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Old 2010-06-22, 21:41   Link #11461
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Oh, and may I add, it also makes it far less proable that Jessica was successfully fooled by Krauss and Natsuhi's Weekend at Bernie's stunt. Intially, the theory that Kinzo died briefly before the incident made me accept that perhaps they simply fooled her for a week, but now that it's a year, in addition to the possible Shkanon stuff, Jessica may very well be crazy herself if she doesn't know.
The only indication that Jessica knows anything about Kinzo's life status is that Krauss suggested telling her, and that they could solve the epitaph as a family. The only indication she has any involvement is FISTS OF FIRE in episode 6, and that's just silly.

Spoiler for weird:


Besides who says Jessica isn't the mastermind behind shkanon if it's true?
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Old 2010-06-22, 21:50   Link #11462
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The only indication that Jessica knows anything about Kinzo's life status is that Krauss suggested telling her, and that they could solve the epitaph as a family. The only indication she has any involvement is FISTS OF FIRE in episode 6, and that's just silly.

Spoiler for weird:



Besides who says Jessica isn't the mastermind behind shkanon if it's true?
Ah, well, I speak merely in terms of probability. There is a handful of lines that COULD be read as if Jessica knew about Kinzo's whole "not-living" thing, and there also are some lines that support that she doesn't. It's just something to mull over.

But as for the mastermind behind Shkanon... again, I can't see her as a evil villain. If she truly is ignorant of Shkanon and Kinzo's death, then she simply has to be delusional in some sense. I suppose this could aid Doubletrice or whatever, but in a more narrative sense, Jessica, more than anyone else, is in a position where her world as she knows it could collapse horribly.

Shkanon I'm actually fine with, as I can understand Shannontrice and I can understand the premise behind Shkanon. But Jessica always seems to trouble me. Not QUITE enough to pin her as involved, but not QUITE enough to pin as not involved.

As things stand, she is in the perfect position to live the role of her mother in episode 5. But that fact troubles me for the very reason that authors hardly ever use the same "trick" twice.
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Old 2010-06-22, 21:53   Link #11463
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
But as for the mastermind behind Shkanon... again, I can't see her as a evil villain. If she truly is ignorant of Shkanon and Kinzo's death, then she simply has to be delusional in some sense. I suppose this could aid Doubletrice or whatever, but in a more narrative sense, Jessica, more than anyone else, is in a position where her world as she knows it could collapse horribly.
It's not "evil" to dress up your best friend as a guy so a lonely teenage girl can pretend she has a boyfriend. Even if it's only a one time thing. Plus Shannon's a maid. What's she going to do? Say no?
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:00   Link #11464
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On the other hand, it IS rather evil to not inform people that the maid who is apparently dead is very much alive, even more so when people are dying all over the place.

See where I am going? Supposing that Shkanon is true, and supposing that Jessica knows about it in a non-insane manner, she's incriminated from episode 1!
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:07   Link #11465
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See where I am going? Supposing that Shkanon is true, and supposing that Jessica knows about it in a non-insane manner, she's incriminated from episode 1!
Yeah, but so is Maria by proxy. Since she probably knows the deaths are fake the whole time. That doesn't mean she has to be a murderer though, and a majority of the time she can't be.

Same with Jessica. Maybe sometimes she's involved in the fake death thing, but if the accomplices are randomized in each episode she doesn't have to be all the time. And I don't think she is a lot of the time.


Oh wait your talking about Kanon...yeah... that's pretty evil kind of. Only towards George though.
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:13   Link #11466
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It's troubling. Quite troubling. I think it's safe to say, that if Shkanon is true: Jessica is either one of the most villainous characters in the series, very much insane, or an ally of Beatrice for some noble but most likely insane reason.


Yikes, this is why I don't like Shkanon. Although, if Jessica does repeat her mother's role of being totally delusional, I somehow think the whole thing will climax in her being revealed to be the other Battler. After all, the first thing I would LOVE to know after being told my life is a lie is that I'm adopted.
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:40   Link #11467
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That's the thing. Not just because it's shocking, but because it makes absolutely no sense given what we've been shown of Jessica's character. Remember Knox's 8th - there's absolutely nothing pointing towards her being a bipolar delusional maniac. As sort-of-awesome as that sounds.

Well, not that I can think of .
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:27   Link #11468
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Well, I suppose this reaffirms my theory: Mainly, that Kinzo had never planned for Battler in his wacky kill his entire family plan.
The fake death conspiracy isn't directed at Battler in the first place. It's actually a final "chess" game between the magic buff Kinzo and the mystery buff Nanjo. To the extent that Battler is targeted by the script, it's because Beatrice had some control over the writing process and aligned it with her plan to confront him about his sin.

Since this is a kind of role-playing game, even if Nanjo comes across people playing dead, he'll suspend disbelief and pretend that they really are dead in order to keep the game going. Furthermore, if he is expecting people to be playing dead, he may not inspect them as closely as he would otherwise, causing him to overlook actual deaths that aren't immediately obvious.

This does imply that EP4 has an entirely separate thread of action where Nanjo "investigates" the murders in the mansion. I'm not sure if that's supportable from the evidence yet, though.
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:27   Link #11469
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Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
That's the thing. Not just because it's shocking, but because it makes absolutely no sense given what we've been shown of Jessica's character. Remember Knox's 8th - there's absolutely nothing pointing towards her being a bipolar delusional maniac. As sort-of-awesome as that sounds.

Well, not that I can think of .
Your avatar begs to differ...

Well, what about the scenes in EP2 where she talks about creating another Jessica? That could certainly suit the bipolar delusional part (but not maniacal).
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:37   Link #11470
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The fake death conspiracy isn't directed at Battler in the first place. It's actually a final "chess" game between the magic buff Kinzo and the mystery buff Nanjo. To the extent that Battler is targeted by the script, it's because Beatrice had some control over the writing process and aligned it with her plan to confront him about his sin.

Since this is a kind of role-playing game, even if Nanjo comes across people playing dead, he'll suspend disbelief and pretend that they really are dead in order to keep the game going. Furthermore, if he is expecting people to be playing dead, he may not inspect them as closely as he would otherwise, causing him to overlook actual deaths that aren't immediately obvious.

This does imply that EP4 has an entirely separate thread of action where Nanjo "investigates" the murders in the mansion. I'm not sure if that's supportable from the evidence yet, though.
God, now I'll never not be able to hear Nanjo's lines in Dr. Zoidberg's voice.

"I've called you all here to the Accusing Parlor to watch as I gradually solve the crime."

"My first clue came at 4 PM, when the clock stopped, and another came two hours later at 4 PM when I discovered the murdered body of Rosa's dead deceased corpse!"

"It's just as I suspected! The crime... is unsolvable!"

They even have an actual accusing parlor.
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:47   Link #11471
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Your avatar begs to differ...

Well, what about the scenes in EP2 where she talks about creating another Jessica? That could certainly suit the bipolar delusional part (but not maniacal).
Well, there's a clear difference between fanon and canon...and obsessive lovelorn stalking and obsessive villainous stalking .

I think it's been said many times, and I thought about it a bit, but that just seems like normal behavior for a teenager/anybody really around their parents. Jessica just explained it that way because, well, Kanon doesn't know what normal behavior for a teenager is .

It might have been intended as a "scene setter" or metaphor for somebody else in the story who is actually bipolar, true. But I don't think I'd say that it actually indicates that Jessica has a villainous alternate personality.
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:17   Link #11472
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Were Kinzo alive, the normal way to do that would be come up to the study, knock and say "Hi, Kinzo-san, open up, it's me." Kinzo would then open. Since Kinzo can't do it anymore, either Genji or Natsuhi have to open the door for Nanjo so he can sit alone and meditate on a chess puzzle for appearance's sake, or Nanjo has to be somewhere else entirely where nobody is likely to chance on him and wonder where the bloody doctor is, or, some method to let Nanjo have a key is needed, like giving him Natsuhi's or Genji's key. Getting a key from Nanjo would be considerably easier than getting it from Natsuhi or Genji, as Natsuhi is protected by her status and determination and the physical capabilities of Genji remain unknown but are believed to be rather formidable. Nanjo, instead, can simply be threatened. Which is why I wouldn't let Nanjo have a key in any circumstances if I were Natsuhi.
That's a good catch. I never thought that characters "in the study" were always actually in the study, but I hadn't realized that Nanjo would be literally unable to enter. He's probably meeting with someone in the third floor hallway, as people were throughout EP5.

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But Jessica always seems to trouble me. Not QUITE enough to pin her as involved, but not QUITE enough to pin as not involved.
Definitely. Her and Kumasawa are the hardest for me to place. (They could be working together on something - what were they talking about at the start of EP2? If there's a faction that is neither accomplices or the utterly clueless, I'd place them in it.)
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:22   Link #11473
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
It might have been intended as a "scene setter" or metaphor for somebody else in the story who is actually bipolar, true.
DID, not bipolar disorder. You're talking about multiple personalities, not alternating between manic and depressive behavior.

If anyone in Umineko could be described as "bipolar", it's Rosa, but she actually has something more along the lines of borderline personality disorder.
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:22   Link #11474
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That's a good catch. I never thought that characters "in the study" were always actually in the study, but I hadn't realized that Nanjo would be literally unable to enter. He's probably meeting with someone in the third floor hallway, as people were throughout EP5.
Nanjo absolutely cannot be somewhere he might be seen or located by anyone not in on the conspiracy. The only safe place we know of is Kinzo's study. He could be in there for real, as that would complete the illusion, but he'd have nothing to really do in there. If he's somewhere else, it has to be someplace where he will never come into contact with anybody he doesn't intend to bump into, or there would be serious questions.
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:25   Link #11475
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If he's somewhere else, it has to be someplace where he will never come into contact with anybody he doesn't intend to bump into, or there would be serious questions.
The only other places on the island (besides the study) where you're practically guaranteed to not be seen by anyone are the chapel (always locked) and Kuwadorian (impossible to find).

Well, there's also the gold chamber, but I somehow doubt Nanjo knows where that is.
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:53   Link #11476
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Any of the adults involved in the Conspiracy may have wanted to give him a proper burial, which is why his body was, as you suggested, preserved in embalming fluids inside his own bathtub.
No, that doesn't work. Once Kinzo's death is concealed, the absolutely only way out for him is by being declared missing, because an autopsy would be, in this situation, unavoidable, and it would reveal that the time of death was a whole year in the past. In fact, it would be impossible not to notice when seeing the body up close, medical cadaver preservation methods are only good for up to 'about a year' and still involve cold storage. Marinating him in the fluid would help a lot, but anyone who sees it will still inevitably say 'omg how long ago did he die?!' and the smell is impossible to hide either.

So something serious enough is still required.

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My only question is where the body went during Ep5. Was Natsuhi really crazy enough to keep it under her bed?
Anywhere. All of the red in this scene refers to 'a living Kinzo', which can easily 'not exist' anywhere, because it doesn't exist at all.
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Old 2010-06-23, 01:08   Link #11477
Kaisos Erranon
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So something serious enough is still required.
Again, I certainly can't think of a reason other than someone appropriating the body, for use as blackmail.

Of course, then that would mean that Natsuhi isn't burning the body at all.

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Anywhere. All of the red in this scene refers to 'a living Kinzo', which can easily 'not exist' anywhere, because it doesn't exist at all.
Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!

Actually, most of the reds in that scene refer only to "Kinzo", and should apply whether he is alive or not.

The only reds involving a "living Kinzo" are referring to the time when he could have been in the room and where he would be inside the room, that is, Natsuhi's bed.
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Old 2010-06-23, 01:15   Link #11478
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, I certainly can't think of a reason other than someone appropriating the body, for use as blackmail.

Of course, then that would mean that Natsuhi isn't burning the body at all.
This would also mean that the body has to be kept on the island somewhere, so that it can be found burned later. The only place available for this sort of thing is somewhere in the tunnels to Kuwadorian, which produces the complicated issues of dragging the body along tunnels.

I find the idea that an actual use was very much intended more likely than that, but I can't find this use. Party barbecue?....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!

Actually, most of the reds in that scene refer only to "Kinzo", and should apply whether he is alive or not.

The only reds involving a "living Kinzo" are referring to the time when he could have been in the room and where he would be inside the room, that is, Natsuhi's bed.
Well, if they actually incinerate the body into ashes and spread it on the wind, it is either 'everywhere at once' or 'nowhere at all'. Maybe someone actually tuned the incinerator to high temperature this time instead.
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Old 2010-06-23, 02:02   Link #11479
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I think those reds were manipulated to bully Natsuhi. Kinzo isn't alive. Once Kinzo dies, he technically "no longer exists" in a way. Those reds are strung together so that Kinzo's LIVE existence (i.e. his existence as a living breathing person) telescopes from the island, to the mansion, to the floor number, to Natsuhi's room, then to Natsuhi's bed. However, the plain and simple truth is that he doesn't exist on the bed either. He doesn't exist anywhere. Bern and Erika were just telescoping to the point of Natsuhi's bed because they can and wanted to mess with her. They wanted to weave the most wicked and evil truth they could :/

For example:

There is no knife anywhere outside the house.

There is no knife anywhere outside the second floor.

There is no knife anywhere outside master bedroom on the second floor.

There is no knife anywhere other than dresser in the master bedroom.

There is no knife anywhere other than upper right hand corner.

There is no knife anywhere other then the 10 square inches in the upper right hand corner of the dresser.

There is no knife anywhere.

I think this is one of the major clues that 07 gives in EP5. Reds can be manipulated so that it might imply that something exists somewhere, but in that implication there is doubt. Just because you restrict the areas it could be doesn't mean that it even exists in the first place.
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Old 2010-06-23, 02:12   Link #11480
Rui Brennan
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If we follow that trail of thought...

Spoiler for Regarding certain letter @ Episode 5:
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