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Old 2010-06-25, 22:16   Link #11661
Judoh
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I suppose you'll just say he's hiding again, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.


At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion


Oh and you can't solve the knocking sound with an unobserved person either.

In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:19   Link #11662
TTR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I suppose you'll just say he's hiding again, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.


At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion


Oh and you can't solve the knocking sound with an unobserved person either.

In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
Kinzotriche was hiding under the table. After Kanon and Shanon (or, just shanon I guess lol) he throws the letter into the hallway with no one noticing him from under the table. When the clock strikes 00:00, he screams out "KNOCKING SOUND" which prompts everyone to ask "What was that knocking sound?" Thus they open the door in a confused state and see the letter.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:22   Link #11663
Judoh
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Kinzotriche was hiding under the table. After Kanon and Shanon (or, just shanon I guess lol) he throws the letter into the hallway with no one noticing him from under the table. When the clock strikes 00:00, he screams out "KNOCKING SOUND" which prompts everyone to ask "What was that knocking sound?" Thus they open the door in a confused state and see the letter.
No one in the mansion placed the letter in the hallway. This includes doing so by all concepts, such as directly, indirectly, intentionally, coincidentally, and unintentionally.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:26   Link #11664
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh and you can't solve the knocking sound with an unobserved person either.
There is no need to have a knocking sound at all -- someone can be colluding with Kinzotrice and lying about hearing the knocking sound. Everyone else just believes them.

EDIT: Of course, the same applies to the letter itself, it doesn't have to be in the hallway. Rudolf lies about hearing the knock and finding the letter in the hallway when it is in fact found on the floor, to prevent a very nasty argument about who put it there.

What makes me wonder, though, is why exactly does this scene mention a tape recorder at all? There is no narrative need for it, and the record is never brought up again.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:26   Link #11665
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Aw I wanted to play ;-; Darn...

I'll counter with my insanity!

The time 24:00 technically doesn't exist. Clocks in 24 hour time actually go from 23:59 to 00:00, NOT 24:00. Thus, the observation of people outside of the mansion is faulty. This allows Kinzotrice to exist on a technicality not inside the mansion. i.e. Kinzo exists outside the mansion at 00:00

I still need to figure out a way to get the letter in the house...

I agree with Oliver, there is no need to prove a knocking sound because Rudolf (or the person who brought up the knock. Pretty sure it was Rudolf) is in cahoots with Kinzotriche.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:26   Link #11666
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What good does this theory do anyway? Sure it illustrates how ridiculous the person X theory can get, but this person doesn't even get a chance to murder anyone. Assuming your using Kinzo's body Kinzotrice is being burned alive in the middle of the game.

So I call Knox's 8th on who would be capable of doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What makes me wonder, though, is why exactly does this scene mention a tape recorder at all? There is no narrative need for it, and the record is never brought up again.
Erika suggested it
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:27   Link #11667
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
So I call Knox's 8th
Knox's 8th outright disproves Kinzotrice, but I don't think it can do a damn thing about the Pony Theory.

Sorry, Kinzotrice.

Edit: Actually, when it first came up, I believe someone pointed out that the ultimate way to "revive Beatrice" would be to "become Beatrice"...
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:30   Link #11668
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The ring was in the letter though right? Everyone recognized the headship ring came from the letter. Unless you can also say that everyone in the room is pretending that Battler is the head of the family since everyone who didn't accept it was outside of the room...

Wait, is that true?

The headship ring is a symbol of the headship and it does not truly exist. That is why the headship ring only shows up in episodes where a new head is found through the epitaph. The wax seal created by the headship ring is also faulty, they are just normal wax seals. However because everyone accepts that the letter came from the head, they use the symbol of the ring to express that idea. Thus, there is room for all 3 things: The letter, the knock sound, and the headship to have ALL been a lie perpetrated by the people in the room. My hint is that the objectors to Battler becoming the head (Krauss, Natsuhi, and Jessica) were not present to hear the sound, see the letter, or accept the ring.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:33   Link #11669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
The ring was in the letter though right? Everyone recognized the headship ring came from the letter. Unless you can also say that everyone in the room is pretending that Battler is the head of the family since everyone who didn't accept it was outside of the room...

Wait, is that true?
Everyone in the room believed that the epitaph was all about choosing the new head, so yes, they all accepted Battler.

Which means that he could have simply been given the ring, much like 1998's Eva probably was.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:37   Link #11670
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Erika suggested it
I meant something different.

The mention of a "tape set" which has recording capability existing in the dining hall is almost completely out of the blue. It apparently existed in there for years, as the principal user is said to have been Kinzo, but it was never detailed or mentioned in episodes 1-4. (in fact, the word 'tape' only occurs three times in all of Ep1-4, only once it means a cassette tape, and it uses that as an epithet too)

After the scene where it is mentioned in Ep5, where the conversation that occurs after Natsuhi and Krauss leave the dining hall would probably end up being recorded, if Rudolf did find a blank tape -- the conversation that would have to include either the knock or the lie about one! -- the tape set is never referred to again.

So what's the point of writing about one at all, space filler?
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:43   Link #11671
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
So what's the point of writing about one at all, space filler?
Rereading Ep1 after the fact makes it pretty obvious that there's no space filler in Umineko, I feel.

I think we're going to see that tape set again.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:51   Link #11672
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think we're going to see that tape set again.
As a side note, it makes the perfect vehicle for Kinzo detailing his wishes in Ep4 from beyond the grave -- which also happens in the dinner hall. Better than a written will in 1986, for his children if not for the law, because convincingly forging a sound at the time is far harder, and even now only halfway practical ways to synthesise arbitrary phrases in someone's voice exist, none of them are easy, all take good ears, a lot of man-hours, and rarely work well.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:55   Link #11673
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
As a side note, it makes the perfect vehicle for Kinzo detailing his wishes in Ep4 from beyond the grave -- which also happens in the dinner hall. Better than a written will in 1986, for his children if not for the law, because convincingly forging a sound at the time is far harder, and even now only halfway practical ways to synthesise arbitrary phrases in someone's voice exist, none of them are easy, all take good ears, a lot of man-hours, and rarely work well.
I was about to say an audio will.

It might also be possible to use recordings to explain the phone calls in episode 4 and 5 as crank calls.
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Old 2010-06-25, 23:06   Link #11674
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Quote:
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As a side note, it makes the perfect vehicle for Kinzo detailing his wishes in Ep4 from beyond the grave -- which also happens in the dinner hall.

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo
, anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It might also be possible to use recordings to explain the phone calls in episode 4 and 5 as crank calls.
But that falls into the Geass-like "I knew you were going to respond in that exact way, you're so predictable ahaha" plot device, and that's so unrealistic it hurts.

I'd rather not go there.
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Old 2010-06-25, 23:18   Link #11675
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo
, anyone?
As I have explained before, 'to recognize existence' means 'to agree to say that one is alive', which is what Beatrice does for Sakutarou in that same episode in a similar manner. There can be any number of reasons to agree that Kinzo is alive, and being fooled by an audio tape monologue which shouts 'SHUT UP!' every few minutes works too.
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Old 2010-06-25, 23:38   Link #11676
Judoh
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But that falls into the Geass-like "I knew you were going to respond in that exact way, you're so predictable ahaha" plot device, and that's so unrealistic it hurts.

I'd rather not go there.
Since it's a recording you don't have to predict the exact thing someone will say, but you can guess what they "might" say. I guess you could look at it like a sound board there would be a tape for all the different responses. Like for example the card trick.

There are worse things that could happen. We could have poison Bon bon candies like in Naoki Urasawa's Monster.
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Old 2010-06-25, 23:39   Link #11677
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Kinzotrice is the best theory since the Gohda Accident Theory of ep2.
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Old 2010-06-25, 23:47   Link #11678
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There can be any number of reasons to agree that Kinzo is alive, and being fooled by an audio tape monologue which shouts 'SHUT UP!' every few minutes works too.
Wait, wasn't an audio tape monologue used in And Then There Were None at one point, or am I misremembering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Since it's a recording you don't have to predict the exact thing someone will say, but you can guess what they "might" say.
Look. A recording cannot hold a conversation, regardless of how well it's set up.

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Kinzotrice is the best theory since the Gohda Accident Theory of ep2.
This is truly anti-fantasy, eh?
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Old 2010-06-26, 00:09   Link #11679
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Wait, wasn't an audio tape monologue used in And Then There Were None at one point, or am I misremembering?
Yes there was, that's what it starts the whole mess with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Look. A recording cannot hold a conversation, regardless of how well it's set up.
Not in a general sense, surely, but with some specific people in specific circumstances it even happens accidentally sometimes - particularly with the people who don't really care what you're saying.
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Old 2010-06-26, 00:12   Link #11680
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzotrice is the best theory since the Gohda Accident Theory of ep2.
I'd love to see that one in greater detail. I only ever found you mentioning it existed.
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