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Old 2010-06-26, 18:50   Link #11781
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Well we've already determined that Lincolntrice is time traveling so...

edit: Can we officially conclude that Raiza is the real mastermind behind Rokkenjima?
Hehehahahahahihihihihihi*cackle**cackle**cackle*.. .
Congratulations on finally catching on... Delitaaaaaaa! Using my time travel powers, I ventured back to 1986 to decimate the Ushiromiya family, so that you fools today could sit around your computers all day discussing such ridiculous concepts! I even went back even further to drag Lincoln into this whole mess... Kyahahahah...
This also explains why Kinzo has in his possession a sniper rifle from 1996. Everything fits...
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Old 2010-06-26, 20:59   Link #11782
Sentou
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You bastard! I could understand ruthlessly slaughtering tons of innocent people, but Lincoln? Why? He's Abraham Lincoln!
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:11   Link #11783
Smeckledorf
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Unless of course, Kinzo invented the sniper rifle and the culprit secretly sold off the plans later. No one ever learned that the plans came from Rokkenjima because the culprit wanted to keep it that way.
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:20   Link #11784
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
You bastard! I could understand ruthlessly slaughtering tons of innocent people, but Lincoln? Why? He's Abraham Lincoln!
Zehahaha... I'm Canadian, dude. I couldn't care less about those petty American politics... especially when I don't care much about my own.

This all aside, shouldn't we get back on topic?
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:41   Link #11785
TkMacintosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The witch's side can apparently pause and start the game any time they want. And Battler does that as GM apparently. Can they omit parts of a scene though? I'm not sure. Maybe under Oliver's editor theory they can.
I would think that because Meta-Battler had his eyes closed, his ears covered, and him screaming to drown out the voice, Meta-Battler never heard that part. So I'm thinking that when Meta-Battler finally openend his eyes and his ears, he realized that it was past that scene, so Piece-Battler doesn't have the memories of it...

OR.....Ryukishi07 just omitted it to -us- so we don't realize the truth behind it >.>
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:45   Link #11786
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
I would think that because Meta-Battler had his eyes closed, his ears covered, and him screaming to drown out the voice, Meta-Battler never heard that part. So I'm thinking that when Meta-Battler finally openend his eyes and his ears, he realized that it was past that scene, so Piece-Battler doesn't have the memories of it...

OR.....Ryukishi07 just omitted it to -us- so we don't realize the truth behind it >.>
That actually makes A LOT of sense. I never thought of looking at it that way before...
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:52   Link #11787
Raiza Sunozaki
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That is a good idea, and possibly a clever trick on Ryuukishi's part. Battler, being his innocent self, finds it hard to deal with the horrifying scenes of the early games. So he breaks down and shuts out the world, making it impossible to receive and clues in that state.
Assuming this is a game between us and Ryuukishi, it would be quite devious of him to exclude important clues of the game during these moments. Could we flip the chessboard around to assume now whenever Meta-Battler has a mental breakdown, something important is happening in-game?
This might explain why the early games feel so difficult, while the difficulty level given to some of them are lower than they appear to be.
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Old 2010-06-26, 22:56   Link #11788
TkMacintosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That actually makes A LOT of sense. I never thought of looking at it that way before...
You also have to remember that when Meta-Battler DOES close his eyes, cover his ears, and scream, it was at the point when Beatrice was defeating EVA-Beatrice....So yeah >.> That's all I got :x
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Old 2010-06-27, 07:25   Link #11789
Oliver
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Location: In a badly written story.
Abstract.

Can the Knox rules forbid the detective from fabricating hints to satisfy Knox 8th?

EDIT: And not so abstract. In Ep5, the following is said when Erika is introduced:

Bernkastel: "I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. The detective is not the culprit. No proof is needed to show this."
Lambda: "There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game the detective isn't the culprit has been proclaimed in red, so you don't need to consider the exception."

Now wait a minute.
  1. I have so far failed to find a variant of Knox rules which would provide any exception to Knox 7th. What exception clause are they talking about?
  2. Do they really mean to say that Knox 7th applies to this game only? Really?...

EDIT EDIT: Aha! Found the true original.

Quote:
VII. The detective must not himself commit the crime. This applies only where the author personally vouches for the statement that the detective is a detective; a criminal may legitimately dress up as a detective, as in the Secret of Chimneys, and delude the other actors in the story with forged references
I wonder, did anything of the sort happen in Ep1-4?... That is, did anyone dress up as Battler?
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-27 at 07:48.
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Old 2010-06-27, 09:35   Link #11790
Sentou
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I doubt it. First off, there has been no one who has been described as capable as passing as Battler, and nor has there been any evidence of another one of Battler's suits lying around.

Furthermore, that would limit the people capable of dressing up as Battler to Kyrie and Rudolf, as only they would know what he would be wearing to the reunion and thus be able to prepare a disguise in advance. The setup to have a fake Battler is more or less impossible, as unlike with Piece Beato, we lack the means, the person, and the motive for someone to pretend to be Battler.
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Old 2010-06-27, 11:15   Link #11791
Frisko
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However, Rosa did suspect Battler of being an impostor during the second game.
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Old 2010-06-27, 11:33   Link #11792
Sentou
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Yes, but Rosa lied in episode 2. She said she spoke to Kinzo, remember? Well, either she's being malicious, or she's being crazy.

In any case, common sense can tell us that the Battler we see as a piece is the Battler we know and love. Unless it's all part of Rudolf's ingenious plan to hit on Jessica and Shannon without them knowing, of course.
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Old 2010-06-27, 11:34   Link #11793
Renall
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In a sense, Battler is an impostor. He's not who others think he is. But he's also not who he himself thinks he is. I don't think he's an impostor in the sense Rosa was thinking. And even if he were, and Knox 7 didn't apply, when exactly was Battler in a position to do anything anyway?
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
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Old 2010-06-27, 12:38   Link #11794
Leafsnail
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Rosa also said she saw Beatrice in episode 2. So...

Come to think of it, what if "I" in "I am Ushiromya Asumu's ughugugh" refers only to meta-Battler? If they're two distinct entities, it could work out without Rudolf disguising himself.
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Old 2010-06-27, 12:56   Link #11795
Sentou
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I don't quite think it works like that. Beatrice claims to have killed various people in red, but it doesn't mean that she, a witch, killed them. Also, remember, Ange used the red to prove that she was Battler's sister. As things stand, the most we can get out of the Asumu trap Beato used in episode 4 is that another person named Battler exists, one that pretty much HAS to be female.

After all....

Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON

I propose this other Battler, if alive, is either Jessica or Piece Beatrice.

Piece Beatrice has the benefit of Meta-Beatrice using this name trap on Battler, mainly, how would Beato know how to snare Battler in such a precise manner?

Jessica has her immunity from the name constriction red text in episode 6, in addition to dubious circumstances with her birth.

And Oliver, I see what you are saying, but we have to work with clues which are presented. It's possible that Battler and George could have manically plotted to buy out the Ushiromiya family while the camera is not focused on them, but we have no scenes to indicate this. We're given nothing to work with.

This is more or less the whole "trust" thing at play here. We have to more or less trust the author to give us the proper clues needed to solve the story. If we suspect that things are happening with Battler which we don't see, well, we're basically not trusting the author. So I wouldn't quite believe that during these "downtimes" something critical happens with Battler that we are not aware of.

Last edited by Sentou; 2010-06-27 at 13:11.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:02   Link #11796
Oliver
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It's more about this... There are multiple moments in the story when Battler is essentially dormant and doing absolutely nothing. Like Renall just said, he isn't in a position to do anything anyway because for much of the time he's doing nothing interesting with the other cousins, and it's so uninteresting that we don't see it on screen at all. This starts being particularly prominent Ep3 onwards, though even in Ep1 there are still long periods when his activities remain not well defined.

What if something interesting does happen to him and the cousins during those periods and we just don't get told?
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:23   Link #11797
TTR
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
 
 
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Wasn't the point of those reds to kind of dance around the idea that having a mother is NOT the same as being born from someone?

IIRC the exact red has been, at least in the anime...:

右代宮戦人の母は右代宮明日夢でる。

Ushiromiya Battler's Mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.

俺は右代宮明日夢から生まれた。

I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.

Having a mother and being born from someone are two different ideas. This is supposed to open up wormholes for the "Jessica isn't Natsuhi's blood daughter" theories.

For example, I call my best friend my "mom" in real life (not kidding, real life example). We even are listed as mother and son on Facebook. Was I born from her? No. Does that make me any less of my REAL mother's son? Not really, I still have her blood.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:24   Link #11798
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON

I propose this other Battler, if alive, is either Jessica or Piece Beatrice.
You are transforming the red text in here in a way that may actually not be valid. The actual reds are:

Beatrice: "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler."
Battler: "Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born."
Battler: "It was from Ushiromiya ~~Asumu that I was born.~~"
Beatrice - "You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son."
Battler - "Ange is, ...my little sister."

Notice that "Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son" does NOT follow necessarily from this set if it refers to the Other Battler, so the Other Battler can still be male if it wants. In fact, no specific information about the Other Battler may be concluded other than that a creature like this has to exist or have existed. What does inevitably follow is:
  • This Battler, i.e. "I" and Ange share either a mother, or a father, or both. -- otherwise she couldn't be his little sister.
  • "I" was born from a woman named Ushiromiya because that's where his red cuts off.
The only ways this can happen if Ange is indeed Kyrie's daughter, which we have no reason whatsoever to doubt, is by This Battler being the son of Rudolf+Kyrie or Krauss+Kyrie or Rudolf+Eva, (Rosa is exempt by being too young, Natsuhi is pure and faithful) but everything beside Rudolf+Kyrie is so incredibly unlikely and nonsensical, that we should consider it proven that This Battler is the son of Rudolf+Kyrie. But that's beside the point.

We still can't say anything about the Other Battler, and the Other Battler is highly dangerous because it poisons the formal context -- no red that mentions Battler can be trusted while this monster is around.

There has to be some other clever way to solve the paradox of "My name is X but I am not X."
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:35   Link #11799
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Having a mother and being born from someone are two different ideas. This is supposed to open up wormholes for the "Jessica isn't Natsuhi's blood daughter" theories.
That sort of works, but that isn't the problem here, because someone named "Ushiromiya Battler" still gets to be born from Ushiromiya Asumu in red.

For reference, here's the original Japanese for all of this mess:

Quote:
妾は黄金の魔女、ベアトリーチェ。そして右代宮金蔵の孫、右代宮戦人と戦うためにこのゲームを 開催した。
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler.

....
右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。俺の名は右代宮戦人#ffffffだ。右代宮戦人は、右代宮明日夢 から生まれた。
Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.


そなたは、右代宮明日夢から生まれた。
"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you were born."
俺は、右代宮...
It was from Ushiromiya...

そなたは、右代宮明日夢の息子ではない
You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.


縁寿は、……俺の妹だ
Ange is, ......my little sister

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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:36   Link #11800
Sentou
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TTR - I'm using the game red texts, which clearly indicate that a Ushiromiya Battler was born from a Ushiromiya Asumu. In a nutshell, we do have a Battler who was born from Asumu.

Oliver - This does indeed come down to an issue of the red text. Can a red text be wrong? Because there are two statements said about Battler not being Asumu's son.

One way to look at it is indeed to go for the contextual argument that implies THIS Battler is not Asumu's son. But the fact that it is mentioned twice, that it says Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son in ADDITION to Battler is not Asumu's son that makes me worry.(these two reds are used by Ange to snap Battler out of it, it's in the wiki if you think I am messing them up or something)

Sure, you could say that it's referring merely to the Battler we know and love. But, however, that is not quite the case. The series of red texts, including the two critical ones I listed, state that Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu, and paradoxically, Battler is not Asumu's son.

Plain and simple, the red text would be wrong if there is a Battler who is Asumu's son. If the texts used referred to Battler in the second person only, I'd agree with you, but we have these troubling third person texts that make a Battler being a son of Asumu more or less break the red text. Period. I believe the child in question being a female solves this problem quite neatly.

Any other approach doesn't make too much sense.
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