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Old 2010-06-22, 22:04   Link #25581
DezoPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKN117 View Post
I don't like starting a fic without having my facts straight, only to receive a TORRENT of corrections and "actually"s and "this is wrong"s. I prefer to have everything sorted out and understood before fingers hit the keyboard.
I sympathize with this. At the very least, I like to have the factual setting details down just in case I have some important plot point that's going to turn into a complete wallbanger because the Nanohaverse (or whatever) Does Not Work That Way.

Likewise, when I write a story, I always like to know at the least how it ends and have at least some sense of how I'm going to get there. If it's more than a one or two-shot (and sometimes even then), an outline is a must; for a long fic, I need to write it down just so I don't forget what's coming next!

The #1 way to run into a dead fic or writer's block is to start a story with a general concept and try to work out what actually happens on the fly.

However, that doesn't mean not to write. This is especially true with this forum--you have a lot of people, many talented writers and people knowledgeable in the setting who can comment on what's working and what doesn't. There's a reason I post my draft chapters here before doing the "final" versions for fanfiction.net--to get the benefit of the community here's assistance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

Gonna tell you this right now: no matter how well you plan, you're gonna mess up something. The good news is, writing really helps you nail down those points. For something like the cyborgs, writing them helps me understand them, their individual personalities, and how they relate to each other. having written all of them now (well, except for Sein who will get more screentime eventually) I pretty much know their personalities. Stuff like the Deed/Otto sister bond, or Dieci's more mellow outlook.

You write, you learn stuff. So get writing, and prepare to have people point things out. It's a good thing, because you'll learn!^^
This is definitely the comment I agree with most in the follow-up. The one thing that planning a story does not teach you is the fine details. Characterization is one of the things that you learn by writing the actual sentences, not the outline or plot sketch. You can only develop a comfort level with personalities by writing them out, expressing through dialogue and action, the line-by-line details that aren't shown in an outline.

Adding to that, writing is one of those things where practice is vital. You can only learn to write by writing, developing the skill of turning ideas into stories. It's always worth something to put words down on paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
I can't really put it better but I'll throw in this. There's a reason people draft before calling something final.
Yep again.
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:18   Link #25582
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Posted chapter 4 of Future Tense to ff.net, so you can find it here. Made the sole correction Raiser pointed out, and added a tiny bit more to a couple of scenes near the end, just to smooth out the scenes a bit.

Due to a brainstorm, been typing chapter 5 all night, and it's almost done, haha. So we'll see whether I can get it out in a couple of days (will definitely need some polishing). But it's going to be a nasty cliffhanger. > : )
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Old 2010-06-22, 22:51   Link #25583
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by deathcurse View Post
Man, I wish I knew more about the Materials, since it seems like many people are starting to write fics about them!

I come bearing an update...sorry it's short! My summer class is winding up, so once again I'm very much not studying for my final exam...

Crime Never Sleeps
Revised Part 5 A
Revised Part 1-4A and Revised Part 4B

Spoiler for Crime Never Sleeps, Revised Part 5A:

Spoiler for Author's Note:
It's about time I got up and commented on these revised chapters!
Spoiler for Comments on the 1-4 revisions:


Spoiler for Comments on Revised 5A:


In any case, I'm looking forward eagerly to further revisions and the advancement of the story!
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:12   Link #25584
Comartemis
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I sympathize with this. At the very least, I like to have the factual setting details down just in case I have some important plot point that's going to turn into a complete wallbanger because the Nanohaverse (or whatever) Does Not Work That Way.

Likewise, when I write a story, I always like to know at the least how it ends and have at least some sense of how I'm going to get there. If it's more than a one or two-shot (and sometimes even then), an outline is a must; for a long fic, I need to write it down just so I don't forget what's coming next!

The #1 way to run into a dead fic or writer's block is to start a story with a general concept and try to work out what actually happens on the fly.
Agreed. As a matter of course I keep detailed notes on what the characters are doing, how they're interacting with each other, how they relate to the overall plot and where they are at beginning and the end of the story. Ignore the people who tell you to "just write something!" if you want to write anything worth reading. Drafts are all well and good, but starting a fic without an outline is like going on a cross-country roadtrip without a map.
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:16   Link #25585
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Well this chapter isn't that long, but it ended at an ideal place. Anyways, here's

The Location of Happiness chapter 3

Previous chapters here.

Spoiler for The Location of Happiness chapter 3:


Spoiler for notes:
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:30   Link #25586
TheShinySword
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Agreed. As a matter of course I keep detailed notes on what the characters are doing, how they're interacting with each other, how they relate to the overall plot and where they are at beginning and the end of the story. Ignore the people who tell you to "just write something!" if you want to write anything worth reading. Drafts are all well and good, but starting a fic without an outline is like going on a cross-country roadtrip without a map.
Some of the best things happen when you lose your map.

Outlining is an important skill to have (trust me I know), but if you never write anything outlining is useless and if you want real feedback a draft is essential.
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:31   Link #25587
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*Gasp* It's an OC! Oh noes! We must focus on the OC now otherwise the story is lost!

I kid, I kid. Poor Yuuno though, sounds like me sometimes when I'm feeling down. I do hope that it doesn't take two to five months to get the next chapter.
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Old 2010-06-22, 23:56   Link #25588
00-Raiser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
*Gasp* It's an OC! Oh noes! We must focus on the OC now otherwise the story is lost!
I just hope people don't drop the fic because of it I wish they'd at least stick around to see what I do with her...

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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Poor Yuuno though, sounds like me sometimes when I'm feeling down.
I think everyone is like that when they feel down. I certainly am.
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Old 2010-06-23, 00:24   Link #25589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Agreed. As a matter of course I keep detailed notes on what the characters are doing, how they're interacting with each other, how they relate to the overall plot and where they are at beginning and the end of the story. Ignore the people who tell you to "just write something!" if you want to write anything worth reading. Drafts are all well and good, but starting a fic without an outline is like going on a cross-country roadtrip without a map.
Having been "tutored" by some of the harshest (nah, they're good folks ) critiques around in Original Characters Thread, you should've learnt that an outline that makes sense to you will sometimes not make sense to another person. Some people interpret differently when presented with the same map, so to say.

One on one, there's a chance your idea might work. But if many disagree with you, then you need to work out on the kinks, and to do that, you just have to write something eventually. It is a necessary, inevitable procedure. Surviving that, of course, will make you a better writer.

That said, I have no experience with how things are handled in the Fanfiction thread, so I can't say how usual this happens. I only lurk around to read.
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Old 2010-06-23, 08:07   Link #25590
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Oh, debates, debates! My turn!

I have personally found outlining any story that's going to be longer than a few chapters to be of limited value, simply because I can't stick to it. I had a nice, pretty outline for Infinity when I first started it. Outlined the basic plot, had the story all set up, names and personalities for my OCs, ending all tidy and neat.

I deleted it about eight chapters in, because I had already deviated so wildly from it that it was no longer any use to me. I can't help it! I think of scenes that sound fun or cool and I have to throw them in, and eventually it all adds up to... not so much 'derail' the narrative as shift it onto entirely new rails that were not originally part of the travel itinerary. For instance, Yuuno was not originally going to be as major a character as he is, but I just kept up thinking funny things to do with him and Arf, and then I thought, "You know, every character should get a Crowning Moment of Awesome, but Yuuno's only good at shielding... oh my God I should have him deflect an anti-warship cannon, I'll need to write one in so he can do that." and that was that.

That said, there is a cost to this style. I make a good number of errors because so much is written on the fly, so I typically have to go back to finished chapters and polish them up quite a bit more than I would if I did more prep-work. I accept this, because I feel it takes less time than it would to sit down and prepare beforehand an outline that I'll end up not following anyway. But if you're the sort who can actually stick to a complicated plan, you might disagree. I'd suggest trying a couple different approaches, see what you prefer. But the most important thing, again, is to write, write, write. Nothing replaces experience.

Oh, and have fun with it! It's fanfic, it doesn't have to be perfect! I mean, come on, you've seen FF.net. Even mediocre writers shine by comparison to some of the stuff over there.
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Old 2010-06-23, 09:29   Link #25591
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Gonna echo Mozco's argument a bit. I don't make outlines so much as I write brief descriptions of scenes that I want to see happen throughout the fic. And it gets more and more sparse as I get to the end. For Crisis, I didn't really have the ending figured out at all, just a vague "okay, these characters go to Al Hazard and fight Precia."

Any outline you write, is gonna be deviated from. There are tons of scenes I included in Crisis that were spur of the moment, or that I realized I had to change based on what came before and what made sense now.

So yeah, outline something, describe a few brief scenes you'd like, as much as you feel you can come up for. Then start writing and posting. Make changes as people make suggestions, and your world will slowly take shape.^^
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Old 2010-06-23, 11:48   Link #25592
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I break up your serious discussion with an update!

Next chapter of "Shadowfire" is up and running: When a Shadow Sleeps.

Which reminds me, I need to dig out "Building Tolerance" before it gets lost too far back so I have it ready when I post it to FF.net.
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Old 2010-06-23, 12:49   Link #25593
Satashi
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Parts 1-6
A:IIIII IIIII IIII
B:II

I... think that A won this time @_@

Spoiler for Part 7 Vivio CYOA.Can anyone think of a good name for me?:
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Old 2010-06-23, 13:09   Link #25594
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Super-Vivio, action!! I choose A
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Old 2010-06-23, 13:16   Link #25595
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A, because I can't see Vivio just leaving someone to their own devices.
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Old 2010-06-23, 14:29   Link #25596
synaesthetic
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Sorry I've been suspiciously absent and unproductive on both false light and Altered Course.

The Original Work Plotbunny has started gnawing on my foot and as my original work takes priority over any fanfic, it's been getting all the attention. A new idea (as usual, I can never finish a work to save my life) which I will briefly outline below if anyone's interested in discussing it/reading it as it's written.

Spoiler for pieces of an unfamiliar world:


Hopefully I will be able to finish this one since it's a larger work composed of short stories which have interconnected plots.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:20   Link #25597
Rising Dragon
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Put me down for A as well. I'm pretty sure Nanoha would've stressed the importance of helping others to Vivio.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:35   Link #25598
deathcurse
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Finally, I have internet again! Anyways, here's to trying to catch up a bit with my backlog...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
So... Here's a little something...

Honestly, I don't think it's complete, but I'll see what (if any) comments I get for it.

Spoiler for Day in the Life Chapter 37:


I wonder how many people want to kill me right now...

*Claims the page in the name of protective shields*
I think it’s incredibly difficult for me to see Signum duelling with anyone (but Fate ) and have difficulty, because I’m such a Signum-is-awesome-period fangirl . But about the fight itself—it was well-written, enough movement mixed with thoughts and description, but at the same time it’s not what I’d expect from a Signum-fight. Both Signum, Fate and Vita seem to me like characters who would fight in a style that never really has them stop, they’d be constantly darting and moving and going from one attack straight into another without pause. But that’s just my opinion on them, in terms of a “feeling”-thing .

Quote:
"You threatened Hayate." Zafira growled out and took into the air after her. "I don't care about your name."
GO ZAFFY! Very nice .

Quote:
"Well... I have to admit..." Vince said as he moved towards her slowly, his axe blade dragged along the ground as blood fell from his arm to the floor. "I've never met anyone who could give me such a fight... Signum, huh?" He swung his axe to the side. "I'll make sure that everyone knows of who you really were when you die. A powerful warrior."
This paragraph confused me a little…has Vince simply never tangled with anyone from Nanoha-canon before, or is he so powerful that he’s never been beaten before? And I’d think that Signum would already be pretty well known as a warrior, etc, so Vince’s comments seem overly dramatic at best, stupidly redundant at worst . Unless you were trying for a “big-headed ego” personality with Vince?

And good for Zafira, getting a Big Damn Heroes moment at the end there . Poor guy doesn’t usually get enough of them in fanfiction! ^^

Overall, the chapter was okay, it just seems a little odd to me that the Wolkenritter got their asses kicked so badly/were caught so off guard all the time by their opponents .

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
A short, featuring Miranda, since I haven't done one of those in awhile. I'm honestly a little mixed on this piece, but it was an idea I had that I wanted to get out.

Spoiler for Building Tolerance:


No real comments this time around; Miranda is still alive, so that by itself should say where this takes place during the Shadowverse timeline.
This does have me thinking…what’s the average age of a Shadow? Is Lutecia younger, the same or older than the average age of a new recruit? Because from reading this, it seems like usually the recruits would be older, able to fit in with bar scenes and such, for Miranda’s reaction to Lutecia learning how to drink being distasteful.

I love the little moments of unspoken communication between Miranda and Lutecia, it really shows how perceptive and sharp both of them are, to be able to grasp what the other might be thinking straight away. You have quite the talent for leaving things unsaid yet still precisely clear about what you mean to say .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
This is a short about Vita's past and present. I dedicate this one to Nanya, a true friend

Spoiler for Cold No Longer:


Spoiler for note:


Also uploaded Materials no Jikan to FF.net. It was originally gonna be a short, but it ended up being long enough (by my standards) to stand alone.
Imagining a master cruel enough to deliberately pick a walk-in freezer as a room to house his “tools” is just heartwrenching . What a sad image…

This actually has me thinking of a story short idea, where one of the Wolkenritter’s old masters wasn’t cruel to them, but still differed from how Hayate treated them? It could be interesting to see if the Wolkenritter love Hayate only because she’s kind to them, or if there is something special about Hayate…

Anyways, nice short! ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Well, it still doesn't have a title yet, but hey, it still has Fate! And Bardiche! That should count for something!

Spoiler for She seems to have spent too much time with Nanoha...:


Previously:

Chapter 1
Is this the same Yaris from “Steel Queen”?

Interesting story, it approaches the series from a heavy Enforcer stand-point, but not entirely as a simple mission but also as a bit of a training/different perspective on Fate. Love how Bardiche neatly interrupts a tense scene by setting up and proceeding to blow the room to bits !

And sorry, but the last few words about "burning sunlight" has me thinking....VAMPIRE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKN117 View Post
I don't like starting a fic without having my facts straight, only to receive a TORRENT of corrections and "actually"s and "this is wrong"s. I prefer to have everything sorted out and understood before fingers hit the keyboard.
Just do what I do, and slap an "AU" sign to it when things go off! Haha, well, I actually like it when I get all those corrections--it forces me to evaluate whether that point is essential in my story (so to cut it or to change it), which helps me with editing and tightening up the plot. Plus, it's a great compliment, for people to have read and poured over your story enough to give feedback like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
First off, I have to say that thus far, this version of the story seems to flow much better. Auris's initial scenes do a better job of introducing her character from her own perspective. And you do a better job of emphasizing the tension between Hayate's actions as a General, as Capitol City Defense Force Commander, and as adviser to Intelligence Oversight Subcommittee and the expectations of her actions as a friend and a heroic character. For example, the little snippet of conversation with Nanoha that Auris overhears, or the brand new Fate/Rein scene (which also got to introduce the GAS Intel Director's name).

(I rather miss the Fate-drives-Hayate-home scene, but I'm assuming that it just got moved to post-Trial Day 1 where it would fit better anyway.)
Thanks! I tried to take into account all the previous comments, and also once I started to tighten the plot I wanted to add a bit more foreshadowing and introduce certain characters earlier .

(Don’t sorry, that scene is still there, after Trial Day 1 as you guessed ^^.)

Quote:
I also note that the Mayor is mentioned early here, in the Fate/Rein scene--this is good, since it adds his name to the reader's awareness early (plus, you're doing so amid other High Muckety-Mucks such as Adviser Fils, so it doesn't have a flashing neon "pay attention here!" sign).
Thanks for noticing! As always, it’s so rewarding when a reviewer points those kinds of meta-story elements out!

Quote:
One correction to the NSIS conference room scene: you have a "Charlie" speak up mid-scene (I seem to remember that name from one or two of RB's Shadowverse fics, actually), but he wasn't mentioned in the "Auris watched their reactions" paragraph which acts as the roll call for the scene; either he needs to be added there or a sentence or two of introduction should be added when he speaks up.
Ah, well, with that scene I only mentioned certain Shadows by name (my OCs, some of RB’s OCs, and also Lutecia), while assuming that the room is packed with other unnamed Shadows. I didn’t introduce Charlie earlier because he doesn’t pop up again in the story, while nearly all of the ones who are named do .


Quote:
Likewise, the opening scenes of the trial are definitely improved. The dialogue flows much better, for one thing. Likewise, properly presenting the initial opening statements as opening statements flows better with RL trial procedure (where attorneys present evidence to make their case, only arguing...well, officially arguing, since obviously the whole presentation of evidence is also done in a way to argue the case as is the questioning...at the beginning and end, except at the appellate level).
LOL, I only understood one word in ten there , but I’m glad to have done something that looks semi-realistic! All the crime shows I’ve been watching lately must have paid off ^^.

Quote:
Fate and Nanoha commenting on what they see is good, too, because it shows the reader a commentary on what happened "on-stage" through the eyes of characters we know (plus, it helps frame the analysis of the scene for us, so if there's something in a scene that's going to be important later but which you want to redirect attention away from, these kinds of scenes can help focus reader attention where you want it). Plus it helps to spell out some of the moral conflicts in terms we, the readers, know, through the eyes of the characters.
Yes, it’ll be fun to play with misdirection later on!

Quote:
A couple of mistakes here, though: in the second press report, you state that "The last TSAB officer murder occurred five years ago during the Scaglietti Incident..." Actually, that one sentence contains three apparent mistakes:

(a) It's the "JS Incident," officially.
(b) If it was "five years ago," then Lutecia's only fifteen! I know this story is AU to Shadowverse fanon, but that means that she's only been a Shadow for two years and that Chrono's lost his job at least eight years earlier than in fanon! I think you may have been going for "fifteen years ago" or thereabouts...
(c) I find it hard to believe that the entire TSAB has not lost a single officer in the line of duty over five years, given all the criminal cases they investigate!
Ah crap , yes, I’ll fix that in the next draft . I didn’t edit everything entirely through after changing my timeline to match up with yours and Syn’s (and it’s fine even if CNS isn’t Shadows-canon, it was fun to do and also the increase in age makes the scenes more believable), so I must have left the years in that section!

Ah okay, I’ll work around with that TSAB officer murder thing…the difficulty being, the point of that section was to contrast that: 1) TSAB officers are hard to kill, so while the Numbers managed, being combat cyborgs, what does that say about Raven? and 2) What kind of sentence the Numbers got, as opposed to what kind of sentence Raven might get for the same crime.

Quote:
One suggestion: You might spend some time in the early paragraphs where the Judge comes in describing the courtroom so the reader gets a visual--in addition, when you describe the jury, you can take the time to point them out as TSAB officers and what their role is, so you can differentiate this Midchildan trial from the kind of trials one has in various Earth systems.

Another point: written cue cards? Would Mid's sci-fi society use such things? I'd assume Jettal would have some sort of communications terminal (like Vivio's in ViVid ch. 1) by which he could organize his notes as well as immediately access case-file details in the trial...
Okay, thanks! I’ll add that in, I just skipped over it in my first draft as I was nervous about writing the trial and just wanted to get it over with!

And ….I use lots of paper documents in CNS, since there’s something about it that’s easier to write than techno-babble all the time! But I’ll fix it ^^. And I've got the backbone of the rest of Trial Day 1 done, but I just need to flesh it out.
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:40   Link #25599
FlameSparkZ
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Originally Posted by Satashi View Post
Part 7 Vivio CYOA.Can anyone think of a good name for me?
How about...Vivid Life?

Looks like A = Trap, but okay, I'll fall for it


EDIT: Page claim for...foreshadowing
*disappears into the dark of night....*
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:54   Link #25600
00-Raiser
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Naturally the only choice is A!
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