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Old 2010-06-23, 02:22   Link #11481
Oliver
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Yes, the letter in particular definitely did not exist, which has already been discussed about a thousand posts back.

And I just remembered. In the scene that started the list of locations where Kinzo does not exist, Lambdadelta specifically says that the name 'Kinzo' refers to a 'living Kinzo' before they start their enumeration of places where he doesn't exist. So his body is probably not too far from the study.
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Old 2010-06-23, 02:33   Link #11482
Rui Brennan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes, the letter in particular definitely did not exist, which has already been discussed about a thousand posts back.
Need to improve my searching abilities,
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Old 2010-06-23, 02:42   Link #11483
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Rui Brennan View Post
Need to improve my searching abilities,
I'm afraid that forums are not very conductive to accumulation of information in the first place, particularly ones which have threads that long.

But to get back on a topic, if Natsuhi deliberately kept Kinzo's body, the only practical use for it is to use it in a fake death plot to lend credence to it by presenting one real dead body. (at least, I have no other ideas so far) That would imply the plan was around for a year and that both Natsuhi and Krauss are in on it.

Which wouldn't be too strange, if she didn't get caught by a fake death plot of the siblings in turn, as these two fake death plots seem to be distinct...
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Old 2010-06-23, 03:12   Link #11484
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes, the letter in particular definitely did not exist, which has already been discussed about a thousand posts back.
Can we assume that Battler didn't receive the head's ring, in that case?

Even so, BATTLER uses it as his wand, as I understand it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
In the scene that started the list of locations where Kinzo does not exist, Lambdadelta specifically says that the name 'Kinzo' refers to a 'living Kinzo' before they start their enumeration of places where he doesn't exist.
Gah, my bad. Wish the Red Text Wiki had contexts like this.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
So his body is probably not too far from the study.
Still, I kind of wonder where it could have gone. As I recall, they searched the entire study, it's not as though Natsuhi could have dumped him in the courtyard where he'd be in full view of the family later, and it certainly wasn't burnt...

Which makes me think that yes, the body was stolen.
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Old 2010-06-23, 03:54   Link #11485
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Can we assume that Battler didn't receive the head's ring, in that case?

Even so, BATTLER uses it as his wand, as I understand it...
We can, but I find it far more plausible that Kanon just brought it in his pocket and gave it in public, having learned of Battler finding the gold. The others present agreed to lie about the letter to protect Kanon from possible repercussions by the other members of the phantom conspiracy, and since Battler is not burdened with staying factual in Ep5, he can join in on the lie. And I think it was you who calculated that Shannon has to be the Piece-known-as-Erika in the Ep6 thread.

Quote:
Still, I kind of wonder where it could have gone. As I recall, they searched the entire study, it's not as though Natsuhi could have dumped him in the courtyard where he'd be in full view of the family later, and it certainly wasn't burnt...

Which makes me think that yes, the body was stolen.
Throwing the body out the window is by far the most stealthy way to transport it, as nobody ever looks into the courtyard (it's not pretty and exists mostly for lighting purposes for the rooms on the inner side, as Battler's narration remarks) and it does not require to drag it along corridors and down the stairs. It is far easier to accomplish alone, as well, which is why whoever removes the body, whether it's stolen or not, is very likely to have done this.

There is one important red about the Kinzo disappearance in Ep5 which I don't see remembered often, and that is the fact that the window was never opened after it started RAINING. It doesn't just destroy Battler's blue about Kinzo jumping out of the window, it also prevents anyone from tossing his body out after a certain time.

We know that it starts raining before dark, which can be seen from backgrounds. We also know that sunset of the 4th October 1986 in this timezone occurs at 17:22.

Therefore, the body has to have been removed before that moment.

If the body is stolen, it is in Natsuhi's interest to present the empty study to the 'public' as soon as possible and claim Kinzo's disappearance, as otherwise, she and Krauss are immediately culpable as the murderer if the body does turn up. If they claim that Kinzo vanished immediately as they discover the body is not there, they still have wiggle room when it turns up, unburned, by claiming that Kinzo hired an impersonator, who locked himself in the study, and then someone mysteriously killed him and kept the body around, and that impersonator is now missing. Nobody would put it past Kinzo! Whichever story they cook up, they can only disclaim liability for the body if they announce the disappearance, otherwise they are caught lying. If the body does not turn up they can deal with it and whoever stole the body later.

Which implies that if the body is stolen, Natsuhi probably doesn't know this happened.

Both keys to the study are shown to be securely in the possession of Genji and Natsuhi, and are never discovered to be missing. Therefore, only Genji, Natsuhi and whoever they opened the door for and left inside for at least ten minutes unattended could remove the body. Therefore they very probably know who could have stolen the body at all if they didn't remove it themselves.

I'm afraid there isn't much room to steal it and then not just get strangled there and then, but there are very few people who can remove anywhere too.

...come to think of it, though, which floor is Natsuhi's room on, again? Isn't that the third floor? Well, maybe the body is in Natsuhi's room! There's only ten meters to drag it along the corridor, which is risky, but reasonably safe if nobody's watching. Here's the scenario:

Panicked, Natsuhi decides the body needs to be moved, as breaking into the study is inevitable. But there's no forest of fake corpses to hide it amongst, as nobody died or 'died' yet. She still plans to use the body for some unknown purpose, so she pulls it out and drags it to her own room, the only secure place she can think of, as nobody goes there beside her and Krauss anyway, nobody has the key beside her and the servants, and the only servants remaining on duty who might go there are Shannon or Kanon, who are members of the conspiracy.

And yes, Natsuhi's bed is the place to put it, amusing as it sounds.
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Old 2010-06-23, 04:47   Link #11486
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For the whole "Ushiromiya family inherited craziness" I'd be inclined to say this'd be due to their nurture, as Ange says in episode 4. Kinzo was treated badly as a child, so he treats his children badly, messing them up, who in turn treat their younger sister badly, messing her up, who in turn treats Maria badly, messing her up...

Just out of interest, did we have any red text to the effect that Kinzo's body was ever in the study at all? I suppose it's implied by the terrible smell that's always in there...

And yes, limiting the options falsely and then eliminating them one by one is something we're gonna have to watch out for. Certainly the Natsuhi/ Kinzo affair would be a rather dramatic example of this.
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Old 2010-06-23, 04:55   Link #11487
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Just out of interest, did we have any red text to the effect that Kinzo's body was ever in the study at all? I suppose it's implied by the terrible smell that's always in there...
No, there wasn't any red regarding Kinzo's location at all up until Ep5, and the study is just the most reasonable guess -- that's the most rigidly controlled room on Rokkenjima with only two keys and nobody having official business in it except known conspiracy members, and the body doesn't need to be moved there since that's where Kinzo died. Next best place would be the chapel, but, it's key is in the servant room keybox, so it's held closed socially rather than physically -- nobody wants to go there.

The only other room with only one key extant is apparently the garden storehouse, but beyond Kanon, many other servants may have legitimate business in it, so it's out. Whether the room with the gold bar in it actually exists at all or not is not quite certain, because it is never referred to again after being first mentioned.
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Old 2010-06-23, 05:29   Link #11488
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Couldn't Kinzo's body have been removed and stored somewhere else during the prior year?

But yes, Natsuhi not having control of the body was something I figured was supposed to be a big hint. If it's not her and Krauss, the who else wants to not just expose the body but burn it up? Note that if you wanted to simply expose his death, you just display it. To burn it up means to both display his death publicly but conceal his time of death.

Edit: oh and of course displaying his death would trigger the inheritance.
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Old 2010-06-23, 05:59   Link #11489
Oliver
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Couldn't Kinzo's body have been removed and stored somewhere else during the prior year?
Physically, this obviously could have happened, but whether it's plausible depends on who did it and where did they store it.

If it's Natsuhi+Krauss, they need to know of a more secure storage location first. Basically the only place on the board that is more secure is the tunnels or Kuwadorian itself, do they know about it? We don't really know if they do. But if the corpse is stored in Kuwadorian, burning it up becomes a bit problematic as the one who does it has to traverse uneven terrain (ladder!) with unwieldy cargo.

If it's some side thief (let us define 'stolen' as 'removed without Natsuhi+Krauss' knowledge' in this case for clarity) who managed to get access to the corpse for long enough to toss it out of the window and quietly make off with it, the only place that works for them to keep it is again Kuwadorian+tunnels, and that only if Natsuhi and Krauss are not aware of where it is. Nanjo is possible, but I find him hauling a corpse around unlikely. He'd need at least something like a serving tray, which would be what I would use.

Also, if the corpse was stolen from the study while there's no outsiders on the island, the access to the study is so limited that they would be outed pretty much immediately. The optimal strategy for Natsuhi is not well defined in this case -- but my guess would be, try to round up the probable suspects in the theft of the corpse and winchester-whip them into revealing the location. This is Serious Business, the danger is getting the Ushiromiya family destitute and someone jailed, and threatening people with a gun would be quite justified, even if shooting anyone would not be. Should that fail after reasonable time, announce Kinzo's disappearance, cook up a battery of lies and cross fingers.

Neither seems to have happened, which is why I believe that the corpse could not have been stolen prior to the start of the game.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
But yes, Natsuhi not having control of the body was something I figured was supposed to be a big hint. If it's not her and Krauss, the who else wants to not just expose the body but burn it up? Note that if you wanted to simply expose his death, you just display it. To burn it up means to both display his death publicly but conceal his time of death.

Edit: oh and of course displaying his death would trigger the inheritance.
Actually, there's one more useful motive to steal, but not reveal the body during the game. That's painting Kinzo as the murder suspect, by arranging a murder in such a way that his location is the only one that is not known during the expected time of death. Since he's long since dead, he doesn't mind.

Mind you, we still have no good idea what was the reason to keep the body around in the first place, as secretly disposing of it is trivial, and keeping it is problematic. There must have been some plan which involved the use of Kinzo's body, and while burning it as part of the first twilight sounds like it could be that, it's still far too much trouble.
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Old 2010-06-23, 07:26   Link #11490
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Just thought of one more possibility regarding that blasted cadaver, which at least does not require us to think of why would anyone keep it for an entire year. Here's the scenario:

Natsuhi and Krauss actually did bury Kinzo somewhere on the island, somewhere deep in the forest but not too deep -- either in a plastic bag, or in a handmade coffin, doesn't matter -- shortly after his death in a quiet little ceremony, with only the conspiracy members present. One of the conspiracy members betrayed it, and very shortly before the game started or early in the morning, during their spare time, well before the rain started or darkness fell, or even yesterday -- basically, whenever they could do it easiest, and not pressed for time, not during the night and not surrounded by visitors, dug it up and hid it somewhere on the mansion grounds, with the intent to display it as freshly dead but partly incinerated when the fake death conspiracy time rolls in.

Who did this? Kanon. How? With that wheelbarrow full of gardening tools that he is seen with in the morning of Ep1, and presumably, uses in all other cases. How could he do this when he is apparently barely strong enough to lift a sack of fertilizer? He actually has normal upper body strength. But he just spent a few hours digging Kinzo up and transporting the corpse to it's new location, so he is simply dead tired.
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Old 2010-06-23, 09:06   Link #11491
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There is one important red about the Kinzo disappearance in Ep5 which I don't see remembered often, and that is the fact that the window was never opened after it started RAINING. It doesn't just destroy Battler's blue about Kinzo jumping out of the window, it also prevents anyone from tossing his body out after a certain time.
The window was open when it started raining, and wasn't closed until after Kinzo or his body left though it.
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Old 2010-06-23, 09:32   Link #11492
Oliver
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The window was open when it started raining, and wasn't closed until after Kinzo or his body left though it.
I'm not sure if the red means 'the window has persisted in the closed state at least since the rain started' (i.e. no rain got in, so it's dry) or 'the window never entered an open state after the rain started', which is what your blue relies on.

While such an interpretation of that red is clearly possible, it is stated multiple times all the way since Ep1 that Natsuhi is very meticulous about keeping every window closed, including this one. The very idea behind making the servants do nighttime patrols is to ensure all windows are closed.

So a good reason is needed for this window to be open, and getting around the red is not it. Also, someone needs to have had an opportunity to close it after the rain started. I don't remember, did Nanjo say that he was in the room prior to that red-blue battle? If Kinzo's body is marinating in the tub as expected, he probably has to open the window every time to stay inside.
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Old 2010-06-23, 12:19   Link #11493
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Who did this? Kanon. How? With that wheelbarrow full of gardening tools that he is seen with in the morning of Ep1, and presumably, uses in all other cases. How could he do this when he is apparently barely strong enough to lift a sack of fertilizer? He actually has normal upper body strength. But he just spent a few hours digging Kinzo up and transporting the corpse to it's new location, so he is simply dead tired.
That could explain why he is so silent, too. He's trying his best to not breath heavily after such a heavy labour. Though, if we follow this trail of thought, shouldn't Kinzo's body be hidden in the place where Kanon is coming from.....logically?

Oh, and another idea:

Kanon had not yet transported Kinzo's body. He was in the middle of it. The fertilizer sack that was too heavy for Kanon to lift was actually heavier than normal ones, because Kinzo was inside of it.

Okay, maybe not.
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Old 2010-06-23, 12:21   Link #11494
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Can you cite any hints that this other place exists, outside the "small golden land" itself, which could also mean the bank vault where boxes of cash are found?
The device that Erika was playing with after she and Battler solved the Epitaph. I'm supposing they were messing with some lock and 0715... was the code for it, which is why Erika was just playing around with it but was never able to open it. From the fact that the two were led to another direction towards the real gold and the place was seemingly locked, I'm guessing it must hold something of equal value to the gold.
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Old 2010-06-23, 12:45   Link #11495
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
That could explain why he is so silent, too. He's trying his best to not breath heavily after such a heavy labour. Though, if we follow this trail of thought, shouldn't Kinzo's body be hidden in the place where Kanon is coming from.....logically?
It is, unfortunately, not clear at all where he is coming from or to. If I were Kanon, and needed to hide Kinzo's body for the next twelve hours or so until the time is right to to set it on fire, my first choice would be under a pile of rags in the boiler room itself. The second choice would be the garden storehouse. Boiler room is preferable because then I need only a few minutes to start the incinerator at an appropriate time, garden storehouse is preferable because it's fairly certain nobody's going to need anything in there for the next twelve hours.

The body's original burial location would have to be quite a ways off into the forest to prevent any accidental discovery.

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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Kanon had not yet transported Kinzo's body. He was in the middle of it. The fertilizer sack that was too heavy for Kanon to lift was actually heavier than normal ones, because Kinzo was inside of it.

Okay, maybe not.
That is a strong possibility, actually. But the condition the body is in would seriously affect whether Battler would immediately notice, and that condition depends on whether the body suffered any temporary embalming treatment before being buried, which I think is likely, because the chance to safely bury it probably did not occur immediately. I'm not sure just when exactly would it stop smelling in this case.

Though, Kinzo is described and pictured as a heavyset, strong man, and is likely to be way too heavy for Battler to nonchalantly lift even after all this time... but then again, there's those performance enhancement drugs and muscle training Battler had.

Not certain. But it would make for a better story and even explain Kanon's behaviour better. He'd be desperate not to give himself out, internally panicking and wondering what to do, and then Battler just puts the corpse back on the wheelbarrow like it's a sack of fertilizer, waves bye and leaves!

EDIT: P.S.: And what exactly is Kanon supposed to be doing with fertilizer immediately prior to a typhoon? Are you even supposed to water delicate plants before rain like this?
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Old 2010-06-23, 12:58   Link #11496
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It seems like some people has not realized the clue pointing to how was Kinzo's body burned in EP1.

It was after the discovery of the "six bodies" in the garden shed. At the time when Natsuhi called Kanon, Genji, and Kumasawa out to help check the windows and doors.

Battler commented that it took so much time for just checking.

Then Natsuhi came back with the gun, and was reliefed when she slumped on the sofa chair.



It means that:

There was no betrayer as Natsuhi was the one ordering the incineration of Kinzo's body.




BTW, on the red truth stating Kinzo's death. Well, what did it mean by "at this point in time"? It has been told what Battler saw was just "replay" of the game. So the actual time on the chessboard was Erika accusing Natsuhi as the murderer. Of course Kinzo was dead at this point in time
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Old 2010-06-23, 13:13   Link #11497
Oliver
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
There was no betrayer as Natsuhi was the one ordering the incineration of Kinzo's body.
That works much better with a marinated body in the study, though, when, having thrown it out, Natsuhi arranges for it to be burned.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
BTW, on the red truth stating Kinzo's death. Well, what did it mean by "at this point in time"? It has been told what Battler saw was just "replay" of the game. So the actual time on the chessboard was Erika accusing Natsuhi as the murderer. Of course Kinzo was dead at this point in time
Um. From this point of view, red truth ventured to Bernkastel in Meta-Battler's presence regarding the same events would also come past 24:00 by being a replay, and so would be any other red produced when Meta-Battler is involved in discussion.

That would be rather messy.
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Old 2010-06-23, 14:23   Link #11498
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not certain. But it would make for a better story and even explain Kanon's behaviour better. He'd be desperate not to give himself out, internally panicking and wondering what to do, and then Battler just puts the corpse back on the wheelbarrow like it's a sack of fertilizer, waves bye and leaves!
And that would make Kanon's sneak-peek at Battler after that just a scene with him wondering: "Just how incompetent is that man?", instead of slightly homoerotic stalking scene. And then Kanon tells Shannon/Jessica (Or whoever the Beatrice might be) and they get the idea: "Hey, let's play a prank on that idiot!". Too bad there's an actual murder-plan going on at the same time...

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EDIT: P.S.: And what exactly is Kanon supposed to be doing with fertilizer immediately prior to a typhoon? Are you even supposed to water delicate plants before rain like this?
That is actually...a good question. The roses are going to be destroyed no matter what, thanks to the typhoon, so using fertilizer is pretty much meaningless at that point. If it was logical, Kanon would have been making all that he could to offer some protection to the roses, which would mean anything else but fertilizer. So, this raises the question if it really was fertilizer in those sacks, and if it wasn't, what was in them? Kinzo? Gold? Small bombs?
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Old 2010-06-23, 14:38   Link #11499
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
If it was logical, Kanon would have been making all that he could to offer some protection to the roses, which would mean anything else but fertilizer. So, this raises the question if it really was fertilizer in those sacks, and if it wasn't, what was in them? Kinzo? Gold? Small bombs?
If it was gold, even Battler would have problems lifting them, no matter the muscle training, as even a small sack would weigh 30-40kg, and a big sack that holds 50kg of fertilizer would weigh 200-300kg... nah. It's impossible even for the starting out Battler not to notice that. Small bombs are out for the obvious reasons.

I'm afraid that if there's anything story-relevant in them, it can only be Kinzo's corpse, as I can remember no other relevant objects of appropriate sizes for a bag of fertilizer.

EDIT: Let's count and quote!

Battler's narration says: "He seemed to be fine with the light-looking gardening tools, shovels and such, but he looked like he was having trouble getting his arms around and lifting up some sacks of fertilizer."

Shovels are obviously present, so it's plausible that Kanon may actually be carrying the corpse to the garden storehouse where he plans to keep it until the night. Let us estimate the size of a sack based on that phrase.

Kanon is supposed to be considerably shorter and smaller than Battler, who, if my memory serves me right, is said to be 180cm tall. That allows us to estimate that a bag that Battler can get his arms around and hold securely with no discomfort is about 60cm in diameter, while the smaller Kanon would be limited to comfortably holding a 45-50cm bag. (shorter arms) Kinzo is at most 70cm wide in shoulders, which makes it possible to squeeze him into a non-cylindrical sack that when stretched to a cylinder would be 60cm, but 45-50cm won't fit.

Yes, Kinzo's corpse may actually be in there, and if it is in there, Kanon would need multiple attempts to get it onto the wheelbarrow alone. Further narration says:

"I lifted up the other bags that had fallen. Of course, they weren't light, but for me it was a piece of cake. Kanon-kun turned his surprised eyes towards me."

We have nothing to deduce how much can Battler bench press, but for me, it feels like Battler is showing off, and actually underrepresenting the weight. It's piece of cake for him. The 70-120kg Kinzo would be easy for Battler to lift but problematic for Kanon to get anywhere without that wheelbarrow.

Yes, it is indeed a possibility, and Kanon's subsequent reaction can well be shock at how Battler just ignored the most compromising thing Kanon was ever caught with.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:10   Link #11500
Sentou
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I think that if the corpse is being kept around, they wouldn't want to cut it up into teeny bits. So I think we rule out the idea of it being in bags or in Gohda's meals or anything like that.
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