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Old 2010-06-26, 00:34   Link #11681
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes there was, that's what it starts the whole mess with.
One massive point in the Kinzotape Theory's favor, then.

Furthermore, wasn't Kumasawa said to be very good at mimicking Kinzo's voice?

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not in a general sense, surely, but with some specific people in specific circumstances it even happens accidentally sometimes - particularly with the people who don't really care what you're saying.
Well, I suppose the Ep5 phone conversations could be recorded, but with Ep4... I don't even see a reason for it.
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Old 2010-06-26, 00:39   Link #11682
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Furthermore, wasn't Kumasawa said to be very good at mimicking Kinzo's voice?
If my memory serves me right, Kumasawa successfully feigned a panic (which apparently included minor screaming) at the fact that Kinzo overheard the siblings arguing about the inheritance through the door, got angry and left. I don't remember a statement that she actually mimicked his voice.
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Old 2010-06-26, 00:42   Link #11683
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If my memory serves me right, Kumasawa successfully feigned a panic (which apparently included minor screaming) at the fact that Kinzo overheard the siblings arguing about the inheritance through the door, got angry and left. I don't remember a statement that she actually mimicked his voice.
I believe she also faked the yelling coming from Kinzo's room that the relatives heard from time to time.

But I suppose an audio will (one designed to troll his children into accepting his continued existence) works a lot better, though.
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Old 2010-06-26, 04:27   Link #11684
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Who would ever do something so ridiculous as to claim that Kinzo may still be alive... >.>.... <.<
Anyways, Knox's 8th cannot disprove anything. Knox's 8th just states that Battler won't say something like "It was Kyrie," in the last episode and then the credits will roll. That is a bit of an exaggeration but one can claim any one event in Umineko is a clue that Oswalt didn't kill Lincoln. I know, I'm exaggerating again. I hope that my point got through even though I am joking quite a bit.
If we are talking about episode 5, I don't believe Kinzo was ever holding the phone and speaking into it. So all the children heard was an eccentric, old man in the background.
Also, the solution to the recognition of Kinzo's existence in episode 4 could be many things, it could be Battler's solution or everyone at the table could have agreed that a man named Kinzo Ushiromiya exists. Now remember, everyone needed money so they could have offered Krauss that they would all believe Kinzo is alive and stop prodding to meet him if Krauss payed them out.
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Old 2010-06-26, 04:49   Link #11685
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Because "Shannon" isn't her real name, if you ask me.
Well, yeah, the character sheet tells us so much... but why does Beatrice keep calling her that, then? It's like... if you declared that Leafsnail is dead, there'd be leeway for saying only my online persona is dead and not my actual self. Perhaps multiple personalities aren't even needed to manipulate the red (in case you're wondering why this is important, it allows the human behind Shannon or Kanon to be the culprit even after being declared dead).

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I thought about it, and... it actually works pretty well. One of the big things that any "-trice" theory fails to explain is Kyrie and Battler's first impressions of Suit-Beatrice... that is, how she looks exactly like the witch in the portrait, whose Western appearance resembles no one else on the island.
Is a problem. You can imagine Maria being tricked by, say, Jessica dressed in her Marissa outfit, but Battler or Kyrie would surely see through it :/. And the human Beatrice is dead.

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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Kinzotriche was hiding under the table. After Kanon and Shanon (or, just shanon I guess lol) he throws the letter into the hallway with no one noticing him from under the table. When the clock strikes 00:00, he screams out "KNOCKING SOUND" which prompts everyone to ask "What was that knocking sound?" Thus they open the door in a confused state and see the letter.


Tape is interesting. And considering Kinzo is meant to be extremely grumpy, it wouldn't be surprising if he "ignored" everything his children said in protest.

I suppose Maria's testimony can almost always be ignored. She's honest in an extremely perverse way (she'll follow almost any instruction even if it means lying...).
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Old 2010-06-26, 04:52   Link #11686
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Is a problem. You can imagine Maria being tricked by, say, Jessica dressed in her Marissa outfit, but Battler or Kyrie would surely see through it :/. And the human Beatrice is dead
I would like to point out that deaths may be faked and if they are then some Hollywood level make-up artist would be required. Anyways, the same person may be able to make a person look like someone else...
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Old 2010-06-26, 04:58   Link #11687
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If I'm interpreting your statement correctly as Knox's 8th is essentially useless for the purposes of disproving a theory, I disagree with your assessment Smeckledorf. Knox's 8th states that "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." Now, of course we run into the issue of whether or not Umineko is a mystery that follows the decalogue, but since it's been stated both in red that the mystery is solvable from Beato's perspective and 07's made it so that the story can be solved within the first 4 novels, I'm gonna work under the assumption that it applies (of course barring that 07 has some ridiculously twisted logic about what is "solvable).
If we believe that the mystery can be solved with the clues available to us, to borrow your own exaggerated example, I can pretty clearly state that any theory involving Abraham Lincoln traveling in time to kill everyone on Rokkenjima is false because there is no clue that would reasonably lead to that conclusion. That is essentially disproving a theory no?
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:15   Link #11688
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
If I'm interpreting your statement correctly as Knox's 8th is essentially useless for the purposes of disproving a theory, I disagree with your assessment Smeckledorf. Knox's 8th states that "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." Now, of course we run into the issue of whether or not Umineko is a mystery that follows the decalogue, but since it's been stated both in red that the mystery is solvable from Beato's perspective and 07's made it so that the story can be solved within the first 4 novels, I'm gonna work under the assumption that it applies (of course barring that 07 has some ridiculously twisted logic about what is "solvable).
If we believe that the mystery can be solved with the clues available to us, to borrow your own exaggerated example, I can pretty clearly state that any theory involving Abraham Lincoln traveling in time to kill everyone on Rokkenjima is false because there is no clue that would reasonably lead to that conclusion. That is essentially disproving a theory no?
How can you deny Lincolntrice so casually??
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:22   Link #11689
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
If I'm interpreting your statement correctly as Knox's 8th is essentially useless for the purposes of disproving a theory, I disagree with your assessment Smeckledorf. Knox's 8th states that "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." Now, of course we run into the issue of whether or not Umineko is a mystery that follows the decalogue, but since it's been stated both in red that the mystery is solvable from Beato's perspective and 07's made it so that the story can be solved within the first 4 novels, I'm gonna work under the assumption that it applies (of course barring that 07 has some ridiculously twisted logic about what is "solvable).
If we believe that the mystery can be solved with the clues available to us, to borrow your own exaggerated example, I can pretty clearly state that any theory involving Abraham Lincoln traveling in time to kill everyone on Rokkenjima is false because there is no clue that would reasonably lead to that conclusion. That is essentially disproving a theory no?
You are in a way correct and incorrect. You are trying to interpret my statement but you should be trying, in a similar fashion, to interpret the story. The problem will come to interpretations because people can interpret things in a completely different way. Now, I am going to be an ass and take your challenge to connect Lincoln to this. Everyone dies before October 5th 1985 ends, correct? Lincoln was born 02/12/1809.
10/05/1985
02/12/1809
Those are the dates.
10/22/1980 <- Those are the numbers in Lincoln's birthday moved around.
We have 10/x/198x for the last day anyone is alive in Umineko where x is 5. 220 is leftover. To get a 5 we will take it out of 220. 220/5=44.
We now have 10/x/1985 with 44 leftover. (44+1)/5=9 and we have our last 5.
There we have it, 10/05/1985. But what about the 1 and 9? 1 and 9 can make 19 as in Lincoln the 19th person.
Disclaimer - This is just a joke for an exaggerated response to my exaggeration. I do not actually believe this, none of you should. Numbers can be manipulated too easily.
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:33   Link #11690
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I absolutely agree with you Smeckledorf. Of course, interpretations completely throw that off and by no means was I intending to say that it was a particularly useful tool for solving the story. Maybe I'm just very bothered by the statement that it can't disprove anything at all, but I have to believe that I can at least cull theories with solutions that can't be drawn anywhere from the story or else I might as well give up on trying to figure this out.

Quote:
How can you deny Lincolntrice so casually??
I'll state it in blue: Lincoln is way too manly with his pipestove hat to be caught wearing a dress and therefore is not Lincolntrice. You heard it here first!
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:37   Link #11691
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Well, yeah, the character sheet tells us so much... but why does Beatrice keep calling her that, then? It's like... if you declared that Leafsnail is dead, there'd be leeway for saying only my online persona is dead and not my actual self. Perhaps multiple personalities aren't even needed to manipulate the red (in case you're wondering why this is important, it allows the human behind Shannon or Kanon to be the culprit even after being declared dead).
Why does Beatrice keep calling her that? The more interesting question is, why do we still do? Don't we know her "real" name?

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a "real" name.
There is such thing as a "legal" name, but even that comes with issues - it's not forever, because you might want to change part of it when you get married, it's not strictly identical to itself across your life as people may outlive their own orthography, and your language may allow for diminutive forms on it which are still 'the same' name but don't sound anywhere close, so Richard somehow turns into Dick.

Even a legal name is a product of convention, we agree to call a person by that name and consider it "real", but in daily life we call people by nicknames they themselves invent or we invent for them and nobody is surprised.

So why does Beatrice keep calling Shannon by that name? Because everyone else does, Battler in particular. Nobody except George uses the name 'Sayo' for her, and even George is not very consistent. Sure, this allows Beatrice to conceal the fact that Shannon has a different, undisclosed legal name.

But anyone on the island can have one too.
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:39   Link #11692
Smeckledorf
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I agree with what you say, delta, the solution has been in the story since episode 4. However, theories should be based on facts presented in the story. So, if anything is in fact a theory there should be some reasonable credibility to it. Thus, it is my opinion that Knox's 8th will not disprove a theory.

Edit: Oliver's last point is one that I like. Seeing as Beatrice uses Kanon's piece way more often than anyone else for her hat tricks. Kanon should be the one you are pointing pitchforks at. However, I do believe they are both culprits, not together but separately. I don't have much proof in Shanon's regard but I do think she is a crazy b**ch.
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:45   Link #11693
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Now, I am going to be an ass and take your challenge to connect Lincoln to this.
...
Disclaimer - This is just a joke for an exaggerated response to my exaggeration. I do not actually believe this, none of you should. Numbers can be manipulated too easily.
Picking someone who was living at the time will produce slightly better (ahem) results. Why? Time travel being possible would make many things Beatrice did silly. In Ep3, Beatrice performs resurrection, when the strategically superior action would be to take George back in time to the moment Shannon dies and let him protect her.
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:52   Link #11694
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Beatrice can only bring things from past points in time to the present. Counterpoint! Lincoln is back on the suspect list!!!! No seriously, forget I ever argued that point. =(
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Old 2010-06-26, 05:59   Link #11695
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Beatrice can only bring things from past points in time to the present. Counterpoint! Lincoln is back on the suspect list!!!!
Then the better way would be to bring Shannon back from the past to George. And to save them from Evatrice she would only need to bring them forward in time past the endgame event.

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No seriously, forget I ever argued that point. =(
Oh ok.
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Old 2010-06-26, 06:02   Link #11696
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Will not disprove and cannot disprove are two very different beasts and I'm glad we agree that while it "can" disprove theories, it isn't very useful in denying reasonable theories and essentially won't.

On another note, what's everyone's opinion on the possibility that the reason Battler's return causes all these murders to happen is the jealousy of George over Shanon? Like George has planned to carry out a buncha murders on Rokkenjima for w/e reason but considers changing his mind if Shanon agrees to marry him. But then, plot twist, Battler comes back and stirs up forgotten feelings of love in Shanon and then George decides he'll carry out his plans cause she rejects his proposal. Other than the glaring problem of why Battler wouldn't be the first target in the murders as opposed to the last, are there any problems with this line of thought?
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Old 2010-06-26, 06:14   Link #11697
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I don't know about that. I always thought of Shannon being confused over Battler's return. We know Battler had a crush on Shanon and Shanon for SOME REASON remembers Battler's cheesy pick up line. So, I like to think she had some feelings towards Battler. So, after Battler returns Shanon goes crazy. Yada Yada Yada people die. However, I don't see her as a stabbing/shooting people murderer. I always thought she would be more of the type to plant a bomb and then whisk a select few to safety.
I think Kanon is the type to kill people with his own hand. He is a different type of crazy. Also, I think I the duel between Kanon and Shanon shows the conflicting manor in which they both try to go upon the same goal.

As for George, he seems very calm and collect. I can't see him snapping. Though, you never know.
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Old 2010-06-26, 06:16   Link #11698
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Other than the glaring problem of why Battler wouldn't be the first target in the murders as opposed to the last, are there any problems with this line of thought?
Not as such, as far as I can see. It's just that there are other theories that assume the same love triangle and work more smoothly for narrative or characterisation reasons by bringing more sacrifices to Knox to support them.

Knox 8th may not really be strong enough to deny a theory completely, because in such a large text, as of yet undiscovered clues may still be found, but a theory that satisfies the 8th as it is normally trumps the one that doesn't.
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Old 2010-06-26, 06:22   Link #11699
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Well, every theory should satisfy the 8th which is why I stated that the 8th does not disprove any theory. It would be like making a lego skyscraper except you don't use legos, that wouldn't be a lego skyscraper now, would it? In the same way theories are developed with a general understand of how something works. Without a general understanding you are not composing a theory.
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Old 2010-06-26, 06:26   Link #11700
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Mmm, I was actually thinking Shanon wasn't crazy and that she herself doesn't really want to commit murders and is just sorta following the flow of George's evil master plan. Course I haven't read 6 yet, so maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like ep 4s Gaap fight could be a sign of George actually being a very spiteful rather than calm person. Sure, he SEEMS calm and collected cause he seems in control of all his actions with his fancy capoeira schenanigans. But think of it this way: given a fight in which your opponent is pretty clearly trying to kill you, the reasonable thing to do would be to immediately kill them so they can't kill you. Why in the world would he decide to do all these halted moves if not to utterly humiliate them for pleasure?
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