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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-08-27, 16:06   Link #301
Genei Killua
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Hmm, I think though, that the Yondaime would've kept on getting stronger for at least 10-20 years. He died pretty young, afterall. Also, although he might not have been a ninjutsu specialist, his genius at ninjutsu at least ranks along with Orochimaru. Afterall, we only know of 2 jutsu he left behind. One contained the most powerful demon in the Naruto world, and the other is one of the highest tai/nin class jutsus around. How many more of these amazing creations are there? He created these all at a relatively young, age, too, compared to Orochimaru and Tsunade who came up with amazing techniques later in life.
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Old 2004-08-27, 17:52   Link #302
hokagenaruto3
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I think it's simple. The 3th was called greatest among all other shinobi "god of shinobi" but Yondaime became Hokage while the 3th was alive, thus surpassing him, because being Hokage means being the strongest person in the village and if you are ellected while the former Hokage is allive just means the other one is just surpassed... right?
And if 4th surpassed him at such a young age, who knows how strong he might have become doubling his age, let's say at his 46? INSANE!!!
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:09   Link #303
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3
I think it's simple. The 3th was called greatest among all other shinobi "god of shinobi" but Yondaime became Hokage while the 3th was alive, thus surpassing him, because being Hokage means being the strongest person in the village and if you are ellected while the former Hokage is allive just means the other one is just surpassed... right?
No. By this point in the discussion I shouldn't even have to explain why .

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Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3
And if 4th surpassed him at such a young age, who knows how strong he might have become doubling his age, let's say at his 46? INSANE!!!
Yes...he would have l33t r0x0r3d or something like that, right?
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:11   Link #304
Hunter
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If the 3rd thought he needed to let the title of Hokage, he should have a good reason for that and the only one I can see is that he thought that he started to be too old and that at this age he wasn't really very stronger than his chosen sucessor.

And that means that if despite that he's still known as the strongest ever, he should have lost a significant part of his strength in his fifty
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:16   Link #305
hokagenaruto3
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Jiraiya is in his fifties and I don't think he's weaker than before. Neither are tsunade and Oro. please correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. that l33t roxored thing... are you making fun of me?
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:25   Link #306
Hunter
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If you were fool enough to waste your time to read my freakin' huge discussion with Macbrother, you would know that I do think that the peak of power of the Sannin was when they were younger
But if you would have read it, you would know that Macbrother heavily disagree with me so basically you can think what you want

But then why the 3rd gave up the job to the 4th?
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:32   Link #307
hokagenaruto3
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HUNTER YOU ARE A FUNNY GUY!!!
you know people.
I would NEVER read that discussion. waaaaaay too much info (that from a guy that reads a lotta big books).
your conversations with macbrother are like the clash of the 'big brain' titans LOL.
anyway to answer you:
Because the 4th had surpassed him. (somehow this answer doesn't fit).
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:32   Link #308
Shadamehr
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Originally Posted by Hunter
But then why the 3rd gave up the job to the 4th?
'cuz "Being Hokage is a shit job"

I'd imagine he spent his retirement doing Jiraiya-style "research." Must have been a real bummer when the 4th died and he had to go back to being a respectable hokage
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:35   Link #309
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i dunno if the 4rth was better than the 3rd when he gave him title of hokage. I think its likely he felt the 4rth would surpass him with time, and maybe he felt the 4rth truely had a better will than him, and would make better decesions. Also he had been hokage all his life maybe he wanted to be not a hokage for awhile. But really its hard to compare ninja's in truth you beating one guy doesnt mean your stronger than everyone else he was able to beat. Once you reach a certain level it all depends on teh situation i think. Anyhow eventually we ll see more info about the 4rth if kishimoto remembers, seems the world is barreling high speed into foward motion now, without much time to look back
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:39   Link #310
hokagenaruto3
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Yeah we still don't know shit about the 4th. We can only speculate.
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:56   Link #311
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3
Because the 4th had surpassed him. (somehow this answer doesn't fit).
*sighs because I remember something like this discussion taking place something like 59 times since I've been here*

At the age that the 4th took over the job of Hokage, he may have been stronger than Sarutobi. That is a very real possibility.

What that does NOT mean is that 'the strongest is the leader. Period. Without question.' If that were the case, then in some places the leader would be changing every day.

As soon as someone breaks his wrist, he's not Kage anymore. He can't form seals and therefore can't fight as well as someone else.
When his wrist heals, he's Kage again.

Also, there was a discussion about who would take over after Sandaime. If the selection process was 'strongest, PERIOD' then there would have been no question of the successor, right?

And yes, the r0x0rs thing was a dig because we don't know how strong Yondaime would have been, true, but you seem to imply that he would have been somewhere in the vicinity of twice as strong at twice the age...

Or, at the very least, it goes something like, "I've been working out for a year, and I can bench press 250 pounds instead of 100. Imagine how strong I'll be in twenty years..."
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Old 2004-08-27, 19:59   Link #312
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3
your conversations with macbrother are like the clash of the 'big brain' titans LOL.
Believe me, that's more the clash between two guys with too much time in their hands


And Shadamehr, you forget his crystal ball, which channel do you think he watched with? ^^
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Old 2004-08-27, 22:33   Link #313
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First of all,

Quote:
Believe me, that's more the clash between two guys with too much time in their hands
lol, so true. Anyways, on with the mandatory rebuttals :P

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Your bad faith is just laughable, all these point were answer to the effect of age on Ninja in general and thus on the Sannin and Yondaime as well, just re-read your point about 'john the ninja' lol, it was all your argument used to say that the Sannin were stronger than when they were younger and thus that the 4th would have became even stronger and stronger during the 25 next years (and not just during a certain time).
Eh, first of all, what? My bad faith? Anyways, actually all those points had little to do with Yondaime. Do you know how we got on the subject? I said Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his strength and legend, whereas you said he was the strongest he was probably gonna be at 25. Then I provided to show examples using 'shinobi' to show that hey, with new ninjutsu learned over time, despite aging, they may in fact grow stronger, as stronger ninjutsu typically overwhelm weaker jutsu.

My point is only emphasized by Sarutobi, Yondaime, etc they are in fact geniuses, ninjutsu specialists who would more than probably learned and/or created more jutsu with time. The point of the sannin was that we had actual data sets of people at 50 who don't show even a hint of being hindered or weakened by age. You tried to argue well they aren't regular ninja, I can't use that for the general case, but then again I'm using them to prove my point about Sarutobi and Yondaime, who are far from the general case as well.

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And no the Sannin do not make a perfect example of how the geniuses grow with age given that we don't don't how their strength grow since their youth.
The fact that they're still strong doesn't mean that they are stronger. Sarutobi was still strong, he wasn't stronger than when he was young.
They have new jutsu? Yeah that doesn't prove that it's enough to compensate their young health.
You have no evidence of the contrary you just wish for because you like the idea.

When I say a perfect example, I mean to say that they are of the same category (legendarily strong, genius, etc) like Yondaime, therefore it's similar data. And no, lol we don't know how their strength grew (or fell), but we do know that with their new jutsu, experience, etc, they could probably (or in the case of Orochimaru) certainly defeat their younger counterparts. And wish? lol. Let's not get carried away.

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Don't make me laugh, you know nothing either about that, all your points are completely guesses since the beginning.
Eh? The only thing I know is what I said. Sarutobi had 30+ odd years as hokage. Yondaime had 3. Surely you are better able to build up your legend and showcase you strength in 30 years than you are 3.

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If you admit that wisdom doesn't come automatically with age then my point remains, you have no point on the evolution of the 4th, just wish.

And genius doesn't mean wisdom at all, actually many genius aren't wise and lack of common sense for the very fact that they're not common.
Oro is a genius I wouldn't call him wise.
Admit? I never said it in the first place. And it's true, there are many different types of genius, but as I said before, typically when genius is thrown around (which I do think it's waaaay overused in Naruto) it's almost always referring to battle ability, learning jutsu, etc. I am here referring to it in the same way, just as I am referring to wisdom and how it would relate to fighting ability, which with someone who is a genius at fighting ability I would imagine their wisdom with it would certainly increase with the more battles they fought. And yes, in the grand spectrum things, I agree with the words of Sarutobi. Orochimaru is a fool.

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No, you use unprecise words to try to make point, does knowledge will improve with age? Yeah in all probability, does Jutsu knowledge will improve with age? Just maybe.
And finally do new jutsus will improve strength?
Once again just maybe, any jutsu aren't enough to improve consequently the strength of the user or Kakashi would be Kage level since a long time.
It's not un-precision, just don't take the words outside of it's context. Obviously we are referring to fighting ability, obviously my use of wisdom is going to refer to wisdom as it would relate in a fight. Does jutsu knowledge improve with age? Likely, not maybe. No shinobi I know just completely quit attempting to learn as they grow older. Even Tsunade, in a fallen state, where all she gave a shit about was money, created a new jutsu. Does new jutsu significantly increase strength? No, it doesn't have to, but look what it did for Oro, Tsunade, Yondaime, etc. Of course new jutsu aren't going to increase Kakashi's ability significanlty, he's greatly limited by his chakra capacity, until/if/when he can increase that, he'll always be second-rate compared to his sensei, the sannin, etc.

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You didn't explained anything to begin with, you merely stated your belief.
You just said that if there must be a difference then it's noticeable because... that doesn't fit with your point so difference : trace.
That's not an exaplanation that's just your wish again and again.
No, I didn't say if there is a difference it had to be noticable. There certainly could be a difference but it's so small we can't notice it, in fact that's precisely what I said. But, if the difference is so small its un-noticable, what's the point of mentioning it? And again, my wish? lol.

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My evidence was the complete fallen state of Sarutobi that you could only countered by your usual answer when you have no answer : 'it's different in the world of Naruto', without any evidence of that btw.
Sarutobi was an old man, 67, when he faught Orochimaru. That is well beyond the point of age we are discussing, I never said it took 67 years to establish his legend. What's more relavent to our discussion is the abilities of the sannin, which don't appear to have suffered one bit.

As for Oro, no, that doesn't put him out of the point, that only proves my point, he created a new jutsu given time which helps him defeat old age. I would say that's improving strength with jutsu, wouldn't you? If we are solely talking about how age effects Oro, then yes, now with the jutsu he's got an X-factor, but still, do you think w/o the immortality jutsu he would've fared any worse against Sarutobi? Hardly. As for Tsunade, agian, there's nothing showing the younger Tsunade would have a significant advantage enough to beat the older one to a pulp. I'm aware you say 'if' and therefore are just saying that it's possible, but that is a very big if.

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You don't say it but you reason as it's the case, Oro doesn't lose half of his chakra, he takes a body having its own stamina adding the power of his own soul, actually if the stolen body is well trained and powerful it's can be even better than previously especially if Oro's original body wasn't that good because Taijutsu wasn't his speciality.
Btw if it's obviously possible to create chakra imbued with more of one of the two energy, the result is unstable.
Okay, so are you saying here his legendary chakra is more tied to his soul then his actual body, so switching bodies will be irrelavent to his chakra capacity? While possible (and would explain why his chakra is still enormous with the new body), that doesn't then explain why age effects chakra capacity, if it's tied to the soul, not the aging body. (It seems the concept of the immortal soul exists in 'Naruto', Zabuza, Sandaime, etc referred to this)

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And I think Tsunade was pretty clear about that when she said that she will be alright when her body would return to its young form.
The very fact that her physical strength remains the same than 30 years ago whereas the age and the state of her body out of her jutsu is in a pitiful and even older state that it should be due to her jutsu shows that.
If that's the case, why would Jiraiya, Orochimaru, etc, still be surprised, or remark that she 'still' has that legendary strength, whereas if she was still in her prime, that would be obvious. As for Tsunade's statement, A&A's translation says "It's alright, I can get back in my young form when I rest a bit." That says to me, form, that she's referring to her appearance, not necessarily back to her prime or legendary abilities.

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I didn't say that the effects of age are constant, I said that these effect start to appear before 50 years old.
Indeed, but please show me where it affected a shinobi's ability :P Again, my overall point here being yes, the effects of age may very well begin before 50, but the health and good standing of the shinobi (or sannin, at least) don't start to make a noticable and rapid difference until later in age.

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Oh and it was more like a 20~25 years old Orochimaru, he's not in his old body anymore remember?
Yes, but let's be real here, do you seriously think being 50 would've affected the outcome of the fight? Oro was hardly fighting at all througout the entire fight.

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This is exactly what you said.
Yes, in my quote, but not what you claimed I said. "Againg process is exaggerated and therefore, we can conclude it's non-existant" is very different from "aging process is either very slow, or non-existant." The former is implication, the latter is a union. Furthermore, the latter implies we don't know, but just going by appearance, whereas the former implies I'm making some sort of definitive statement, which I'm not.

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What other mean has 'You must sign the contract with the jutsu to see the god of death than this one?
You merely didn't see that he said signed with the jutsu and thus assumed that you should sign a contract with the Shinigami before -which is still possible btw, but not said.
I don't know, in fact that statement in both the manga translation I have and A&A's is very confusing. A contract is by definition an agreement between two parties, how the hell is a 'jutsu' considered a party or an entity? And you are correct, I did miss that little tidbit. :P I do think however that the latter (what I said) is more logical, for the above reason.

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I don't know, that's why I said that we know nothing about this jutsu, but where is your imagination suddenly?
A contract with a heaven guard to borrow some souls for the week end for example ^^
My imagination fails me because I don't think it's very plausible that Oro makes a contract with anyone or anything due to the nature of the jutsu. He uses the sacrifce as placeholders for the souls, how he summons the souls is again a nuiance, even further, how he would've summoned Yondaime from the belly of the death god (if he is indeed there) is also beyond me, but again, the original point here being whether or not Oro would or could've completed this jutsu by 25, which is still unlikely any way you look at it.

The many missions he was engaging in, the fact that he hadn't been turned down has Hokage yet and we have nothing to show he was completely evil before then, surely someone of normal mind would not try to learn a jutsu such as this. Again, it's way more likely he got turned down and then started working on these 'evil' jutsu like Edo Tensei and the immortality one. In fact, in the manga translation, one of the anbu members says "your behavior has changed as well." Meaning, before then, Oro was probably not exhibiting the evilness which would be necessary to learn/create these kinjutsu.

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I did, you just can't handle to admit that you didn't know what you talked about.
The shinigami coming to take the soul are utterly common stuff for japanese, they're used to the death (:P) in many mangas, movies, books, etc.
You didn't know it, that's all and that's not big a deal.
No you didn't. You simply said the nature of shinigami is common knowledge to the Japanese. That did not answer my question. I don't mind not knowing the nature of the shinigami, obviously since I'm not Japanese, nor do I regularly look into, research, or study Japanese mythology. I merely asked for the reference that they are indeed multiple, since every reference to the death god was 'the', not 'a'.

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They were already considered as worthless, re-read what was the epitaph of Dosu by Kabuto...
Besides there is no indication that they were trained personally by Oro.
And in the end there is nothing to discuss about : they were used as sacrifice, so obviously Oro has no use for them anymore.
Zaku was armless and Kin wasn't even as useful as Sakura, he used them at their upmost utility : as corpses.
Fair enough, however my original point remains: Edo Tensei likely requires live bodies sacrificed specifically for the purpose of the jutsu. The entire part was in reference to where you said:

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Besides Oro has plenty of corpses to dispose
-----

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My bad, the way you say this I thought you meant to pick up already dead body, but if that so I don't understand what you mean, care to reformulate your point?
See above.

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I checked the anime and the manga and no, you just cut off the sentence of the 1st to make look like he's surprised or wonder what happens which is clearly wrong.
The 2nd merely said that it was the Edo Tensei and praised Orochimaru then the 1st just said 'if that's the case, Sarutobi, we must fight you', showing that he got the situation and knew that he should fight Sarutobi given that he was summoned.

No surprise at all about the jutsu itself.
I cut off the sentence because that part is obvious, of course if he was summoned he's going to have to fight Sarutobi, that part should be obvious whether you know of Edo Tensei or not. The point was, instead of replying with something definitive, he words it with "if that's so" as if "hmm, if what you're saying is true" (that he summoned them with a kinjutsu) as if he didn't himself know in the first place.

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That's just priceless
Equally as priceless, you leaving this out of the quote:

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With this in mind, we move to ninjutsu/genjutsu users. Like Macbrother said, in this aspect ninjutsu is more like magic. The practionicers of these jutsus are more along the lines of sorcerers than track runners. In fiction (since there are, to my knowledge, no established and credible decent amount of spellcasters in the real world) the best magicians are the older, wiser ones. The ones with more experience and training. So, in this form, physical prowess plays almost no role in the effectiveness of the person.
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I find really funny your ability to read what you want to read and not what is written
Indeed, it seems at least we are in agreement about each other on this point. Of course the rest of the stuff is also true, but that doesn't contradict or 'answer' (as you like to say) what I said, as I said they were part spell-caster, i.e., a part of them (their jutsu knowledge) will likely only grow more powerful with age.

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Not for what we know, he was probably more diversified like Jiraiya.
The point I was getting at here was that they were both considered genius and both created jutsu (both of Yondaime's in fact, being ninjutsu, I'm wondering where you're getting this 'diversified idea)

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Not only It's just anime filler but anyway there is no indication an a particulary incredible moves here.
The top one is filler, the below one is in fact in the manga.

Spoiler:


And here I was beginning to think your memory of the manga was photographic. You see? It shows how age can affect you, Hunter-sensei :P Oh, and yeah, I would consider movment so fast that you can't even clearly see their images to be fairly incredible movement for people who should be 25 years slower than their prime. (unless perhaps in their prime they moved at some speed beyond all recognition, which I don't think likely.)

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You sure make look like your point is certain, if not I wouldn't even have started this discussion to begin with given that there is no real fact about it and that it's just about beliefs.
No, in fact I said in my first post we'll never know for sure.

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I like how you try to change what I said with your stupid sentence in bold.
I said : right when they reach the peak in their field.
And so Scott Richter known as the spame king for example, or Serguei Bubka known since his youth until he was really old for an athlete as the beast pole vaulter ever, Schumacher for the F1 race, lol MJ as the King of the Pop when he was young maybe, Gaary Kasparov the Russian Bear of the check, or even Elvis Presley as The King, etc.
lol, I thought you would like that, the main reason I did it is to make it a more better comparison to Yondaime, who compared to the time the rest of the hokages spent, had 'just started.' But yeah I was a little sneaky there so examples of them being in their peak suffices.

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I don't think so, I think he was the strongest way before he gained the title of professor and learned all the jutsu of Konoha for example.
Actually I think that the title Professor also have to do with the fact that he raised the Sannin, and I think he was already the strongest at this point.
Well they say specifically that the professor has to do with knowing all the jutsu in Konoha, it's possibly referring to the sannin as well, but, meh, anyway. What I mean is, There would be certain reasons for being called the 'god of the shinobi.' I would think one of those reasons would be for knowing all the jutsu, that would certainly improve your ability to fight, to be able to react to any situation whatsoever, I think that has alot to do with it.
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Old 2004-08-28, 11:43   Link #314
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
First of all,...
nice essay. I give it an F however....only cuz it took wayyyy too long to read
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Old 2004-08-30, 16:39   Link #315
Hunter
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lol, so true. Anyways, on with the mandatory rebuttals :P
At least we agree on something :P

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Eh, first of all, what? My bad faith? Anyways, actually all those points had little to do with Yondaime. Do you know how we got on the subject? I said Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his strength and legend, whereas you said he was the strongest he was probably gonna be at 25. Then I provided to show examples using 'shinobi' to show that hey, with new ninjutsu learned over time, despite aging, they may in fact grow stronger, as stronger ninjutsu typically overwhelm weaker jutsu.
Exactly, and all this discussion about how Ninja in general grow stronger or not while aging was complete part of why you thought the Sannin were stronger now than before and thus why Yondaime would have became stronger.

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My point is only emphasized by Sarutobi, Yondaime, etc they are in fact geniuses, ninjutsu specialists who would more than probably learned and/or created more jutsu with time. The point of the sannin was that we had actual data sets of people at 50 who don't show even a hint of being hindered or weakened by age. You tried to argue well they aren't regular ninja, I can't use that for the general case, but then again I'm using them to prove my point about Sarutobi and Yondaime, who are far from the general case as well.
My point was to say that it's even less the case for the regular ninja who will never create new jutsu, who aren't genius and who -by the age of 25- would have already learned the jutsu of their clan or the one they're able to use given their capacity anyway.
They will polish their skill with experience but probably never learn new trick after a certain age.

Now yes, The Sannin and their kind are different than the average Ninja Joe.
Which means that they're far stronger than them, not that age isn't a burden even if they can compensate it better than others because of their greatness.

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When I say a perfect example, I mean to say that they are of the same category (legendarily strong, genius, etc) like Yondaime, therefore it's similar data. And no, lol we don't know how their strength grew (or fell), but we do know that with their new jutsu, experience, etc, they could probably (or in the case of Orochimaru) certainly defeat their younger counterparts. And wish? lol. Let's not get carried away.
No we don't, except for Orochimaru because he's still in his prime and has more experience more jutsu, etc.
Oro precisely created a jutsu to avoid the effect of age, you just can't use him to say that age isn't a factor of weakness.

For the two others, you just have no clue, there is no absolutely no 'certainely' here.

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Eh? The only thing I know is what I said. Sarutobi had 30+ odd years as hokage. Yondaime had 3. Surely you are better able to build up your legend and showcase you strength in 30 years than you are 3.
I will just copy and past your own answer : Except you make this statement out of ignorance, because you at no point in time know when and what age Sarutobi was when he established whatever legend he did, whatever feat he accomplished.

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Admit? I never said it in the first place.
Yes you did Macbrother, each times you present one of your point, you act as if it -at least- sure at 95% whereas it's usually based on nothing but how you would like it to be.
Once again it's why I answered to you in the first place, if not I would have just agree to disagree.

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And it's true, there are many different types of genius, but as I said before, typically when genius is thrown around (which I do think it's waaaay overused in Naruto) it's almost always referring to battle ability, learning jutsu, etc. I am here referring to it in the same way, just as I am referring to wisdom and how it would relate to fighting ability, which with someone who is a genius at fighting ability I would imagine their wisdom with it would certainly increase with the more battles they fought. And yes, in the grand spectrum things, I agree with the words of Sarutobi. Orochimaru is a fool.
Yeah it's because the word Tensai in japanese has many possible nuance but is always translated as genius.
You talk of accumulation of knowledge, that's experience not wisdom, you use this word out of its context.
If you talk only of fighting ability then use the proper terms, no need to say wisdom if you mean experience,that just leads to misunderstanding.

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Does jutsu knowledge improve with age? Likely, not maybe. No shinobi I know just completely quit attempting to learn as they grow older. Even Tsunade, in a fallen state, where all she gave a shit about was money, created a new jutsu. Does new jutsu significantly increase strength? No, it doesn't have to, but look what it did for Oro, Tsunade, Yondaime, etc. Of course new jutsu aren't going to increase Kakashi's ability significanlty, he's greatly limited by his chakra capacity, until/if/when he can increase that, he'll always be second-rate compared to his sensei, the sannin, etc.
Oh? You know many Shinobi?
Let me reformulate that, did you see old ninja learning new jutsu and keep training?
Even for the Sannin, when did Jiraiya learn the Rasengan from the 4th? When he was about in his 35 at max given that the 4th died not long after that.
When did Tsunade create her jutsu? She had 25~30 years to do it and it doesn't seem to be something new.
Notice also that Oro this jutsu freak was only interested by the new jutsu of Tsunade, he obviously knew the other capacities that Jiraiya and Tsunade showed which leads to think that even the Sannin uses the Jutsu they used in their youth.

I do think Oro developped more jutsu because it's his absolute main goal after all.

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No, I didn't say if there is a difference it had to be noticable. There certainly could be a difference but it's so small we can't notice it, in fact that's precisely what I said. But, if the difference is so small its un-noticable, what's the point of mentioning it? And again, my wish? lol.
Sorry I meant unnoticeable and not noticeable.

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Sarutobi was an old man, 67, when he faught Orochimaru. That is well beyond the point of age we are discussing, I never said it took 67 years to establish his legend. What's more relavent to our discussion is the abilities of the sannin, which don't appear to have suffered one bit.
I don't speak of his legend, I speak of his strength.
And no the Sannin aren't more relavent given that you don't know that their overall strength is the same as before.

Btw when I say we don't know I mean it, we don't know if they're as strong, stronger or weaker than they were.

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As for Oro, no, that doesn't put him out of the point, that only proves my point, he created a new jutsu given time which helps him defeat old age.
Bullshit plain and simple.
As I said above We're discussing of the effect of age not time, using Oro who isn't old in moronic.
In this case you can also use Naruto, he's a proof that time allows you to gain more jutsu, but oh guess what he's not old.
Neither is Oro.

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I would say that's improving strength with jutsu, wouldn't you? If we are solely talking about how age effects Oro, then yes, now with the jutsu he's got an X-factor, but still, do you think w/o the immortality jutsu he would've fared any worse against Sarutobi? Hardly.
Actually it's possible, the 3rd probably wouldn't have had as much problem to tear off thez soul of a less healthy and older body, enough to kill Oro along with him?
I don't know, even if frankly I would say no.

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As for Tsunade, agian, there's nothing showing the younger Tsunade would have a significant advantage enough to beat the older one to a pulp. I'm aware you say 'if' and therefore are just saying that it's possible, but that is a very big if.
Actually, I think it's pretty little 'if', Tsunade was completely out of shape, it's stated plenty of time in the manga, she was tired just to run after Kabuto due to her lack of training.
I think it's quite probable that Tsunade in her twenty was healthier, better trained, had more endurance, etc.

Tsunade is the best example of the Sannin being strong in spite of their age and not thanks to their experience and new jutsu, she's out of shape, she abandonned being a ninja about 30 years ago, she couldn't even be a medic due to her phobia.
She basically thrown away her live wandering and gambling without goal during the major part of her life.
And still she's frighteningly strong.

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Okay, so are you saying here his legendary chakra is more tied to his soul then his actual body, so switching bodies will be irrelavent to his chakra capacity? While possible (and would explain why his chakra is still enormous with the new body), that doesn't then explain why age effects chakra capacity, if it's tied to the soul, not the aging body. (It seems the concept of the immortal soul exists in 'Naruto', Zabuza, Sandaime, etc referred to this)
No that's not what I said, Oro switching bodies with... I don't know let's say Sakura would probably lose some of his 'chakra producing capacity' because the body isn't well trained or in the body of Kimi because it wasn't healthy, etc.
In a fine body, with healthy organs and cells, etc. there is no reason that the chakra of Oro would decrease.

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If that's the case, why would Jiraiya, Orochimaru, etc, still be surprised, or remark that she 'still' has that legendary strength, whereas if she was still in her prime, that would be obvious.
Actually that pretty much prove that she shouldn't have kept a strength like that in her fifty normally.
And she isn't in her prime even if she transform her body.

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As for Tsunade's statement, A&A's translation says "It's alright, I can get back in my young form when I rest a bit." That says to me, form, that she's referring to her appearance, not necessarily back to her prime or legendary abilities.
Same as above, that doesn't mean that suddenly she become as she was in her youth (endurance, trained, blahblah, etc.), that means that under the effect of her ninjutsu she isn't a pitiful old thing who can't stop shaking with her arms which looks like wrinkled stick without muscles.

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Indeed, but please show me where it affected a shinobi's ability :P Again, my overall point here being yes, the effects of age may very well begin before 50, but the health and good standing of the shinobi (or sannin, at least) don't start to make a noticable and rapid difference until later in age.
And I say that you have no point to affirm that and that like I said above, to say that the Sannin are as strong, stronger or weaker than they were is just beliefs.
And that contrary to what you keep saying you really affirm that your point is 'right period' and not just merely possible most of the time.

For Oro I already answered above.

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Yes, in my quote, but not what you claimed I said. "Againg process is exaggerated and therefore, we can conclude it's non-existant" is very different from "aging process is either very slow, or non-existant." The former is implication, the latter is a union. Furthermore, the latter implies we don't know, but just going by appearance, whereas the former implies I'm making some sort of definitive statement, which I'm not.
Except that your point was : aging process is either very slow, or non-existant (note that it's already an affirmation without basis), the world of Naruto is exagerated and likely also in this case.
You made a direct connection between the aging process and the fact that the world of Naruto is exagerated.
And again you don't go by appearance, merely by what you would want and you state that in a way very near the 'definitive statement'.

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I don't know, in fact that statement in both the manga translation I have and A&A's is very confusing. A contract is by definition an agreement between two parties, how the hell is a 'jutsu' considered a party or an entity? And you are correct, I did miss that little tidbit. :P I do think however that the latter (what I said) is more logical, for the above reason.
I don't think the jutsu is the party with which you sign the contract, I said the jutsu is the contract with the Shinigami.

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My imagination fails me because I don't think it's very plausible that Oro makes a contract with anyone or anything due to the nature of the jutsu. He uses the sacrifce as placeholders for the souls, how he summons the souls is again a nuiance, even further, how he would've summoned Yondaime from the belly of the death god (if he is indeed there) is also beyond me, but again, the original point here being whether or not Oro would or could've completed this jutsu by 25, which is still unlikely any way you look at it.
Actually you still have no point to affirm that it's unlikely for Oro to knew this jutsu as 25.

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The many missions he was engaging in, the fact that he hadn't been turned down has Hokage yet and we have nothing to show he was completely evil before then, surely someone of normal mind would not try to learn a jutsu such as this. Again, it's way more likely he got turned down and then started working on these 'evil' jutsu like Edo Tensei and the immortality one. In fact, in the manga translation, one of the anbu members says "your behavior has changed as well." Meaning, before then, Oro was probably not exhibiting the evilness which would be necessary to learn/create these kinjutsu.
The missions didn't stop the 4th to create his jutsus, actually it never stopped anyone to learn a jutsu, the 3rd admitted that he always been aware of the twisted heart of Oro but that he blinded himself against it, Ibiko Morini said that when he was a child he thought already that Oro was absolutely terrifying and not even human, you saw how he acted at the death of Tsunade's brother, etc.

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No you didn't. You simply said the nature of shinigami is common knowledge to the Japanese. That did not answer my question. I don't mind not knowing the nature of the shinigami, obviously since I'm not Japanese, nor do I regularly look into, research, or study Japanese mythology. I merely asked for the reference that they are indeed multiple, since every reference to the death god was 'the', not 'a'.
Actually you asked specifically -in the world of Naruto-, which is why I say that it's just common knowledge, now you ask for a reference about that, frankly I don't think i have a particulary serious ref on internet (and especially a no japanese one) under my hand, but given that there are plenty of translated manga using the Shinigami such as Bleach, Death Note, Full Moon o Sagashite, Yami no Matsuei, Yu Yu Hakucho, etc. I suppose that a fast search on google could show you that the Shinigami are merely being that collect the soul.

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Fair enough, however my original point remains: Edo Tensei likely requires live bodies sacrificed specifically for the purpose of the jutsu. The entire part was in reference to where you said:
Ah okey so it's a misunderstanding since the beginning, indeed the Edo Tensai needs the life of someone to be activated, my point is that Oro could have done it with any captured ennemy on a time of war.

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I cut off the sentence because that part is obvious, of course if he was summoned he's going to have to fight Sarutobi, that part should be obvious whether you know of Edo Tensei or not. The point was, instead of replying with something definitive, he words it with "if that's so" as if "hmm, if what you're saying is true" (that he summoned them with a kinjutsu) as if he didn't himself know in the first place.
Well no, not 'of course', not if the Edo Tensai was an unknown jutsu for him and that he wouldn't have knew that it was possible to be resurected.
The sentence is a whole, the 2nd said that they were summoned by Oro so the 1st said : If that so we have to fight you, there is no interogation neither wondering at all in this sentence.

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Equally as priceless, you leaving this out of the quote:
Not at all, as I say I agree with that too, I didn't quote it only because you were already refering to it so it was useless to refresh your memory about it.
The problem is that in this part Raikage talked about how magician becomes indeed stronger with age... And you whipped out the part just after where he explained why Ninjas differ of these magicians!

So you can agree or disagree with him but in the end Raikage thinks as well that the Sannin aren't as strong as in their prime and than part of the myth of the Sannin is that they're still incredibly strong in spite of their oldness, so to say that he agreed with you is quite amazing.

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The point I was getting at here was that they were both considered genius and both created jutsu (both of Yondaime's in fact, being ninjutsu, I'm wondering where you're getting this 'diversified idea)
Because Oro is a jutsu freak obsessed with that, the creation of jutsu is the goal of his life, it wasn't the case fot the 4th.
And the Rasengan is a Ninjutsu used along with Taijutsu, as the Chidori it's a jutsu that you use in close combat, something at the antipode of Oro style.

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The top one is filler, the below one is in fact in the manga.
And here I was beginning to think your memory of the manga was photographic. You see? It shows how age can affect you, Hunter-sensei :P Oh, and yeah, I would consider movment so fast that you can't even clearly see their images to be fairly incredible movement for people who should be 25 years slower than their prime. (unless perhaps in their prime they moved at some speed beyond all recognition, which I don't think likely.)
lol actually i just messed up big time with my sentence, I meant the first was anime filler and there is no indication of an a particulary incredible moves for the 2nd :P
But whatever, the meaning remained more or less : there is no indication of incredible move.
Oro isn't known for his Taijutsu abilities anyways, Jiraiya never showed anything in this field either and if it should be Tsunade's strong point, she's now completely out of shape, paining to catch Kabuto who isn't particulary good in Taijutsu.

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No, in fact I said in my first post we'll never know for sure.
Must be a question of 'tone' I guess.

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lol, I thought you would like that, the main reason I did it is to make it a more better comparison to Yondaime, who compared to the time the rest of the hokages spent, had 'just started.' But yeah I was a little sneaky there so examples of them being in their peak suffices.
Btw the very fact that the 4th became Hokage means that he doesn't just 'started', he already showed that he was extremely strong before which is why he was chosen as Hokage (among other reasons).

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Well they say specifically that the professor has to do with knowing all the jutsu in Konoha, it's possibly referring to the sannin as well, but, meh, anyway. What I mean is, There would be certain reasons for being called the 'god of the shinobi.' I would think one of those reasons would be for knowing all the jutsu, that would certainly improve your ability to fight, to be able to react to any situation whatsoever, I think that has alot to do with it.
You basically agree with Oro here
My point is that the 3rd didn't have to wait to know and use all the jutsu of Konoha to be the strongest which is why I think he was known as the strongest before being known as the professor

Btw why did the 3rd thought he needed to let the title of Hokage in his fifty?
If he was even stronger in his fifty than in his prime and if age isn't a problem at all, why did he dropped the title of Hokage?
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Old 2004-09-12, 13:22   Link #316
Nub.Itachi
Uchiha Opposition
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Age: 28
Wow... you guys talk alot about the hokages. makes me wonder if you guys have forgotten about the people who cant become hokage because of obvious reasons, im talking about Itachi, at 18 he can most likely take on jiraiya and win. oro is afraid of him. Not to mention he has destroyed his entire clan.. if you ask me this is a real show of power.

The fact that the 3rd knew all of the Kohona jutsu's wont matter, since itachi can easly copy everyone of them since they arnt blood lines, also itachi more than likely knows numorous jutsus from other villages that sarutobi does not.. this also brings me back to the fact that itachi is only 18 and is obviously not in his prime think of the damage he could do at the age of 30 or even 50 after he has had time to develope himself even further.

As far as the 4th goes, we know hardly anything about thim other than the fact that he became hokage at an early age.. had a couple of amazing jutsus and also defeated kyubi at the cost of dieing. The fact of that is that Itachi never had a chance to fight kyubi and try to defeat him, and Itachi HAS learned alot of amazing jutsus prolly more so than the 4th.
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Old 2004-09-12, 13:57   Link #317
Timpen
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I think Naruto will become the strongest in his prime
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Old 2004-09-12, 13:58   Link #318
Nine Devil
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Join Date: Nov 2003
the 3rd would own Itachi in his prime.(I like Itachi the best but its almost a fact)

But prime Sarutobi vs prime Itachi don't know about that one.
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Old 2004-09-12, 13:59   Link #319
UnCauzi
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Join Date: May 2004
I think people need to remember that Sarutobi wanted Orochimaru to succeed him as Hokage but didn't chose him because his twisted ideals. That is a testament to Orochimarus strength, simply because it's definately NOT a testament to Orochimarus personality which is why the 3rd didn't chose him.

Remember this has nothing to do with the 4th being chosen OVER Orochimaru because Orochimaru had already been denied way before the 4th came into the picture. As far as who created the greatest jitsu?

I think immortality is a pretty big assed accomplishment lol and has more utility than committing suicide and sealing someone in deaths stomach. It has been stated that Orochimaru has "Kill myself and yourself" techniques of his own but his goal isn't too protect someone at all costs so why even use it?

I think if someone comes inevitably comes close to killing Orochimaru we might see
some evil shit though. In conclusion Orochimaru hasn't been pushed to the point where he had to use a trump card yet, remember all great ninjas save their best techniques for last. Orochimaru is a great ninja I doubt that he'd show his best techniques up front (IE the summoning of the dead was not his final technique, people just assume it was, it was just a way to screw with Sarutobi and weigh the scales heavily in Orochimarus favor) By the time Sarutobi grabbed him to seal him however he was unable to move. From that point Orochimaru had no arms so we COULDN'T see anymore moves Orochimaru may have.
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Old 2004-09-12, 14:16   Link #320
Animizzle
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nub.Itachi
Wow... you guys talk alot about the hokages. makes me wonder if you guys have forgotten about the people who cant become hokage because of obvious reasons, im talking about Itachi
Er..actually Itachi is in the poll...

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at 18 he can most likely take on jiraiya and win. oro is afraid of him. Not to mention he has destroyed his entire clan.. if you ask me this is a real show of power.
No, and he literally says that himself in episode 83 at 9:00 to be exact. He even goes as far to say that probably both (kisame and himself) would be killed if they were to challange Jiraya.
As for your clan argument, we don't know the strength of his members and he probably suprised them(your own godamn familiy!), not much of a showoff really..

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The fact that the 3rd knew all of the Kohona jutsu's wont matter, since itachi can easly copy everyone of them since they arnt blood lines, also itachi more than likely knows numorous jutsus from other villages that sarutobi does not..
IF has copied them, we know for a fact that the 3rd hokage knew them altho he specialized in Doton and Katon.
And what's with this "konoha jutsu's"? he knew almost all jutu's not just the konoha jutsu's.

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this also brings me back to the fact that itachi is only 18 and is obviously not in his prime think of the damage he could do at the age of 30 or even 50 after he has had time to develope himself even further.
That's beside the point, we are talking about who is the strongest or would have been in his prime, since Itachi still has a prime to come wich is unknown it is not relevant to the thread.

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As far as the 4th goes, we know hardly anything about thim other than the fact that he became hokage at an early age.. had a couple of amazing jutsus and also defeated kyubi at the cost of dieing. The fact of that is that Itachi never had a chance to fight kyubi and try to defeat him, and Itachi HAS learned alot of amazing jutsus prolly more so than the 4th.
Once again, Itachi acknowlegdes that Jirayia is stronger, The 4th was just as strong if not stronger (he is praised by Tsunade as the strongest, smartest kindest, shinobi) so it is obvious that Itachi is not stronger then the 4th was.
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