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Old 2010-06-21, 16:19   Link #11381
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Not necessarilly. That's only if you beleive the red lowers it to 16 people, which it doesn't specifically say, and there are actually 10 different theories that solve that red that we've discussed.

We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

If you put emphasis on "even if" it means the number is seventeen regardless of whether Erika is introduced or not.
Ah. What I meant was more or less in regards to the issue of three people being confirmed for entering the room, Battler, Erika, and Kanon The idea being that Erika doesn't count as a person, so Jessica could fit in there to fulfill the quota of three. (Battler, "Battler", and Kanon.) But with that said, I forget that Shannon and Kanon are different people in this version of events, so Jessica doesn't need to be Battler... does she?
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Old 2010-06-21, 16:23   Link #11382
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Maria dies in Episode 6 before anyone is shown to have solved the epitaph.
I haven't read Ep6, but I seem to remember something about Erika trying to do everything she did in Ep5 all over again...?

Furthermore, Battler has the head's ring in Ep6, correct?
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Old 2010-06-21, 16:24   Link #11383
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Ah. What I meant was more or less in regards to the issue of three people being confirmed for entering the room, Battler, Erika, and Kanon The idea being that Erika doesn't count as a person, so Jessica could fit in there to fulfill the quota of three. (Battler, "Battler", and Kanon.) But with that said, I forget that Shannon and Kanon are different people in this version of events, so Jessica doesn't need to be Battler... does she?
That doesn't have to be true either. Sure Jessica could be Erika in that case since she's freer in the sense that her name isn't referred to, but so is Genji.

And I'll repeat it again

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=10506

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If the fifth person Erika killed was Kanon there aren't any problems with the red, but she probably thought it was Battler when she killed him...
Anyone in the first twilight can be out to murder Battler if this is true.
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Old 2010-06-21, 16:39   Link #11384
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I haven't read Ep6, but I seem to remember something about Erika trying to do everything she did in Ep5 all over again...?

Furthermore, Battler has the head's ring in Ep6, correct?
I'll just explain the premise of Episode 6, then. Major spoilers if you don't want to hear it.

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-06-21, 17:05   Link #11385
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
I'll just explain the premise of Episode 6, then. Major spoilers if you don't want to hear it.
I already know all this. Thanks anyway, though.
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Old 2010-06-21, 17:32   Link #11386
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's the timing that sticks in my craw. It has to be a very recent event. Recent enough to know everyone would not be leaving Sunday morning. They have to be sure Kawabata's unlikely to come, and if we believe him in ep4 it was an entirely personal decision on his part not to risk the storm when he knows he was competent to do so. So nobody influenced him not to come. But what if he did?
Actually, I have a nice way how this fits, using your own proposition that the bomb isn't designed to kill everyone but accidentally does anyway.

Kinzo have indeed set up us the bomb as his last gift to the family he was so dispeased with, because they have failed to solve the epitaph in the entire time it was on display, despite his honest desire to see a fitting successor before he is dead.

Kinzo originally hoped that Krauss would be the one to solve it and prove his primacy through action. Krauss has betrayed this hope, never once taking the epitaph seriously, and now bears the brunt of Kinzo's anger. As a result, Kinzo sets up the bomb to eradicate Krauss and his family only, once someone else has discovered the gold during a regular family conference, which is sure to one day inevitably happen.


If whoever solves the epitaph is also lucky like Kinzo was, they'll be in Kuwadorian at the time the bomb goes off anyway, or at least, that would be the idea.

P.S. One interesting consequence of this would be that the Beatrice of Ep4 telling Battler "Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. " can only be either the bomb itself or... more or less anyone who had the time window to find the gold.
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Old 2010-06-21, 17:49   Link #11387
Sentou
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With the bomb theory... well, Kinzo is dead a whole year before this whole thing occurs. Meaning someone like Nanjo and/or Genji would be in charge of the whole affair. I suppose Piece Beato could also be in charge of the affair, but her lack of sanity makes me doubt it.

You know, I was rereading episode 5, and there is an interesting thing I thought of. Jessica was called by Battler to annouce that he would come on the island... AFTER Kinzo is dead. Therefore, I assume that At the time of his death, Ushiromiya Kinzo had no way of knowing or involving Battler in his plans.

Considering that Battler is THE target of most of Beatrice's actions, I think it's rather clear that Kinzo's benefactor and Beatrice are not QUITE one and the same.

Unless, of course, Kinzo made arrangements to kill his whole family in case Battler appeared on the island, but that seems unlikely verging on impossible.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:12   Link #11388
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
With the bomb theory... well, Kinzo is dead a whole year before this whole thing occurs.
Actually, we don't know that.

While there are lots of hints to that, and normally, this is what we would have to assume if we had no counterhints... but we actually do have one very heavy counterhint.

That is, Kinzo's body itself.

If the events of Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy indeed happened as described in Ep5, keeping Kinzo's body around in any fashion is highly counterproductive. The plan is described to declare Kinzo missing, but having a body around for that is not required, and having it discovered brings the house of cards down. Ample opportunities to get rid of the body without alerting anyone exist, differing only in the amount of respect offered to the dead -- dump it into the ocean, bury it somewhere on the other end of the island, incinerate it and throw the ashes off a cliff. To date, no convincing explanation of why Kinzo's body is kept around where it can be accessed and easily burned by multiple characters has been offered.

The form of polydactily Kinzo actually has (actual bones in both toes, which is required for them to be visible once he is burned) is far more rare than the characters state, (they cite the statistics for 'any' polydactily) possibly making his corpse completely unique in this moment on Earth, which leaves little doubt that the burned corpse is indeed Kinzo.

Since there is no good reason that Kinzo's body has to be kept around for a year, it follows that it having only been around for a few days or weeks at most is quite plausible. There is no reason why, during the 1985 conference, he could not have actually behaved as described, i.e. avoided everyone. It is also possible that he has been bedridden, and it is this fact that was actually concealed in 1985 at his insistence.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:21   Link #11389
Sentou
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Ah, but remember, Kinzo is dead. Since Battler said it in the "language of love", and since Featherine really pushed the whole "love" thing, I thing this is something we can take holistically.

But I can offer one good explanation to keep Kinzo's body around: Mainly, so Krauss and Natsuhi could escape from accusations of foul play.

Imagine, you pretend like someone is alive and he is actually dead, there is an element of RISK involved in doing that. If the rest of the family confronted them, and if Natsuhi and Krauss could not produce even a body, things would be very bad for them. In addition, they could also use the body to keep Jessica in the dark.

I also propose that the culprit could have kept the body around to maintain the illusion of the witch.

Episode 4, for a simple example. Kinzo is challenging everyone to Pokemon battles, but if Detective Battler never sees his body, he would be even less likely to believe in what just happened.

It's true that only the red text is the absolute truth, but Kinzo's body existing is not an indication that he had died recently.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:34   Link #11390
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His point isn't that Kinzo's not dead, but that he may not really have been dead as long as anybody says he has. We have red that he's dead when the game starts, but the game doesn't start a year back.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:35   Link #11391
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Furthermore the instant death definition describes how your incapable of action after being attacked. So it's likely that Kinzo was murdered, which would make episode 5 unreliable.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:39   Link #11392
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
His point isn't that Kinzo's not dead, but that he may not really have been dead as long as anybody says he has. We have red that he's dead when the game starts, but the game doesn't start a year back.
And all the pre-conference scenes in Ep5 being fake would clear up some of the contradictions surrounding the adults' behaviour (Krauss and Kyrie most notably), as well as explain the reason for the magic-world music.

Seriously, did anyone else notice that? Why the hell is Happy Maria, of all songs, playing when Krauss explains his financial troubles?
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:43   Link #11393
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And all the pre-conference scenes in Ep5 being fake would clear up some of the contradictions surrounding the adults' behaviour (Krauss and Kyrie most notably), as well as explain the reason for the magic-world music.

Seriously, did anyone else notice that? Why the hell is Happy Maria, of all songs, playing when Krauss explains his financial troubles?
I thought it was because of how silly Krauss was during the scene... and how much the song fit with silly moments. ^^;
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:47   Link #11394
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
But I can offer one good explanation to keep Kinzo's body around: Mainly, so Krauss and Natsuhi could escape from accusations of foul play.

Imagine, you pretend like someone is alive and he is actually dead, there is an element of RISK involved in doing that. If the rest of the family confronted them, and if Natsuhi and Krauss could not produce even a body, things would be very bad for them. In addition, they could also use the body to keep Jessica in the dark.
I'm afraid this is not convincing. Certainly not convincing enough to put off getting rid of the body for an entire year.

Since, as we can see clearly in Ep5, nobody bats an eye at the idea of Kinzo jumping out of the window in the middle of the night to take a walk, any discovery of Kinzo being missing when Natsuhi and Krauss are saying he is not involves no risk whatsoever, since it can be dismissed in the exact same manner. They were supposedly planning to declare him missing anyway, weren't they? Going missing during the family conference with the children he is supremely dissatisfied with is actually more believable. Took a walk, fell off a cliff, washed off into the ocean by the typhoon, go fish.

The body is not useful in any manner to keep Jessica in the dark, other than by flattening it and using it as a curtain. Any interaction Jessica can possibly have with the body involves her discovery that Kinzo is dead. Non-discovery that Kinzo is dead involves avoiding Jessica ever having any interactions with his body.

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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I also propose that the culprit could have kept the body around to maintain the illusion of the witch.
Oh yeah, that was what I said when I described that the only place remaining to keep Kinzo's body is in the bathtub of his study, marinating in formaldehyde and glutaraldehyde. Sure.

But this also involves Natsuhi not only being in on the illusion of the witch, but also convincing Krauss to also participate in it, dishonouring Kinzo's body to the limit while not under pressure, and concocting a plan that somehow could not work when Ange was on the island in 1985 and Battler was not, but works in 1986 when the opposite is true. And visiting the body regularly to give daily reports in the meantime.

I'm afraid that argument doesn't work very well until something that is actually essential enough for the illusion of the witch is proposed that merits this mess. I have, so far, failed to find a sufficiently good idea, which is why I'm actually considering the opposite possibility, i.e. that the body is recent rather than a year old. There is indeed no doubt that Kinzo is dead before the game begins, this much has been said in red. There is, however, no red dismissing the possibility that he has died recently rather than a year ago.
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Old 2010-06-21, 18:49   Link #11395
Kaisos Erranon
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There is, however, no red dismissing the possibility that he has died recently rather than a year ago.
Battler even brings something like this up, in blue.

Could count as a hint, I suppose.
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Old 2010-06-21, 19:34   Link #11396
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Furthermore the instant death definition describes how your incapable of action after being attacked. So it's likely that Kinzo was murdered, which would make episode 5 unreliable.
Well if we're anal about Beatrice's definition, no one actually dies, ever, unless they're attacked first. I don't quite think that's what it means.

EDIT: Also a literal reading of Beatrice's definition allows for someone to be "instantly killed" and still be alive.
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Old 2010-06-21, 19:56   Link #11397
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EDIT: Also a literal reading of Beatrice's definition allows for someone to be "instantly killed" and still be alive.
If you read it literally it also allows people to "take action" as long as it's not of their own will.
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Old 2010-06-21, 20:40   Link #11398
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You know, this is why I thought there was an incongruity between EP1 opening and EP5 opening. EP1 starts of with Nanjo declaring that Kinzo has X months to live... EP5 starts off with Nanjo saying "it was sudden." ... What? I thought Nanjo just said he had X months to live? Don't tell me he's lying again to cover up what must have been a 'sudden' murder? Ok, so maybe he had X months to live and suddenly had a heart attack. But people seemed genuinely surprised... if someone was declared only to have X months to live could they really be so shocked unless it was something like the day after?

So, yah, it does seem suspicious.

Oh yah, I took Happy Maria being played at Krauss' plan as an indication that 'magic' is being worked. Not intentionally, of course, but the end result being something that Beatrice found out is the source of 'magic.' ... seems somewhat plausible...
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Old 2010-06-21, 22:09   Link #11399
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Nanjo and the servants(except Gohda) are lying coz Natsuhi told them to. This is why Nanjo is in the island at time of the conferences. Kinzo's doctor telling the siblings that Kinzo is ok and still living so that no one finds out that Kinzo died.
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Old 2010-06-21, 22:55   Link #11400
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Nanjo and the servants(except Gohda) are lying coz Natsuhi told them to. This is why Nanjo is in the island at time of the conferences. Kinzo's doctor telling the siblings that Kinzo is ok and still living so that no one finds out that Kinzo died.
But why are they surprised when Kinzo dies if Nanjo said he didn't have long to live? They ought to at least have expected it, if he honestly said so.
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