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Old 2010-06-22, 17:55   Link #11441
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Looking for Shannon's model scene to work from to discover her point of view, I'd pick the one where George saves her with that talk about Earl Grey.
But there are no magic scenes like that at all.

Although, if Shannon is Beatrice, I very much doubt that the personality shown to us in the game is any use in determining her POV.

Actually, I have a question for you. Whose POV do you consider the Krauss/Goat-kun fight to be taking place from?

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
My current guess is Rosa, though it's not settled, because this would imply Rosa sees reality much like Maria, which probably can't be true.
I dunno. Schizophrenia runs in families, right?

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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
But perhaps I've digressed. I feel like the fantasy scenes at least have consistent characterization, unless of course it's shown that a particular character is possessed or something similar.
Or they're Krauss. Note the extreme difference in characterization between Ep1 and Ep5. Or hell, Ep4.
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Old 2010-06-22, 18:17   Link #11442
Kylon99
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If we had to pick people for EP4 George and Jessica fights, I'd pick the opposite person for each scene.

For example, Oliver said George looked like a dictator, ruler. The ones who know they are in power and are not afraid to use that power. I'd say Jessica was the one who could view George as that, maybe unconsciously.

As for an opposite, Jessica's fight with Ronove? She seemed stubborn even in defeat. She's the type that will fight even Demon Lords even if she has no chance. I'd say that could be George's opinion of Jessica.

In other words, each of them know the difficulty of facing off with each other for the headship.

How about that? 8)
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Old 2010-06-22, 18:43   Link #11443
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But there are no magic scenes like that at all.
The idea is to watch all scenes for sign of this. It's not that magic scenes are subjective, it's that all scenes are subjective and some of them are magical because they are subjective and use the point of view that prefers to see magic.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, I have a question for you. Whose POV do you consider the Krauss/Goat-kun fight to be taking place from?
Jessica. Though this works consistently only if Jessica is a Beatrice and shares in the magic, because the scene is magical, and that is the problem with the whole approach.

Not even Natsuhi would think of Krauss in this particular way, what she likes about him is definitely not that. Note that while in Battler's presence Jessica says she has zero respect for her parents, she's a tsundere through and through, and offscreen, in TIPS in particular, is shown to be seeing them in a very positive light. If any other character would be interpreting Jessica's actions, they would not see her as gentle to her parents, (as she apparently doesn't do that in public) so I would take in particular the Mother's Day TIPS as a benchmark.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I dunno. Schizophrenia runs in families, right?
It's complicated. Clearly hereditary mental disorders do exist, (bipolar disorder for example is hereditary with environmental triggers that develop it) and asking if you have any mental disorders in the family is the first thing a psychiatrist does, but causes of schizophrenia in particular can be varied, and heredity is currently only thought to be one of a multitude of contributing factors. The very definition of schizophrenia is currently being put into question, as it's essentially an umbrella term for a lot of loosely connected and very different problems which have very little in common across the entire body of people diagnosed as schizophrenic. And the DID/MPD is not part of the diagnostic criteria for it either.

I'm pretty sure that whatever mental disorder history the Ushiromiya family has, schizophrenia it ain't. But, to actually see the world as something pretty and colourful, being schizophrenic and even having a mental disorder is not required, desperately wanting to is often enough.
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Old 2010-06-22, 18:45   Link #11444
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
In other words, each of them know the difficulty of facing off with each other for the headship.

How about that? 8)
That actually makes sense. The problem remains the whole weak point of Editor Theory - if the Gamemaster is not allowed to mix magic into the viewpoint of a character, they have to believe in magic to see anything magical, which limits things a lot.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:08   Link #11445
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That actually makes sense. The problem remains the whole weak point of Editor Theory - if the Gamemaster is not allowed to mix magic into the viewpoint of a character, they have to believe in magic to see anything magical, which limits things a lot.
Well why does your theory say the GM can't mix magic in? I think it said the GM can't lie about a point of view, but why can't they embellish it or stretch the scope of the scene as long as the result is the same?

As for who would have a magic point of view. George seems to be hinted to have some occult interests or his own sources about it. So he has some knowledge about the occult.

Jessica doesn't seem to beleive in that kind of thing though. She rebukes those ideas far more than George does.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:19   Link #11446
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But, to actually see the world as something pretty and colourful, being schizophrenic and even having a mental disorder is not required, desperately wanting to is often enough.
Actually, I was mostly joking. But the family clearly has some kind of mental disorder.

The Ep2 magic-world TIPS go into great detail about Kinzo's "black blood", and how Maria is the strongest inheritor of the blood in the whole family.

Kinzo and Maria are presented as the most delusional characters in the story.

A connection?
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:22   Link #11447
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well why does your theory say the GM can't mix magic in? I think it said the GM can't lie about a point of view, but why can't they embellish it or stretch the scope of the scene as long as the result is the same?
Because that allows us to erase the structural difference between a 'magic scene', a 'fake scene' and a 'factual scene' (we often can't tell which of them is which anyway, can we?) and still offers some kind of a method to pick them apart.

While the idea that it is allowed to play several points of view simultaneously may be equivalent to what you just described, it complicates analysis a lot.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:34   Link #11448
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In other words, it's a hypothetical limitation that explains the co-existence of fantasy and non-fantasy scenes.

The explanation is that the GM cannot create scenes themselves; only harvest them from observer viewpoints. Without this we were at a loss to explain why the GM sometimes represented a scene so fantastically, sometimes so normally. We were coming up to the answer of, "because he/she felt like it," so it was a bit unsatisfying.


This theory IS somewhat in line with what we've been told about how magic works (or at least what Beatrice discovered about magic) that it requires an observer. And that observer is frequently Maria; but... it could be other people too!


By the way, this is a bit interesting. In the story, the GM is presented as near omniscient. But on the higher level with the Author theory we know the author can't be omniscient; in fact she/they are missing some vital pieces of info, or wants to reservere some kind of 'surprise' for us. So, I think we've seen some of this play out; the GM looks like they're omniscient but is prevented from presenting some info because of the Author's interest.

For example, the count of people always being "No more than..." was some kind of reserve surprise the author held in check. Both the Author Theory author and Ryukishi had to do this. Also, I think why Battler ended up not stating everyone's name in the neighbouring room and Erika had to switch it to 'Everyone else' had more than just Erika vs. Battler implications. I suspect an Author-level surprise coming there. 8)
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:39   Link #11449
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • Even though the text is monstrously long, the actual number of characters who's points of view get any screen time has to be limited. It is basically very hard for the author to see a scene from more than two viewpoints in the first place, so the actual limit of used viewpoints is no more than five or six.
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
While the idea that it is allowed to play several points of view simultaneously may be equivalent to what you just described, it complicates analysis a lot.
I haven't noticed 6 points of view going on at once, but I have noticed maybe 2 or 3 different narrators in a single scene. (Like I said that closet scene in episode 5 has some funky stuff going on) So that might actually be happening. I'd call that kind of narration that I've observed 'fractionation' because it can switch at random and you might not always notice it the first, or even the second time, you read it.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:43   Link #11450
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I haven't noticed 6 points of view going on at once, but I have noticed maybe 2 or 3 different narrators in a single scene. (Like I said that closet scene in episode 5 has some funky stuff going on) So that might actually be happening. I'd call that kind of narration that I've observed 'fractionation' because it can switch at random and you might not always notice it the first, or even the second time, you read it.
I always cringe with the constant narrator jumping. I remember in English courses being taught that that was a Bad Thing(tm) to do. So I wonder if Ryukishi is doing this by accident because he is 'merely' a doujin author? Or... does he have some master plan...

You know, some of us have already severely underestimated him before, missing out on vital clues in the EP2 OP where he specifically told us there are no Dine rules but there are Knox rules... ;__;

I will not underestimate him again.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:43   Link #11451
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kinzo and Maria are presented as the most delusional characters in the story.

A connection?
I'm not sure graphomania is a mental disorder, though the idea is tempting and they definitely both have that.

A bit more seriously, no idea. Maria's symptoms, if she has any actual disorder, (which I doubt) are of an autistic spectrum disorder, and they aren't very pronounced. Kinzo only clear symptoms are being quite sociopathic and subtly paranoid, which aren't even close, and are not sufficiently pronounced to get him a diagnosis either.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:55   Link #11452
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I haven't noticed 6 points of view going on at once, but I have noticed maybe 2 or 3 different narrators in a single scene. (Like I said that closet scene in episode 5 has some funky stuff going on) So that might actually be happening. I'd call that kind of narration that I've observed 'fractionation' because it can switch at random and you might not always notice it the first, or even the second time, you read it.
5-6 is my estimate of the number of viewpoints used seriously throughout the entire text at all, it's mostly based on the number of characters who are sufficiently well developed to actually provide a viable viewpoint. For writing what some character would think of a scene, you need to imagine a lot about them first, after all.

Whether it is possible to use two viewpoints simultaneously in a single scene, I'm not sure, but quick-jumping between them would in many cases work to conceal things, and be a sign of something fishy going on, as you've noted.
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Old 2010-06-22, 19:56   Link #11453
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I always cringe with the constant narrator jumping. I remember in English courses being taught that that was a Bad Thing(tm) to do.
Half the things English courses try to reinforce as Bad Things(tm) aren't so much "bad" as they are "against convention".

The narrator jumping may serve a purpose yet, as you say.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
A bit more seriously, no idea. Maria's symptoms, if she has any actual disorder, (which I doubt) are of an autistic spectrum disorder, and they aren't very pronounced. Kinzo only clear symptoms are being quite sociopathic and subtly paranoid, which aren't even close, and are not sufficiently pronounced to get him a diagnosis either.
I'll get back to you when I find my DSM.
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Old 2010-06-22, 20:12   Link #11454
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
If we had to pick people for EP4 George and Jessica fights, I'd pick the opposite person for each scene.

For example, Oliver said George looked like a dictator, ruler. The ones who know they are in power and are not afraid to use that power. I'd say Jessica was the one who could view George as that, maybe unconsciously.

As for an opposite, Jessica's fight with Ronove? She seemed stubborn even in defeat. She's the type that will fight even Demon Lords even if she has no chance. I'd say that could be George's opinion of Jessica.

In other words, each of them know the difficulty of facing off with each other for the headship.

How about that? 8)
I think we should note that: Kanon and Shannon are watching this scene from a prison cell with magic. Through a mirror if IIRC. And that kind of illustrates the "you don't have to be present to be a narrator" idea.
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Old 2010-06-22, 20:29   Link #11455
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think we should note that: Kanon and Shannon are watching this scene from a prison cell with magic. Through a mirror if IIRC. And that kind of illustrates the "you don't have to be present to be a narrator" idea.
Hey! Is that like the only other mention of a mirror other than the 'spiritual' mirror from the shrine or Natsuhi's mirror?

There's like no other mention of mirrors on the island, someone said, right? So... the idea that a mirror was used, maybe it's significant?

Cuz I haven't seen any one come up with an explanation regarding the mirrors yet... but they've been featured in several scenes in EP2, EP3 (I think) and EP6 already.
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Old 2010-06-22, 20:30   Link #11456
Oliver
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Sorry, backtracking back to Kinzo's corpse -- mostly for the record.

In Ep5, when Lambda challenges Battler to explain the scene of Kinzo in the rose garden that is dated at 5th October 1985, first Lambda says that Kinzo is already dead, which is ok, but then Battler rephrases it as Grandfather is dead at this point in time.

Since, as far as we know, red timing follows the timing of the displayed in-game scene to which red refers in context, that rephrasing unambiguously dates Kinzo's corpse to before the 5th October 1985 and the idea of Kinzo's corpse being recent is in this way prevented in red.

Guess we really need to figure out why the hell did they keep the body around for a year, then.
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Old 2010-06-22, 20:35   Link #11457
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Hey! Is that like the only other mention of a mirror other than the 'spiritual' mirror from the shrine or Natsuhi's mirror?

There's like no other mention of mirrors on the island, someone said, right? So... the idea that a mirror was used, maybe it's significant?

Cuz I haven't seen any one come up with an explanation regarding the mirrors yet... but they've been featured in several scenes in EP2, EP3 (I think) and EP6 already.
Natsuhi's mirror gets a small mention in episode 1 actually. Natsuhi says it was in something like a pouch so it's probably really, really, really, tiny.

Don't think it was mentioned in ep3 though.
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Old 2010-06-22, 20:40   Link #11458
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
There's like no other mention of mirrors on the island, someone said, right? So... the idea that a mirror was used, maybe it's significant?

Cuz I haven't seen any one come up with an explanation regarding the mirrors yet... but they've been featured in several scenes in EP2, EP3 (I think) and EP6 already.
  • Natsuhi's mirror, first mentioned in Ep1. Natsuhi puts it into her pocket to give Jessica and forgets for the rest of the episode.
  • Shrine mirror, first mentioned in Ep2.
  • Three sided mirror, mentioned in Ep4.
  • Amakusa's rear view mirror, mentioned in Ep4.

Maria's diary is called a "mirror of heart as it is", (notice that in Ep5, Erika goes for Natsuhi's diaries which are kept in the same dresser as her spirit mirror) but no other mirrors are mentioned in the currently translated Umineko, period.

P.S. Natsuhi's mirror is "10cm in diameter", so not too tiny.
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Old 2010-06-22, 21:23   Link #11459
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Sorry, backtracking back to Kinzo's corpse -- mostly for the record.

In Ep5, when Lambda challenges Battler to explain the scene of Kinzo in the rose garden that is dated at 5th October 1985, first Lambda says that Kinzo is already dead, which is ok, but then Battler rephrases it as Grandfather is dead at this point in time.

Since, as far as we know, red timing follows the timing of the displayed in-game scene to which red refers in context, that rephrasing unambiguously dates Kinzo's corpse to before the 5th October 1985 and the idea of Kinzo's corpse being recent is in this way prevented in red.

Guess we really need to figure out why the hell did they keep the body around for a year, then.
Well, I suppose this reaffirms my theory: Mainly, that Kinzo had never planned for Battler in his wacky kill his entire family plan.

This sheds quite a bit of doubt on those two lovely ladies, Shannon and Jessica. Shannon for the obvious horse related reasons, and Jessica because while she certainly may not have been madly in love with him, she was apparently the first one on the island to find out that he was coming back.

Oh, and may I add, it also makes it far less probable that Jessica was successfully fooled by Krauss and Natsuhi's Weekend at Bernie's stunt. Intially, the theory that Kinzo died briefly before the incident made me accept that perhaps they simply fooled her for a week, but now that it's a year, in addition to the possible Shkanon stuff, Jessica may very well be crazy herself if she doesn't know.

Last edited by Sentou; 2010-06-22 at 21:38.
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Old 2010-06-22, 21:39   Link #11460
Kaisos Erranon
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Guess we really need to figure out why the hell did they keep the body around for a year, then.
Any of the adults involved in the Conspiracy may have wanted to give him a proper burial, which is why his body was, as you suggested, preserved in embalming fluids inside his own bathtub.

Until Krauss' businesses succeeded, it wasn't safe to reveal Kinzo's death, and so...

My only question is where the body went during Ep5. Was Natsuhi really crazy enough to keep it under her bed?
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