene?
Yah, EP6 was really messed up in terms of 'spaces.' Of course, I think Ryukishi did this on purpose. He carefully set up the situation in EP1-4 and tossed it out in EP6 to show you that it's of no consequence. Sorta like how in EP1-2 you thought the epitaph was somehow crucial to the mystery and therefore would never be solved but in EP3 he just tossed it out there.

Anyways, as I noticed before how the Meta-world and the gameboard appear to reflect each other even though the narrative has been telling us that the Meta-World supposedly 'controls' the gameboard...

It seems more that all these 'layers' are not really reality but more like Metaphors. So in essence, we have one big Metaphor-space with lots of co-existing metaphors... to help explain the mystery.
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Old 2010-06-20, 17:25   Link #2110
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh, and in addition, Beatrice being dead feels like the Beatrice faction no longer has any willpower or plan to carry out their schemes, so Battler has to step in. The Beatrice faction ends up consisting of merely their old ideas of pranks to spread the Legend of Beatrice and (Shannon, we assume) someone's plans to put her love for Battler onto another 'Beatrice.'
I've been feeling more like Erika has been preventing the letters that are at the core of these schemes from appearing. (although I haven't read episode 6 to confirm that). It's kind of like Erika meeting Maria prevents Beatrice's letters from being delivered, and that makes the stories change somehow.

EDIT: If you think about it though since the letters were never delivered no one should be aware of that promise from Beatrice in episode 5 anyway.
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Old 2010-06-20, 17:33   Link #2111
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Oh yes. Erika is a huge disrupting influence on the original plans, letters included. Even in other mystery novels detectives completely disrupt the culprit's plans. So Erika is much more effective than Battler, although she is not 100% effective like a real detective from another series.


I'm just noticing that the Meta-world and the gameboard were written as if they reflect each other in events. I figure after 6 games that Ryukishi is using energy to make sure this shows in the text for some purpose, rather than as random chance...

So in that case, I'm just thinking that if Beatrice died in the Meta-World that that must have some kind of effect on the gameboard beyond just the 'Beatrice isn't here to set it up.' The way the stories could be made must have been limited somehow...
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Old 2010-06-20, 18:24   Link #2112
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why do you think that scene took place in the metaworld? Meta-Battler was shown to be in the chapel getting married to Erika at the time. Meanwhile, Battler's flailing was linked to a noise that was heard on the game board, and he was rescued by Kanon on the magic layer. So shouldn't we interpret that whole performance in the guest room as a magic layer scene?
Was gonna respond with this, yeah.

The scenes of Piece-Battler trapped in the room just happen to be a part of Meta-Battler's story about that particular gameboard. And if we interpret it that way, then Genius Battler HAS to be true; as the writer of the story, such a scene could not exist without him telling it to us.

His TIPS even say that he's ascended to a level of existence even higher than the Meta-World, if I recall correctly.
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Old 2010-06-20, 19:45   Link #2113
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I can't say with certainty that I was the one who invented Genius Battler, but I am its biggest proponent, so...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah the "genius battler theory" states that in reality Battler knew everything, but he let Erika trap him into a logic error as a way to force Beatrice to regain her true self.
That's my hypothesis exactly, yes. I suppose it's possible for some variant to exist where his objective was somehow different, but I can't say why and Beatrice's revival as a direct consequence of Battler's peril seems to support it.
Quote:
However then the whole story doesn't make sense. There are many scenes where we see Battler's perspective while trapped in the logic error. There you can see him, terrorized, panicked, and totally confused.

However no one was there to watch him, so why he had to fake it?
It's been brought up by Kaisos and Oliver, but I should note that I see no particular reason to believe that Lambdadelta at least, and possibly also Bernkastel, are capable of witnessing the scene somehow. On a meta-fictional layer, one of any number of characters or fictional or real authors could have placed those scenes there.
Quote:
Surely he couldn't let Erika trap him in an unsolvable logic error. For this theory to work you need to think that Battler did know how to solve the logic error, else he'd risk to let Beatrice become her true self only to forever crying on Battler's trapped soul.
Again, the only reason Battler would ever deliberately permit a logic error, assuming he knows what is going to happen, is because he knows it is solvable, and that he is betting on Beatrice solving it. Moreover, he wants it to look unsolvable, yet appeal to Beatrice in some way that the "true" Beatrice would recognize something in it which would assuredly cause her - and no one else present - to understand it.

To that end, everyone but Beatrice must be absolutely fooled under all circumstances. This means Battler must not only fool Meta-Erika as observer and opponent, but Lambda and Bern as biased observers, Ronove and Virgilia (because he has to fool allies as well as enemies, though who knows if they're playing close to the vest on what they know), and very possibly the readers themselves in the meta-fictional context, that is, Featherinne and ANGE. Obviously, if Genius Battler is true, ryukishi as the top-level author also intended to fool the top-level reader, that is us. We are made to believe Battler is not capable of this even though:
  • We are told he understands The Truth and other characters don't to anywhere near his level of understanding.
  • He is the Game Master and as a result is constructing the story, so he ought to know everything going on in it. While it is not entirely provable that every GM previous has had the ability to do so, the degree of latitude taken by Beatrice and Lambda highly suggests it. And logically, it doesn't make any sense that the author of the game board could be fooled unless Author Theory is butting in and the author is commenting on Meta-Battler's understanding of The Truth itself. It might be doing that, of course.
  • He has every opportunity to yield ground and escape an impossible situation well before Erika takes any action which could possibly trap him. He would not lose the game if he took any of those escapes. He deliberately chooses a course of action which appears to be a certain loss, even though he has multiple opportunities to keep fighting. In fact, the cornering doesn't begin to make sense unless and until Battler is "maneuvered" into relying on one of the other FT victims as a rescue option. He would have to be phenomenally thick to earnestly fall into this trap, but it makes perfect sense if he knew they were dead, as it makes his situation appear hopeless. If he knows they're dead, he also knows Kanon is available, which means he knows the Logic Error isn't unsolvable. But he knows Erika can't know this, and somehow, he knows Beatrice will be the only person who can figure this out.
  • He talks about risky play while he is maneuvering himself into the Logic Error. This makes no sense. He's not taking any risks, he's being outright cornered and he should easily realize this. No one takes a stupid risk unless they have something to gain. Without Genius Battler, he has nothing to gain. The only excuse is that he's willing to let himself be destroyed as a point of pride. Battler has never been shown to have that much excess of pride. He is stubborn, but he knows when he's losing.
Basically, non-Genius Battler asks us to believe Battler has learned absolutely nothing. That's directly contradictory to what ep5 told us.

If we want to buy that Battler is enlightened, we must concede it may be possible for him to come up with an enlightened plan. For that matter, the Kinzo-Battler parallels scattered through ep6 must have a literary purpose. What has ep1-4 been telling us Kinzo is doing? Whether it's true or not, what is he portrayed as doing? Doesn't that say enough?
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Old 2010-06-20, 20:30   Link #2114
Shiro Kaisen
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*snip*
I really thought the same thing as I read Umineko 6. It's totally absurd for Battler to intentionally do exactly what Erika wants him to every single time. I mean, there's no way he thought Erika would fall for fake deaths as the major trick TWICE IN A ROW. After that was exactly what caused her downfall in the previous game, Battler would have to be even less competent than he was in Episode 2 to be earnestly trying.

Furthermore, if Kanon is Kinzo, (which is the only solution to the Logic Error I can think of that doesn't involve a certain irritating theory) the only ones who would know would be Grandfather, Meta-Battler, Kanon himself, and Kanon's Beatrice - Shannon. Even if Erika is Shannon, Meta Erika is not inside Shannon's head. So Meta Erika wouldn't know. But Beatrice would, so that's why Battler used this mystery. It doesn't reveal the true nature of Beatrice, which is something Battler expressly refuses to do. What it does do is call on something no one else could know.
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Old 2010-06-20, 20:34   Link #2115
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There's still a few outside-chance things I think would be hilarious if confirmed in ep7:
  • Erika was assuming Shkanon was true and Battler/Beatrice realized it wasn't.
  • Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon is the murderer. What a tweest!
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Old 2010-06-20, 20:40   Link #2116
Shiro Kaisen
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There's still a few outside-chance things I think would be hilarious if confirmed in ep7:
  • Erika was assuming Shkanon was true and Battler/Beatrice realized it wasn't.
  • Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon is the murderer. What a tweest!
I really think it's possible that Battler was trolling with Shkanon. There's actually a basis for that theory, too.
  • Zepar and Furfur are Battler's furniture.
  • Battler is distinctly against revealing Beatrice's true nature and plans to keep the truth secret. The scenes with Zepar and Furfur are so absurdly heavy handed that it's hardly "protecting the truth."
  • If Shkanontrice was true, Battler would be basically completely revealing that for everyone watching. Which is the opposite of what he plans to do.
  • Battler is now a witch. And a witch rite of passage is a master troll.
  • It definitely falls into Genius Battler.
  • It could be planning for the future, because if Bern believes Shkanon is true, he would be able to completely mislead her and then yank the carpet out from under her .
  • It'd be hilarious to watch 70% of the fanbase feel incredibly stupid.
  • If Erika doesn't exist, there's no room for Shkanon in the headcount unless we have a Culprit X real Beatrice.

I don't think it's LIKELY, but it's certainly possible. Another awesome troll would simply be that both Erika-Doesn't-Exist and Shkanontrice are true, simply because the two factions don't exactly get along.
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Old 2010-06-20, 20:46   Link #2117
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When Kaisos mentioned the theory that Shannon's real name was Erika Ushiromiya I immediately thought of this theory Erika Ushiromiya dresses up as the two servants we know and love. Neither of whom actually exist. In that way both theories could be true in a sense.
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Old 2010-06-20, 21:00   Link #2118
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Sentou, the ace detective, appears! The argument that Erika could be dressing up as a servant is more or less pointless. First off, There is nothing to indicate that Erika could manage to disguise herself as Shannon or Kanon Furthermore, There is no foreshadowing that shows Erika putting on Kanon's sexy beret, or Shannon's maid uniform.

Trying to get past Shkanon is a noble task, as quite frankly, I have no idea what is going on with three characters because of it, but you'll need more than that!

There's only one theory that I've seen be a suitable alternate to Shkanon in regards to the locked room SNAFU in episode 6, and I'm sure you guys have shot it down before: Mainly, the idea that Jessica is the second Battler.
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Old 2010-06-20, 21:02   Link #2119
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There's only one theory that I've seen be a suitable alternate to Shkanon in regards to the locked room SNAFU in episode 6, and I'm sure you guys have shot it down before: Mainly, the idea that Jessica is the second Battler.
Nope that's my theory also and nobody has shot it down yet. Some people think the mothers day TIP debunks it, but I didn't feel that way when I read it.

Jessica's and Genji's names never being referred to in red in episode 6 when the red says all names refer to the actual people is what I thought lent credit to it.
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Old 2010-06-20, 21:05   Link #2120
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Sentou, the ace detective, appears! The argument that Erika could be dressing up as a servant is more or less pointless. First off, There is nothing to indicate that Erika could manage to disguise herself as Shannon or Kanon Furthermore, There is no foreshadowing that shows Erika putting on Kanon's sexy beret, or Shannon's maid uniform.

Trying to get past Shkanon is a noble task, as quite frankly, I have no idea what is going on with three characters because of it, but you'll need more than that!

There's only one theory that I've seen be a suitable alternate to Shkanon in regards to the locked room SNAFU in episode 6, and I'm sure you guys have shot it down before: Mainly, the idea that Jessica is the second Battler.
Erika doesn't need to be dressing up as Shannon for Shannon to be Erika.
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