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Old 2010-06-26, 15:02   Link #11741
Judoh
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Matching the parents with the stakes is like trying to match your personality with the Zodiac signs. All of them can fit for just about everything and everyone depending on your opinion. That's why there has been no progress with this theory, and it's not a puzzle either it's just useless speculation that goes absolutely nowhere.
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:04   Link #11742
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Matching the parents with the stakes is like trying to match your personality with the Zodiac signs. All of them can fit for just about everything and everyone. That's why there has been no progress with this theory, and it's not a puzzle either it's just useless speculation that goes nowhere.
My favorite remains "Hideyoshi is Gluttony because he's fat." Well... okay? He's a stocky guy, but when does he ever demonstrate a particularly rapacious desire for just about any indulgence? He's one of the more restrained and level-headed people around. It's a stretch to make everything fit.
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:10   Link #11743
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I'm not really matching them to sins (a difficult task - they're all guilty of lots of sins) so much as to the personalities of the stakes themselves. Belphegor (sloth) and Hideyoshi do certainly have a lot in common (odd how Belphegor isn't actually guilty of her sin, though).
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:10   Link #11744
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
My favorite remains "Hideyoshi is Gluttony because he's fat." Well... okay? He's a stocky guy, but when does he ever demonstrate a particularly rapacious desire for just about any indulgence? He's one of the more restrained and level-headed people around. It's a stretch to make everything fit.
In fact, do any of the Ushiromiya express any strong desires at all? I remember George expressing his desire for a family and castle of his own, Eva expressing desire for headship (dormant), Jessica longing for living in a city...

Well, who else?
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:15   Link #11745
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Rudolf sortof matches Beelzebub in terms of sexual desire... and the rivalry between Mammon and Beelz kinda matches the rivalry between Eva and Rudolf.

Incidentally - on "Hideyoshi is gluttony because he's fat", apparently the murderer in ep 1 thought so .
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:18   Link #11746
Judoh
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In fact, do any of the Ushiromiya express any strong desires at all? I remember George expressing his desire for a family and castle of his own, Eva expressing desire for headship (dormant), Jessica longing for living in a city...

Well, who else?
Rosa has a very strong desire to remarry and demonstrates this by leaving her daughter behind on vacation days.

Nobody knows what's going on in Rudolf's head, but we know that Kyrie has a lot of faith in him.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Rudolf sortof matches Beelzebub in terms of sexual desire... and the rivalry between Mammon and Beelz kinda matches the rivalry between Eva and Rudolf.
Rudolf keeps saying that's all in the past over and over. I really don't think he's as bad as he used to be. And what Rivalry? Rudolf and Eva don't go against each other at all.
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:43   Link #11747
Leafsnail
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Eh, misremembered the first scene of ep 3.

And whether it's in the past or not, it's still a sin he has to carry, I guess.

Whatever, doesn't really matter. It's just how I see the stakes (we know that other anti-mystery characters have real world equivalents, and I can't think of any better matches for the stakes).
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:51   Link #11748
Judoh
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Here is my question. If ALL of the characters MUST HAVE meta world equivalents. Why don't the Eiserne Jungfrau have any? Did we just skip over them because their not important? This representation thing is not something we MUST HAVE it's just something your convinced there SHOULD BE. Does it really help us understand the piece characters at all anymore than what we already knew?
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Old 2010-06-26, 15:57   Link #11749
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Actually the thought of absolute meta world equivalents falls flat at the Siestas doesn't it? Cause I certainly can't think of a real world equivalent on the island for them, clay rabbits being ignored. But does the Siesta's presence essentially guarantee the presence of at least 4 different kinds of guns on the island?
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:00   Link #11750
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Here is my question. If ALL of the characters MUST HAVE meta world equivalents. Why don't the Eiserne Jungfrau have any? Did we just skip over them because their not important? This representation thing is not something we MUST HAVE it's just something your convinced there SHOULD BE. Does it really help us understand the piece characters at all anymore than what we already knew?
Actually, I thought the Eiserne Jungfrau had a representation in the chapel key + the two study keys. This owing to the keys on their hats.

But like you said, this doesn't really need to be nor does it really help us understand very much...
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:03   Link #11751
Leafsnail
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Didn't say they must - just that, if they do, the parents are the best matches. The Jungfrau are kinda presented as "foreign" anyway (introduced to the island by Erika form outside).

How does it help us understand? Well, if we put it another way... what is the narrative purpose of the stakes? Eh, whatever. I'm not gonna fight this point to the death, it just helps me understand.

And the first 3 Siestas all represent ammo types, and all three of these kinds of ammo can be fed into the Winchester used in the story. Are these ammo kinds used? Maybe not, but there's definately at least two different bullets used (one which blasts heads to pieces, one which just leaves a little hole in the middle of the head). 556 does represent a gun though, so I dunno.
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:07   Link #11752
Judoh
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In the case of Ronove and Virgilia too we don't learn a lot about Genji and Kumasawa either.

All we learned about Genji is that he's faithful to his master

All we learned about Kumasawa is that she's a respected Mother or teacher figure who can be crafty.

These things are already known from statements in episode 1 and 2. Even if there are meta world representations they don't really do anything and they don't add in any new character development. In fact these characters don't even kill anybody so we also don't have any hints at them malicious characters. It's just pointless.
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:08   Link #11753
delita-umw-
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Mmm, I see, I knew the first three represented ammo, but didn't know they all could be fed into the Winchester. Interesting. Maybe 556 represents the game breaker? It's presence could be somewhat like Akasaka in Higurashi?
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:08   Link #11754
Marion
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Rudolf sortof matches Beelzebub in terms of sexual desire... and the rivalry between Mammon and Beelz kinda matches the rivalry between Eva and Rudolf.

Incidentally - on "Hideyoshi is gluttony because he's fat", apparently the murderer in ep 1 thought so .
If it was based on sexual desire only then Rudolf would be Lust. Gluttony is overindulgence in reference to EVERYTHING. That's what makes it so similar to Greed.

However, I think there is a definite reason that Rudolf fought Belphegor. I can't imagine Ryukishi making Kyrie fight her sin, but just throwing a random sister at Rudolf. When an author writes a story and includes a certain detail, it's there for a reason. This especially applies to mystery stories. You can say that how the stakes are matched up doesn't matter, but I think it does because it gives better insight to a character.

Rudolf is sloth to me because he is ultimately a very passive and lazy person. In EP 5 Kyrie was helping him with his issues with Krauss, even though she no longer works in his company as his business associate. Rather than acting on the lawsuit with a plan, Rudolf waited to see how another company fared in a similar case to decide what to do. Instead of paying attention to his family he pays attention more to himself, ignoring what others might think (EP 3 he outright said he wouldn't mind selling his spot on the hierarchy for money, while both Eva and Natsuhi said it would be selfish and disgraceful). Rather than thinking through he goes for cheap lazy tricks (he himself admitted that the duel with Belphegor was unfair to a point because he tricked her).

Nobody fits the definition of Sloth out of the seven adults better than him. Natsuhi is a works incredibly hard for the entire family's sake, Krauss at least attempts to take action, Eva works hard for the sake of her family, Kyrie is always trying her best to keep her shaky family afloat and primarily takes care of Ange and Hideyoshi is also working hard in his company. The only other person you can argue for sloth would be Rosa, but I personally think she fits Lust far better.
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:08   Link #11755
Oliver
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All of these can also be loaded into a .45 derringer, as a side note.

5.56x45mm is just the NATO standard ammo type. If she did show up, it would indeed imply a NATO-standard rifle, but she never does.
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:15   Link #11756
delita-umw-
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Ok, so we're pretty much guaranteed to have at least 2 guns on the island in the final game, which raises the question of where this mystery NATO rifle would come from. Hidden detective Kanon anyone?!
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:18   Link #11757
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Rudolf is sloth to me because he is ultimately a very passive and lazy person. In EP 5 Kyrie was helping him with his issues with Krauss, even though she no longer works in his company as his business associate. Rather than acting on the lawsuit with a plan, Rudolf waited to see how another company fared in a similar case to decide what to do. Instead of paying attention to his family he pays attention more to himself, ignoring what others might think (EP 3 he outright said he wouldn't mind selling his spot on the hierarchy for money, while both Eva and Natsuhi said it would be selfish and disgraceful). Rather than thinking through he goes for cheap lazy tricks (he himself admitted that the duel with Belphegor was unfair to a point because he tricked her).

Nobody fits the definition of Sloth out of the seven adults better than him. Natsuhi is a works incredibly hard for the entire family's sake, Krauss at least attempts to take action, Eva works hard for the sake of her family, Kyrie is always trying her best to keep her shaky family afloat and primarily takes care of Ange and Hideyoshi is also working hard in his company. The only other person you can argue for sloth would be Rosa, but I personally think she fits Lust far better.
Actually, that certainly makes sense. Then again, Belphegor doesn't really match sloth so much either... and there's still noone who really matches gluttony, heh.

Judoh - so... Ryu is just wasting our time during the anti-mystery sequences?
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:21   Link #11758
Judoh
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Judoh - so... Ryu is just wasting our time during the anti-mystery sequences?
I don't think anti-mystery means what you think it means.

and no that's really not what I'm saying. You can place any character in the stake's spot or in Gaap' s spot in episode 4 and get the same result you'd get with who the 'represent supposedly'.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-26 at 16:35.
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:32   Link #11759
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Ok, so we're pretty much guaranteed to have at least 2 guns on the island in the final game, which raises the question of where this mystery NATO rifle would come from. Hidden detective Kanon anyone?!
Amakusa has what has to be a sniper rifle of some kind, which is the only weapon described in the text that has a chance to be that 5.56 rifle at all. But sniper rifles chambered for 5.56 are a rarity, I actually didn't think any existed until I looked them up. Generally sniper rifles start at 7.62 and go up all the way to 20mm. I vote she simply doesn't exist, perished in battle with the Black Witch. Maybe Rosa broke it in her childhood or something.

.45 and .410 are the same, and definitely both can be loaded into this particular Winchester of Kinzo's, but .45 generally refers to a bullet, while .410 is a shotgun shell. 00 is actually neither, it's the size of a shotgun pellet (8.4mm) in a shotgun shell that can be loaded into any calibre for which shotgun shells exist. .410 also happens to be the smallest common shotgun round, which is why pistols which can load it exist -- in particular, derringers, and recently, revolvers, because these don't have to care about ejecting the shell.
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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-06-26, 16:35   Link #11760
siberius
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Or one of the people Battler thought was dead actually wasn't, and it was this person that killed Nanjo, later succumbing to their own injuries.

This allows Eva-Beatrice to declare this person as deceased in red.

Most people agree that this person has to be Kyrie. The TIPS even point out that stomach wounds aren't very fatal.
Sorry but I don't understand. The red states: "Kyrie is dead" so she is already dead at this point of time.
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